http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/casJPGFullS04/N00019699.jpg This image was obtained Monday, Sept. 27th. Note the trailed stars behind the tenuous "F" ring, as the camera tracked the rings during the exposure. Does that mean that all the untrailed points are discreet ring particles? They vastly outnumber the trailed stars, and obviously cannot be stars themselves...or do I have it reversed? Are the brighter, trailed images the ring particles, and the dimmer ones stars? I don't think so; I think we are looking at individual ring particles, the first time in history other than "shepherd moons". Can a lister more familiar with the details of the probe help solve the mystery? _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com
Maybe they're dust or electronic hot spots or noise on the CCD chip, showing up in a raw image. Possibly NASA will process it and they will disappear. I know that when I try (TRY is the operative word!) to use my Meade CCD tracker, for every new exposure time I'm supposed to make a dark frame. This is done with the lens cap on so that light doesn't expose the chip. The microscopic computer brain in the tracker makes note of all the places where noise shows up so that it can discount them when actually guiding. -- Joe
I thought of that too, Joe, but don't see them in other uncalibrated shots that bracket it. Kind of really exclusive "noise" if that's the case. --- Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote:
Maybe they're dust or electronic hot spots or noise on the CCD chip, showing up in a raw image. Possibly NASA will process it and they will disappear.
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Hi all, a fellow reporter would like to know about the power of lasers to harm pilots' eyes. A Delta pilot apparently suffered damage to his eyes while flying into SLC the evening of Sept. 21. I know that sometimes people following our astronomy hobby use lasers to point out celestial objects at star parties, etc. What we don't know is whether these things are powerful enough to damage the eyes of pilots. This incident happened one day after first-quarter moon so I doubt anything was going on with astronomy at that time. But if you can help with descriptions of how powerful or weak the lasers are, etc., please give Jenifer Dobner a call at the paper at 237-2122. Thanks, Joe
Joe, I had the stray beam of a green laser contact my right eye out at SPOC one evening and as would be expected, I turned my head immediately on contact and was without good vision in that eye for the better part of an hour. I can't imagine anyone staring into such a beam long enough to cause damage. But I could be wrong. Since this unfortunate event, I seem to be able to see better out of the eye so I'm thinking of looking this character up at the next SPOC star party and having him do it to my left eye. ;) Only kidding. The rules should apply to lasers, even low powered ones, as they do ANY weapon. "NEVER point these at anything you don't intend to harm". That would include annoying, low flying, flare dropping F-16's out in the west desert. Never happened... ;) Guy Quoting Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com>:
Hi all, a fellow reporter would like to know about the power of lasers to harm pilots' eyes. A Delta pilot apparently suffered damage to his eyes while flying into SLC the evening of Sept. 21. I know that sometimes people following our astronomy hobby use lasers to point out celestial objects at star parties, etc. What we don't know is whether these things are powerful enough to damage the eyes of pilots. This incident happened one day after first-quarter moon so I doubt anything was going on with astronomy at that time. But if you can help with descriptions of how powerful or weak the lasers are, etc., please give Jenifer Dobner a call at the paper at 237-2122. Thanks, Joe
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This is from Z-bolt.com a lazer pointer supplier: Laser Safety Safety Care should always be taken, especially with children, when using a red laser or green laser pointer. The greatest danger of the laser beam is distracting a person from something that requires attention. For example, never flash a laser pointer beam anywhere near a driver or anyone who is operating machinery. Common courtesy tells us not to shine a laser pointer at a performer ( a basketball player; theater actor, etc. ) or at anyone else who might find it unpleasant or distracting. Focusing directly on a red laser, or green laser beam for several seconds can result in unpleasant spots in front of the eyes. But these disappear in time and it is unlikely that a person will stare at the beam long enough to see spots afterward. People, even infants, instinctively do not focus on the sun and the same is true of a laser pointer beam. Research done at the Mayo Clinic* shows that even staring at the laser beam for as long as several minutes does not result in permanent eye damage. Insurance companies are perhaps the best gauge of safety, since their financial well-being depends on identifying dangerous products. The premium for laser pointer insurance is no more than for office chairs. *. Laser Pointers and the Human Eye, A Clinicopathologic Study, Dennis M. Robertson, MD, et al. published in Clinopathologic Report, Dec. 2000. *. Laser Pointers and the Human Eye, A Clinicopathologic Study, Dennis M. Robertson, MD, et al. published in Clinopathologic Report, Dec. 2000. Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote: Hi all, a fellow reporter would like to know about the power of lasers to harm pilots' eyes. A Delta pilot apparently suffered damage to his eyes while flying into SLC the evening of Sept. 21. I know that sometimes people following our astronomy hobby use lasers to point out celestial objects at star parties, etc. What we don't know is whether these things are powerful enough to damage the eyes of pilots. This incident happened one day after first-quarter moon so I doubt anything was going on with astronomy at that time. But if you can help with descriptions of how powerful or weak the lasers are, etc., please give Jenifer Dobner a call at the paper at 237-2122. Thanks, Joe _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
I heard the story on KSL radio, and someone did in fact say that it had to have been a "high-powered" laser; pointers were not mentioned that I recall. --- Dan Wilde <edliwnad@yahoo.com> wrote:
This is from Z-bolt.com a lazer pointer supplier: Laser Safety Safety
Care should always be taken, especially with children, when using a red laser or green laser pointer. The greatest danger of the laser beam is distracting a person from something that requires attention. For example, never flash a laser pointer beam anywhere near a driver or anyone who is operating machinery. Common courtesy tells us not to shine a laser pointer at a performer ( a basketball player; theater actor, etc. ) or at anyone else who might find it unpleasant or distracting.
Focusing directly on a red laser, or green laser beam for several seconds can result in unpleasant spots in front of the eyes. But these disappear in time and it is unlikely that a person will stare at the beam long enough to see spots afterward. People, even infants, instinctively do not focus on the sun and the same is true of a laser pointer beam. Research done at the Mayo Clinic* shows that even staring at the laser beam for as long as several minutes does not result in permanent eye damage. Insurance companies are perhaps the best gauge of safety, since their financial well-being depends on identifying dangerous products. The premium for laser pointer insurance is no more than for office chairs.
*. Laser Pointers and the Human Eye, A Clinicopathologic Study, Dennis M. Robertson, MD, et al. published in Clinopathologic Report, Dec. 2000.
*. Laser Pointers and the Human Eye, A Clinicopathologic Study, Dennis M. Robertson, MD, et al. published in Clinopathologic Report, Dec. 2000.
Joe Bauman <bau@desnews.com> wrote:
Hi all, a fellow reporter would like to know about the power of lasers to harm pilots' eyes. A Delta pilot apparently suffered damage to his eyes while flying into SLC the evening of Sept. 21. I know that sometimes people following our astronomy hobby use lasers to point out celestial objects at star parties, etc. What we don't know is whether these things are powerful enough to damage the eyes of pilots. This incident happened one day after first-quarter moon so I doubt anything was going on with astronomy at that time. But if you can help with descriptions of how powerful or weak the lasers are, etc., please give Jenifer Dobner a call at the paper at 237-2122. Thanks, Joe
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I own an 18.2 mw high-powered laser pointer and have had a young person at one of our parties jump up and stick his hand up in front of the beam about 5 feet from me. It blinded me for a full half hour just from the beam disruption. I had peripheral vision, but even that was spotty with little flashes of light. I am always highly aware of the pointer since this incident and have made sure before beginning a demonstration that everyone fully understands how dangerous this pointer is. I joke anecdotally that it could blind airline pilots, but have heard no concrete evidence of it. We did have to sign a waiver with ZBolt where we purchased this that we would not point it at any earth based objects. To my knowledge a 5 mw laser will not do any damage, but that 18 mw laser is extremely powerful and we know you can see it from at least 1/8 mile indirectly, but we have not tested it out farther than this yet. We live on the east side of Magna just on the border with West Valley and we can shine this on the tip of the Oquirrhs and see a disruption of the beam on the mountain. (I suppose this would be a bad thing since we signed the waiver, but it is mostly unintentional.) NO, I did not have this out on September 21st! :) Lisa Zeigler www.johnstelescopes.com www.mirrorkits.com -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Hards [mailto:chuckhards@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:53 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Laser info help? I heard the story on KSL radio, and someone did in fact say that it had to have been a "high-powered" laser; pointers were not mentioned that I recall.
I can't speak to the new green lasers but I read a piece about the effects of red laser pointers on eyes that surprised me. In the study a number of people with malignant tumors associated with their eyes volunteered to stare directly into red laser pointers. The eyes were going to have to be removed eventually anyway so I guess they figured they had nothing to loose and could contribute to science. The surprising thing was the red laser pointers had no permanent effects on the eyes. Don't know if the results would be the same for the new green lasers. Patrick Joe Bauman wrote:
Hi all, a fellow reporter would like to know about the power of lasers to harm pilots' eyes. A Delta pilot apparently suffered damage to his eyes while flying into SLC the evening of Sept. 21. I know that sometimes people following our astronomy hobby use lasers to point out celestial objects at star parties, etc. What we don't know is whether these things are powerful enough to damage the eyes of pilots. This incident happened one day after first-quarter moon so I doubt anything was going on with astronomy at that time. But if you can help with descriptions of how powerful or weak the lasers are, etc., please give Jenifer Dobner a call at the paper at 237-2122. Thanks, Joee
Just on Fox 13 it was stated again, specifically, that pointers are not powerful enough to have been the culprit. No worries for the astronomers. Much higher-powered lab lasers are readily available to anyone, for anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars depending on output power. Good old Edmund has been selling them for years. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Unless this was an incredibly unfortunate coincidence, it would seem that this laser would have to be mounted quite well with some sort of sight. Just think about the accuracy required to hit a pupil with a pencil-thin beam from a mile or two away. This is especially true if the light was held on-target for any period of time. Back before I realized Tom Clancy couldn't write for beans, I read a book of his in which a pilot was intentionally blinded by a bright light. Yeesh. Michael
I can't speak to the new green lasers but I read a piece about the effects of red laser pointers on eyes that surprised me.
In the study a number of people with malignant tumors associated with their eyes volunteered to stare directly into red laser pointers. The eyes were going to have to be removed eventually anyway so I guess they figured they had nothing to loose and could contribute to science.
The surprising thing was the red laser pointers had no permanent effects on the eyes.
Don't know if the results would be the same for the new green lasers.
Patrick
Joe Bauman wrote:
Hi all, a fellow reporter would like to know about the power of lasers to harm pilots' eyes. A Delta pilot apparently suffered damage to his eyes while flying into SLC the evening of Sept. 21. I know that sometimes people following our astronomy hobby use lasers to point out celestial objects at star parties, etc. What we don't know is whether these things are powerful enough to damage the eyes of pilots. This incident happened one day after first-quarter moon so I doubt anything was going on with astronomy at that time. But if you can help with descriptions of how powerful or weak the lasers are, etc., please give Jenifer Dobner a call at the paper at 237-2122. Thanks, Joee
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So I guess you wouldn't be interested in buying my Tom Clancy collection??? ;) There have been reports about the old Soviet Union pointing high powered lasers at our reconnaissance aircraft in hopes of blinding our pilots. This talk has been around for years. Laser beams, unless highly focused will spread out over great distances. We regularly use lasers for sighting applications on weapon systems and the further out from the device, the bigger the dot. A powerful laser at a miles distance or so, will most likely have a large dot which reduces the need for precision aiming. Guy Quoting Michael Carnes <moogiebird@earthlink.net>:
Unless this was an incredibly unfortunate coincidence, it would seem that this laser would have to be mounted quite well with some sort of sight. Just think about the accuracy required to hit a pupil with a pencil-thin beam from a mile or two away. This is especially true if the light was held on-target for any period of time.
Back before I realized Tom Clancy couldn't write for beans, I read a book of his in which a pilot was intentionally blinded by a bright light. Yeesh.
Michael
I can't speak to the new green lasers but I read a piece about the effects of red laser pointers on eyes that surprised me.
In the study a number of people with malignant tumors associated with their eyes volunteered to stare directly into red laser pointers. The eyes were going to have to be removed eventually anyway so I guess they figured they had nothing to loose and could contribute to science.
The surprising thing was the red laser pointers had no permanent effects on the eyes.
Don't know if the results would be the same for the new green lasers.
Patrick
Joe Bauman wrote:
Hi all, a fellow reporter would like to know about the power of lasers to harm pilots' eyes. A Delta pilot apparently suffered damage to his eyes while flying into SLC the evening of Sept. 21. I know that sometimes people following our astronomy hobby use lasers to point out celestial objects at star parties, etc. What we don't know is whether these things are powerful enough to damage the eyes of pilots. This incident happened one day after first-quarter moon so I doubt anything was going on with astronomy at that time. But if you can help with descriptions of how powerful or weak the lasers are, etc., please give Jenifer Dobner a call at the paper at 237-2122. Thanks, Joee
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There is a military ( or ex-military) pilot suing the government over just such a thing right now. --- Michael Carnes <moogiebird@earthlink.net> wrote:
Back before I realized Tom Clancy couldn't write for beans, I read a book of his in which a pilot was intentionally blinded by a bright light. Yeesh.
Michael
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Joe, don't know if this helps, but... My green laser pointer is a "Class IIIa Laser Product" rated at "less than 5mW at 600-700 nm." That is the same rating (except for the wavelength) of my red laser pointer that I use for lectures. The label also says that it conforms to "CFR 1040," so if there's a problem, perhaps the Feds haven't adequately regulated it. Kim Hyatt Architect 1849 East 1300 South Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 801.631.5228 kimharch@msn.com<mailto:kimharch@msn.com> serius est quam cogitas ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Bauman<mailto:bau@desnews.com> To: Utah Astronomy<mailto:utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Laser info help? Hi all, a fellow reporter would like to know about the power of lasers to harm pilots' eyes. A Delta pilot apparently suffered damage to his eyes while flying into SLC the evening of Sept. 21. I know that sometimes people following our astronomy hobby use lasers to point out celestial objects at star parties, etc. What we don't know is whether these things are powerful enough to damage the eyes of pilots. This incident happened one day after first-quarter moon so I doubt anything was going on with astronomy at that time. But if you can help with descriptions of how powerful or weak the lasers are, etc., please give Jenifer Dobner a call at the paper at 237-2122. Thanks, Joe _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com<mailto:Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy<http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy> Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com<http://www.utahastronomy.com/>
Hi Chuck I had some e-mail w/ Carolyn Porco of the Cassini Project about 'spots' being moonlets,dust,etc.,??? and she replied they are camera artifacts that weren't cleaned up in the image. I looked for the e-mail w/ her comments but it has been trashed, I should have kept it for reference. My wife also has NO interest in my astronomy hobby though she has looked at sunspots, Saturn and the Moon from the front pier scope but going anywhere to see, forget about it. Aloha from Maui Rob
Rats! (old expression of disappointment, not a declaration that the spots are rodents...) --- Rob Ratkowski <ratkwski@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
I had some e-mail w/ Carolyn Porco of the Cassini Project about 'spots' being moonlets,dust,etc.,??? and she replied they are camera artifacts that weren't cleaned up in the image. I looked for the e-mail w/ her comments but it has been trashed, I should have kept it for reference.
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participants (10)
-
Brent Watson -
Chuck Hards -
Dan Wilde -
diveboss＠xmission.com -
Joe Bauman -
John and Lisa Zeigler -
Kim Hyatt -
Michael Carnes -
Patrick Wiggins -
Rob Ratkowski