Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
You are mixing up wilderness protection with national parks, Chuck. Parts of national parks are managed for wilderness values but the NPS is also charged with providing for visitors as well as protecting resources. There will be no industrial development in national parks, as mandated by the Park Service's Organic Act. The tracts proposed for development are not in parks. But many of them have been found to have qualities of roadlessness, solitude, and other factord that could qualify them for wilderness protection. One of Utah's most precious resources is its pristine wilderness, which should be protected for the future. -- Joe ------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:13 PM MDT Larry Holmes wrote:
Chuck, that could almost apply to any place in Nevada. 73
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Affordable energy is an actual need for a lot of people, too, Joe.
Look, I'm not a "drill, baby, drill" advocate. But likewise I haven't found a lot of solitude in most of the National Parks I've visited, at least during 3 seasons of the year. I'm sure you would be mostly alone in January in most of them. They are typically crawling with thousands of people, all crammed into small spaces around the edges of the cordoned-off vistas. The places where visitors are allowed are not wilderness anymore.
You want solitude? Let's go to an isolated place here in the west I know of, about 70 miles north of Battle Mountain, Nevada. Not a foreign tourist, group of bicyclists, or family of of loud kids and dogs, for miles. Just the occassional cow and coyote. And no drilling rigs. No amazing red-rock formations either, but the sky is pretty darn dark.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And someday the sun will become a planetary nova. But looking at everything from that sort of standpoint is not helpful for our generation's real dilemmas. Wilderness and solitude may be actual needs for some people, including me. -- Joe
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At some point in time as the population continues to grow, we will need to access those resources. I think it's a false sense of stewardship to protect some of the areas now protected. We have need for some of those resources now. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
You are mixing up wilderness protection with national parks, Chuck. Parts of national parks are managed for wilderness values but the NPS is also charged with providing for visitors as well as protecting resources. There will be no industrial development in national parks, as mandated by the Park Service's Organic Act. The tracts proposed for development are not in parks. But many of them have been found to have qualities of roadlessness, solitude, and other factord that could qualify them for wilderness protection. One of Utah's most precious resources is its pristine wilderness, which should be protected for the future. -- Joe
------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:13 PM MDT Larry Holmes wrote:
Chuck, that could almost apply to any place in Nevada. 73
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Affordable energy is an actual need for a lot of people, too, Joe.
Look, I'm not a "drill, baby, drill" advocate. But likewise I haven't found a lot of solitude in most of the National Parks I've visited, at least during 3 seasons of the year. I'm sure you would be mostly alone in January in most of them. They are typically crawling with thousands of people, all crammed into small spaces around the edges of the cordoned-off vistas. The places where visitors are allowed are not wilderness anymore.
You want solitude? Let's go to an isolated place here in the west I know of, about 70 miles north of Battle Mountain, Nevada. Not a foreign tourist, group of bicyclists, or family of of loud kids and dogs, for miles. Just the occassional cow and coyote. And no drilling rigs. No amazing red-rock formations either, but the sky is pretty darn dark.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And someday the sun will become a planetary nova. But looking at everything from that sort of standpoint is not helpful for our generation's real dilemmas. Wilderness and solitude may be actual needs for some people, including me. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried
It is a false assumption to say we need these resources now, renewable sources are being largely ignored. Water is a more important resource than oil and gas in the SW, this shortage is here now.
At some point in time as the population continues to grow, we will need to
access those resources. I think it's a false sense of stewardship to protect some of the areas now protected. We have need for some of those resources now.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
You are mixing up wilderness protection with national parks, Chuck. Parts of national parks are managed for wilderness values but the NPS is also charged with providing for visitors as well as protecting resources. There will be no industrial development in national parks, as mandated by the Park Service's Organic Act. The tracts proposed for development are not in parks. But many of them have been found to have qualities of roadlessness, solitude, and other factord that could qualify them for wilderness protection. One of Utah's most precious resources is its pristine wilderness, which should be protected for the future. -- Joe
------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:13 PM MDT Larry Holmes wrote:
Chuck, that could almost apply to any place in Nevada. 73
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Affordable energy is an actual need for a lot of people, too, Joe.
Look, I'm not a "drill, baby, drill" advocate. But likewise I haven't found a lot of solitude in most of the National Parks I've visited, at least during 3 seasons of the year. I'm sure you would be mostly alone in January in most of them. They are typically crawling with thousands of people, all crammed into small spaces around the edges of the cordoned-off vistas. The places where visitors are allowed are not wilderness anymore.
You want solitude? Let's go to an isolated place here in the west I know of, about 70 miles north of Battle Mountain, Nevada. Not a foreign tourist, group of bicyclists, or family of of loud kids and dogs, for miles. Just the occassional cow and coyote. And no drilling rigs. No amazing red-rock formations either, but the sky is pretty darn dark.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And someday the sun will become a planetary nova. But looking at everything from that sort of standpoint is not helpful for our generation's real dilemmas. Wilderness and solitude may be actual needs for some people, including me. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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I agree about the water. We're being asked to conserve already. We're trying to spread the same amount of water to a growing population. There is an ongoing advertising campaign asking us to conserve. That affects the quality of life. What we need currently is more water infrastructure. We need more dams. Whether we need the oil and gas RIGHT NOW becomes a mute point. As Chuck and I said, in the face of an ever growing population, and that is world-wide, sooner or later we will need to tap all available resources or become a third-world world. We can exist on less than what we consume but as a nation, do we really want to? Oil and gas are still the best resources for our country. We have not developed a more efficient fuel for cars than gasoline. The additives currently being used add cost and decrease efficiency. We have an ever increasing demand for these resources. I'm not saying I like the alternative, not at all. I'm looking to the future and saying, this is the face of reality, this is the road we're going down. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
It is a false assumption to say we need these resources now, renewable sources are being largely ignored. Water is a more important resource than oil and gas in the SW, this shortage is here now.
At some point in time as the population continues to grow, we will need to
access those resources. I think it's a false sense of stewardship to protect some of the areas now protected. We have need for some of those resources now.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
You are mixing up wilderness protection with national parks, Chuck. Parts of national parks are managed for wilderness values but the NPS is also charged with providing for visitors as well as protecting resources. There will be no industrial development in national parks, as mandated by the Park Service's Organic Act. The tracts proposed for development are not in parks. But many of them have been found to have qualities of roadlessness, solitude, and other factord that could qualify them for wilderness protection. One of Utah's most precious resources is its pristine wilderness, which should be protected for the future. -- Joe
------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:13 PM MDT Larry Holmes wrote:
Chuck, that could almost apply to any place in Nevada. 73
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com>
wrote:
Affordable energy is an actual need for a lot of people, too, Joe.
Look, I'm not a "drill, baby, drill" advocate. But likewise I
haven't
found a lot of solitude in most of the National Parks I've visited, at least during 3 seasons of the year. I'm sure you would be mostly alone in January in most of them. They are typically crawling with thousands of people, all crammed into small spaces around the edges of the cordoned-off vistas. The places where visitors are allowed are not wilderness anymore.
You want solitude? Let's go to an isolated place here in the west I know of, about 70 miles north of Battle Mountain, Nevada. Not a foreign tourist, group of bicyclists, or family of of loud kids and dogs, for miles. Just the occassional cow and coyote. And no drilling rigs. No amazing red-rock formations either, but the sky is pretty darn dark.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
And someday the sun will become a planetary nova. But looking at everything from that sort of standpoint is not helpful for our
generation's
real dilemmas. Wilderness and solitude may be actual needs for some people, including me. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried
More dams is everyones solution but it ignores the big picture, the Colorado and Green Rivers cannot supply more water with pipelines. If Colorado carries out their plans for dams and pipelines it means more cut backs for Arizona, Nevada, and California. The problem cannot be solved with Dams and Pipelines, Dams and especially Pipelines are the problem. It is true Utah does not use it's share of the Colorado River Water, if it did the results would be catastrophic for down stream users.
The upstream use is why Lake Powell and Lake Mead cannot be brought to full pool. I agree about the water. We're being asked to conserve already. We're
trying to spread the same amount of water to a growing population. There is an ongoing advertising campaign asking us to conserve. That affects the quality of life. What we need currently is more water infrastructure. We need more dams.
Whether we need the oil and gas RIGHT NOW becomes a mute point. As Chuck and I said, in the face of an ever growing population, and that is world-wide, sooner or later we will need to tap all available resources or become a third-world world. We can exist on less than what we consume but as a nation, do we really want to?
Oil and gas are still the best resources for our country. We have not developed a more efficient fuel for cars than gasoline. The additives currently being used add cost and decrease efficiency. We have an ever increasing demand for these resources. I'm not saying I like the alternative, not at all. I'm looking to the future and saying, this is the face of reality, this is the road we're going down.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
It is a false assumption to say we need these resources now, renewable sources are being largely ignored. Water is a more important resource than oil and gas in the SW, this shortage is here now.
At some point in time as the population continues to grow, we will need to
access those resources. I think it's a false sense of stewardship to protect some of the areas now protected. We have need for some of those resources now.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
You are mixing up wilderness protection with national parks, Chuck. Parts of national parks are managed for wilderness values but the NPS is
also
charged with providing for visitors as well as protecting resources. There will be no industrial development in national parks, as mandated by the Park Service's Organic Act. The tracts proposed for development are not in parks. But many of them have been found to have qualities of roadlessness, solitude, and other factord that could qualify them for wilderness protection. One of Utah's most precious resources is its pristine wilderness, which should be protected for the future. -- Joe
------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:13 PM MDT Larry Holmes wrote:
Chuck, that could almost apply to any place in Nevada. 73
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Affordable energy is an actual need for a lot of people, too, Joe.
Look, I'm not a "drill, baby, drill" advocate. But likewise I haven't found a lot of solitude in most of the National Parks I've visited, at least during 3 seasons of the year. I'm sure you would be mostly alone in January in most of them. They are typically crawling with thousands of people, all crammed into small spaces around the edges of the cordoned-off vistas. The places where visitors are allowed are not wilderness anymore.
You want solitude? Let's go to an isolated place here in the west I know of, about 70 miles north of Battle Mountain, Nevada. Not a foreign tourist, group of bicyclists, or family of of loud kids and dogs, for miles. Just the occassional cow and coyote. And no drilling rigs. No amazing red-rock formations either, but the sky is pretty darn dark.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
And someday the sun will become a planetary nova. But looking at everything from that sort of standpoint is not helpful for our
generation's
real dilemmas. Wilderness and solitude may be actual needs for some people, including me. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Yes, intentionally, because that's been the direction of this discussion. Lighting from mining and drilling operations spoiling dark skies around the many national parks and monuments in Utah. Joe, I'm not siding with anybody on this venue, but trying to point out that there are many competing interests here. I actually value such things very much as you do, but think that the dark-sky and wilderness advocates are fighting a losing battle, mostly because they don't see the root cause and are probably incapable of winning the fight even if they do. If you want to stem drilling and mining, you need to stop population growth and greatly reduce the demand for such resources. As long as the population keeps growing, so will the need for physical natural resources. But that runs counter to the concept of growing an ecconomy and creating wealth. Markets must be enlarged in order to sell more product, in this case, fuels for energy production, which itself is needed to support every other business enterprise- which includes feeding that ever-growing population. In a world market, just stabilizing a population in a handful of countries won't cut it. It needs to be done world-wide. The greater the world's poplulation, the less likely untouched wilderness areas will be preserved. On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
You are mixing up wilderness protection with national parks, Chuck. Parts of national parks are managed for wilderness values but the NPS is also charged with providing for visitors as well as protecting resources. There will be no industrial development in national parks, as mandated by the Park Service's Organic Act. The tracts proposed for development are not in parks. But many of them have been found to have qualities of roadlessness, solitude, and other factord that could qualify them for wilderness protection. One of Utah's most precious resources is its pristine wilderness, which should be protected for the future. -- Joe
participants (4)
-
Chuck Hards -
Erik Hansen -
Joe Bauman -
Siegfried Jachmann