Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification
While a discussion of these issues on the email forum would be helpful, I would not wish to offend anyone unduly. If you would like, I would be happy to have private exchanges. I am seeking information, not necessarily initiating discussion here. Does that make sense? Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
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1. Re: privatization was space-x yada yada (Chuck Hards) 2. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (Joe Bauman)
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Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:31:08 -0700 From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] privatization was space-x yada yada Message-ID: <AANLkTi=7ncCk=Xub1-QJ5bHE_1mMn5a=AqYKogBx9MAz@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 12/13/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
If a parent has blue eyes and the offspring has brown, is that a mutation? I apologize for the over simplification. The genetic code is a long way form being figured out, it has only been crudely mapped.
With respect, you are overcomplicating the issue a bit, Erik.
Blue-eyed offspring from brown-eyed parents still got their DNA through one parent or the other; traits such as this, whether from recessive or dominant genes, are still due to the offspring's lineage, not a random mutation. I think most people accept the larger definition without picking nits.
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification Message-ID: <725287.84835.qm@web38905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
If anyone is going to carry on this discussion, I would ask that it be done with great politeness, with nobody trampling on the spiritual feelings of others. Our forum has been the host of too many spats in the past. Thanks, Joe
--- On Mon, 12/13/10, garrard55@xmission.com <garrard55@xmission.com> wrote:
From: garrard55@xmission.com <garrard55@xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:27 PM In recent years I have been involved in astronomy outreach to public? schools along the Wasatch Front. I have grown up in Utah. I am aware? that, when there are discussions of astronomy, the conflicts beween? the big bang and creation arise. In our local communities, there are? also ideas discussed regarding Kolob, whether our galaxy is organized? into spiritual realms, inhabitants of other bodies in the solar? system, etc. Some of the commentary comes from fringe writers, some? from ardent religionists, some from credentialed people like John? Heinerman and John Pratt. This has given rise to a very confusing? situation, which I would like to try to describe and clarify.
Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
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? ? 1. Re: privatization was space-x yada yada ? ? ???(erikhansen@thebluezone.net) ? ? 2. Re: request for information re: Mormon astronomy ? ? ???(erikhansen@thebluezone.net)
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Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:59:35 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] privatization was
space-x yada yada
Message-ID: ??? <e0658ecd7978ac90cc481c1b9cd3a024.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Parental DNA involves 2 parents, there is genetic information from one parent that might not be expressed in the offspring. A departure seems rather hard to define and things thought of as a departure, in reality may not be. Multiple genes can determine a single trait, we have a lot to learn about the interplay of genetic info. Genes can also be latent just unexpressed, so a seeming departure might be contained in parental DNA. Birth defects are very much contained in parental DNA, environmental influence may also come into play. I would argue bio-diversity is ingrained in DNA, it strengthens a species.
If a parent has blue eyes and the offspring has brown, is that a mutation? I apologize for the over simplification. The genetic code is a long way form being figured out, it has only been crudely mapped.
? I believe any variation from parental DNA is by definition a
"mutation", whether good or bad.
On 12/11/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
I would argue not all variation would be described as a "mutation".
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:12:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon ??? astronomy Message-ID: ??? <9aaf28af9fc4b44c9ce085013f9164cd.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
I understand it asserts that the sun does not generate its own energy. That the sun receives an influx of energy from its parent. Planet Kolob?
I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of astronomy. I would
like to hear from astronomers and amateur astronomers, Mormons and non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth by John Pratt, the Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free to contact me directly at garrard55@xmission.com. Thanks.
Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
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? ? 1. Re: evolution (erikhansen@thebluezone.net) ? ? 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) ? ? ???(erikhansen@thebluezone.net)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution Message-ID: ??? <39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
There is much about evolution that is not
understood, that Darwin did
not understand or explain. Darwin was simply the first to suppose it.???It is a broad subject that is often described in much too simple terms to illustrate it. The role of mutations seems over stressed me, the human race is very diverse and I would not call people different than me mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden departure form the parent, they do happen, and my experience with newborns clearly demonstrated it. Often these defects would happen in clusters (we could rely on that) then we would not see that defect again for several months. Humans have become more intelligent and I doubt we would recognize humans in 2 million years. Hopefully humanity can survive long enough to see what good it is capable of.
The beauty of science is that theories are always open to modification.
It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious beliefs, but scientific thought often has in the past.
? Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. Understanding
evolution is vital to understanding biology
Sincerely, ? ? ? ? Gary Vardon The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to your greater success.? GO to PublishAmerica.com Consulting For Profit is also available.? Learn how to make money as a consultant.
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? ??? Payload) Message-ID: ??? <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the universe is older than we believe. Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come from older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the universe is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material would have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify their theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe it as it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on the notion we live in closed universe.
There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to have evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single cell organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can change in hours. The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang up from virtually nothing. How the universe began or how life began may forever remain unanswered. It always get to question: How did this all begin?
Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not
evolution) and the Big Bang.? Its main? premise is that the information in a closed system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid.? When you start looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic proteins cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. As Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single cell forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going through a junkyard and creating a 747".
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious person I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious texts regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and humankind's role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the Book of Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural selection/evolution - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than the stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than allegorical.
I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration and whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments I read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be jolly?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload)
> Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random > mutations may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. I saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more gradually, IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date.
Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise.
? Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in SLC? > ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at > least > we don't get the inversions.) > > The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't > mind, > but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have > thoughts > that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While > musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about > creatures > that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and > crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no > eyes. > There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. > The > interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the > world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had > any > connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the > geography > too > great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary > science > is > that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the > environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My > thought > is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on > extraordinary) > that similar or identical species without contact with one another > would > experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical > outcomes, > i.e. new species with no eyes. > > I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the > overwhelming > evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't > this > present some significant problems for evolutionary theory? > > I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts > about > this. > > Kim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe > Bauman > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM > To: Utah Astronomy > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) > > Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe > --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com > <stormcrow60@xmission.com> > wrote: > >> From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> >> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> Payload) >> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com >> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM >> Joe, >> ???I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty >> years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of >> establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no >> other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space >> exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we >> abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could >> accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of >> endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the >> space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The >> fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. >> Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into >> what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world >> of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, >> it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial >> complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. >> Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export >> anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits >> were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we >> find that other nations have attained space programs as >> effective as ours. These are governments... not private >> enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private >> enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off >> the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will >> reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and >> watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the >> American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, >> once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the >> bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company >> landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... >> something the federal government did forty one years ago. >> So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal >> government to head the space program, and expand both manned >> space flight and robotic space exploration. >> ???I believe that within the next ten years, >> the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, >> China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... >> and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is >> meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not >> either. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
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Here's something that may interest you concerning one Mormon's viewpoint on cosmology http://www.hiltonbooks.com/The_Kolob_Theorem.pdf Most of it makes sense to me except for the fact that the Earth had to be moved an extreme amount of distance to its present location within the Milky Way is what seems to be a too short of a period of time to make it totally believeable. (P S: Who's John Pratt?) --- On Mon, 12/13/10, garrard55@xmission.com <garrard55@xmission.com> wrote: From: garrard55@xmission.com <garrard55@xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:38 PM While a discussion of these issues on the email forum would be helpful, I would not wish to offend anyone unduly. If you would like, I would be happy to have private exchanges. I am seeking information, not necessarily initiating discussion here. Does that make sense?
Religion is likely to always put its foot in its mouth when they talk about science, as does science when the talk about religion. The contradictions do their credibility harm, I suspect many believers just ignore the contradictions.
They should should just say "God Created Heaven and Earth" and leave it at that, and yes the sun shines on all, good and bad. While a discussion of these issues on the email forum would be
helpful, I would not wish to offend anyone unduly. If you would like, I would be happy to have private exchanges. I am seeking information, not necessarily initiating discussion here. Does that make sense?
Quoting utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com:
Send Utah-Astronomy mailing list submissions to utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: privatization was space-x yada yada (Chuck Hards) 2. Re: Mormon astronomy clarification (Joe Bauman)
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Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:31:08 -0700 From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] privatization was space-x yada yada Message-ID: <AANLkTi=7ncCk=Xub1-QJ5bHE_1mMn5a=AqYKogBx9MAz@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 12/13/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
If a parent has blue eyes and the offspring has brown, is that a mutation? I apologize for the over simplification. The genetic code is a long way form being figured out, it has only been crudely mapped.
With respect, you are overcomplicating the issue a bit, Erik.
Blue-eyed offspring from brown-eyed parents still got their DNA through one parent or the other; traits such as this, whether from recessive or dominant genes, are still due to the offspring's lineage, not a random mutation. I think most people accept the larger definition without picking nits.
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification Message-ID: <725287.84835.qm@web38905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
If anyone is going to carry on this discussion, I would ask that it be done with great politeness, with nobody trampling on the spiritual feelings of others. Our forum has been the host of too many spats in the past. Thanks, Joe
--- On Mon, 12/13/10, garrard55@xmission.com <garrard55@xmission.com> wrote:
From: garrard55@xmission.com <garrard55@xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mormon astronomy clarification To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Monday, December 13, 2010, 12:27 PM In recent years I have been involved in astronomy outreach to public? schools along the Wasatch Front. I have grown up in Utah. I am aware? that, when there are discussions of astronomy, the conflicts beween? the big bang and creation arise. In our local communities, there are? also ideas discussed regarding Kolob, whether our galaxy is organized? into spiritual realms, inhabitants of other bodies in the solar? system, etc. Some of the commentary comes from fringe writers, some? from ardent religionists, some from credentialed people like John? Heinerman and John Pratt. This has given rise to a very confusing? situation, which I would like to try to describe and clarify.
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? ? 1. Re: privatization was space-x yada yada ? ? ???(erikhansen@thebluezone.net) ? ? 2. Re: request for information re: Mormon astronomy ? ? ???(erikhansen@thebluezone.net)
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Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 11:59:35 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] privatization was
space-x yada yada
Message-ID: ??? <e0658ecd7978ac90cc481c1b9cd3a024.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Parental DNA involves 2 parents, there is genetic information from one parent that might not be expressed in the offspring. A departure seems rather hard to define and things thought of as a departure, in reality may not be. Multiple genes can determine a single trait, we have a lot to learn about the interplay of genetic info. Genes can also be latent just unexpressed, so a seeming departure might be contained in parental DNA. Birth defects are very much contained in parental DNA, environmental influence may also come into play. I would argue bio-diversity is ingrained in DNA, it strengthens a species.
If a parent has blue eyes and the offspring has brown, is that a mutation? I apologize for the over simplification. The genetic code is a long way form being figured out, it has only been crudely mapped.
? I believe any variation from parental DNA is by definition a
"mutation", whether good or bad.
On 12/11/10, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
I would argue not all variation would be described as a "mutation".
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 12:12:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] request for information re: Mormon ??? astronomy Message-ID: ??? <9aaf28af9fc4b44c9ce085013f9164cd.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
I understand it asserts that the sun does not generate its own energy. That the sun receives an influx of energy from its parent. Planet Kolob?
I am researching a paper for Mormon concepts of astronomy. I would
like to hear from astronomers and amateur astronomers, Mormons and non-LDS if possible, regarding the ideas set forth by John Pratt, the Book of Abraham, D&C 77, etc. Please feel free to contact me directly at garrard55@xmission.com. Thanks.
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Today's Topics:
? ? 1. Re: evolution (erikhansen@thebluezone.net) ? ? 2. Re: Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? Payload) ? ? ???(erikhansen@thebluezone.net)
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:01:58 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] evolution Message-ID: ???
<39b0ea93ab1eff07f7d6742cd708fd21.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net>
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> There is much about evolution that is not understood, that Darwin did > not understand or explain. Darwin was simply the first to suppose it.???It is a broad subject that is often described in much too simple terms to illustrate it. The role of mutations seems over stressed me, the human race is very diverse and I would not call people different than me mutants. A mutation is described as a sudden departure form the parent, they do happen, and my experience with newborns clearly demonstrated it. Often these defects would happen in clusters (we could rely on that) then we would not see that defect again for several months. Humans have become more intelligent and I doubt we would recognize humans in 2 million years. Hopefully humanity can survive long enough to see what good it is capable of.
The beauty of science is that theories are always open to modification.
It is unfortunate it conflicts with religious beliefs, but scientific thought often has in the past.
? Evolution is a profound idea with a lot of evidence for it. Understanding > evolution is vital to understanding biology > > Sincerely, >? ? ? ? Gary Vardon > The book DO It Right will help you understand vital ideas leading to > your > greater success.? GO to PublishAmerica.com > Consulting For Profit is also available.? Learn how to make money as a > consultant. > > > >
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 09:24:20 -0700 From: erikhansen@thebluezone.net To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? ??? Payload) Message-ID: ??? <316bfffba45011a5c2b94e28ff71e5e2.squirrel@webmail.thebluezone.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> It seems there are a number of things that indicate perhaps the > universe is older than we believe. Red Dwarfs are a good example, the material for them had have come from older stars, yet Red Dwarfs can be about as old as we suppose the universe is. We have never found any of the Population 3 stars this material would have come from. Perhaps, it is cosmologists that need to modify their theories. For the most part when we observe the universe we observe it as it was billions of years ago. Perhaps, cosmologist are too set on the notion we live in closed universe.
There are clearly gaps in how life began, but once it did it seems to have evolved gradually. Microbiology has demonstrated how quickly single cell organisms can change or be altered by an outside force. Bacteria can change in hours. The big bang theory seems to want us except that the universe sprang up from virtually nothing. How the universe began or how life began may forever remain unanswered. It always get to question: How did this all begin?
Information theory may be the death knell for Neo-Darwinism (not > evolution) > and the Big Bang.? Its main? premise is that the information in a > closed > system cannot increase - perhaps a more sophisticated way of saying the > second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is always valid.? When you start > looking at statistical probabilities even the formation of basic > proteins > cannot have occurred during the currently supposed age of the universe. > As > Fred Hoyle (who believed in Panspermia) said: "The chances of a single > cell > forming from blind processes is as unlikely as a whirlwind going > through a > junkyard and creating a 747". > > -----Original Message----- > From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:58 PM > To: 'Utah Astronomy' > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) > > I hope I wasn't misunderstood. While I think of myself as a religious > person > I certainly don't subscribe to much of what is written in religious > texts > regarding the beginnings of the universe, our solar system, and > humankind's > role in it all. (I'm most familiar with the Christian Bible and the > Book > of > Mormon. There. Now you know I'm LDS.) Darwinism/natural > selection/evolution > - whatever you call it provides answers that make more sense to me than > the > stories "revealed" to farmers and goat herders who probably lacked the > sophistication to understand the universe in terms other than > allegorical. > > I also didn't mean to criticize anyone's position on space exploration > and > whether private enterprise or government should take the lead. Comments > I > read today just seemed particularly gloomy. Isn't this the season to be > jolly? > > Kim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com > [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] > On > Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:04 PM > To: Utah Astronomy > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? > Payload) > >> Well having some background in genetics, it is true that random >> mutations > may become successful adaptations many more are failures on that score. > I > saw this daily in the NICU, it is a rare birth defect that is > advantageous. I think the majority of adaptations happen more > gradually, > IE useless traits gradually disappear. Evolution does not have all the > answers but at least the theory has undergone an evolution of its own. > Unlike creationism that simply says humans and other life just > mysteriously appeared. The truth is life evolved over billions of years > and humans are the most complex life from that has evolved to date. > > Perhaps we are a downer today but private industry fails do much needed > research. It seems rather naive to believe otherwise. > > >? Wow - you guys are real downers today! Is it the inversion weather in > SLC? >> ;-) (It's not much better here in Sanpete - gray and cloudy - but at >> least >> we don't get the inversions.) >> >> The following is science related, but not astronomy. Hope y'all don't >> mind, >> but you're the smartest bunch of people I know and you may have >> thoughts >> that would help me understand something that has been vexing me: While >> musing about evolution the other night, I began to think about >> creatures >> that I've encountered while spelunking, such as eyeless spiders and >> crickets. These cave critters are not just sightless; they have no >> eyes. >> There are fish, crayfish and other troglobites that also have no eyes. >> The >> interesting thing here is that such creatures are found throughout the >> world. Keep in mind that these are in ecosystems that have never had >> any >> connection to one another. The ecosystem is too small and the >> geography >> too >> great for that to be possible. My understanding of evolutionary >> science >> is >> that random mutations eventually lead to adaptation specific to the >> environment, probably as a result of that environment changing. My >> thought >> is that it seems extraordinarily coincidental (emphasis on >> extraordinary) >> that similar or identical species without contact with one another >> would >> experience the same random mutations that would lead to identical >> outcomes, >> i.e. new species with no eyes. >> >> I am no creationist by any means, and I am convinced by the >> overwhelming >> evidence that Darwin's theories are basically correct. BUT, doesn't >> this >> present some significant problems for evolutionary theory? >> >> I would appreciate it if you smart people would share your thoughts >> about >> this. >> >> Kim >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com >> [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe >> Bauman >> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:18 PM >> To: Utah Astronomy >> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >> Payload) >> >> Depressingly true about the future, Jon. Thanks, Joe >> --- On Fri, 12/10/10, stormcrow60@xmission.com >> <stormcrow60@xmission.com> >> wrote: >> >>> From: stormcrow60@xmission.com <stormcrow60@xmission.com> >>> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Privatization (Was: SpaceX ?Secret? >>> Payload) >>> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com >>> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 11:59 AM >>> Joe, >>> ???I whole heartedly agree with you. Forty >>> years ago we were on the cusp of moving in the direction of >>> establishing a moon base. Except for the Soviet Union, no >>> other nation could dream of having the capabilites of space >>> exploration we had at that time. But for some reason we >>> abruptly lost the vision and dreams of what we could >>> accomplish as a nation. Instead, we embraced the concepts of >>> endless war and corporate profiteering at the expense of the >>> space program, American jobs and American ingenuity. The >>> fall of the Soviet Union only accelerated this process. >>> Instead of investing the so-called "peace dividend" into >>> what many Americans thought would usher us into a new world >>> of prosperity, scientific advancement and world stability, >>> it unleashed the free enterprising, military-industrial >>> complex, corporate, finance based economy we have today. >>> Except for military endeavors, we really no longer export >>> anything to the world. Corporate and Wall Street profits >>> were and still are placed well above everything else. Now we >>> find that other nations have attained space programs as >>> effective as ours. These are governments... not private >>> enterprise... that have accomplished this. Private >>> enterprise will only seek tax breaks and seek to feed off >>> the teet of the federal government (you and me). They will >>> reap the profits and we will stand on the sidelines and >>> watch as they benefit once again at the expense of the >>> American taxpayer. And if they fail to accomplish anything, >>> once more, the American tax payer will be left holding the >>> bill. I simply can not imagine any free enterprising company >>> landing a man on the moon... even ten years from now... >>> something the federal government did forty one years ago. >>> So... that being the case, I would prefer the federal >>> government to head the space program, and expand both manned >>> space flight and robotic space exploration. >>> ???I believe that within the next ten years, >>> the American space program will be surpassed by the ESA, >>> China and perhaps even Japan. We fiddle while Rome burns... >>> and other nations fill the void we leave. But perhaps it is >>> meant to be. Rome did not last forever, and we will not >>> either. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
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>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3307 - Release Date: 12/10/10 >> >> >> >>
>> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php >> Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >> > > > >
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participants (3)
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erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
garrard55＠xmission.com -
M Wilson