I thought there have 5 or 6 objects classified as minor planets. Sent from my iPad

On Jul 20, 2015, at 3:23 PM, Wiggins Patrick <paw@digis.net> wrote:

Time to give the deceased equine a rest.

Maybe we could start an discussion about at what point does a rock become a minor planet?

patrick :)

...

On 20 Jul 2015, at 15:01, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

A much stronger argument about it is that Pluto may be a great deal like other Kuiper Belt objects, and we can't have dozens of small objects identified as planets.

From: "baxman2@q.com" <baxman2@q.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2015 12:58 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Pluto Planet Status

I would personally favor Pluto being returned to official Planet status for the following reasons. It is spherical, has five months, and surface geological activity. The only argument against it, is Pluto's size being smaller than Earth's Moon, making it somewhat comparable to a number of known minor planets.

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For the vast majority of human history the term "planet" which means "wanderer" included all permanent objects in our sky that did not have a fixed position against the other stars. Our ancestors identified 7 of them and our corresponding days of the week are named after them. I'm a bit upset about the demotion of the sun and moon from the list personally. Neither the IAU nor any other body has control over how language develops. If you want to call it a planet do so. The name we call an object does not change its properties. As a linguist I can tell you that language is directed by those who use it. In other words, over time those who talk about planets most will determine what the word will actually mean and your voice is no less authorative than the IAU or Neil Degrass Tyson on the matter. By the way dictionaries do not define words, cultures define words and dictionaries, a relatively modern invention, attempt to record those definitions. Our bizarre authority driven culture has oddly inflated the importance of dictionaries and grammarians as governing bodies of language.  As a side note, I personally will not support adding 3 additional days to our week to account for modern discovered planets unless those days are considered "weekend" days. On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:

The *definition of planet* set in Prague <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague> in 2006 by the International Astronomical Union <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Astronomical_Union> (IAU) states that, in the Solar System <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_System>, a planet <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet> is a celestial body <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_body> which: 1. is in orbit <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit> around the Sun <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun>, 2. has sufficient mass to assume hydrostatic equilibrium <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_equilibrium> (a nearly round shape), and 3. has "cleared the neighbourhood <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearing_the_neighbourhood>" around its orbit. Pluto lacks the mass to clear the neighborhood in the vicinity of it's orbit. On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 12:58 PM, <baxman2@q.com> wrote:

...

I would personally favor Pluto being returned to official Planet status for the following reasons. It is spherical, has five months, and surface geological activity. The only argument against it, is Pluto's size being smaller than Earth's Moon, making it somewhat comparable to a number of known minor planets.

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Your assertion of "law" is interesting as the first amendment would obviously prohibit any "law" requiring the use of specific names so I looked it up. https://www.iau.org/public/themes/naming/ Also interesting https://www.iau.org/public/themes/buying_star_names/

From the first link

The IAU has been the arbiter of planetary and satellite nomenclature since its inception in 1919. The various IAU Working Groups normally handle this process, and their decisions primarily affect the professional astronomers. But from time to time the IAU takes decisions and makes recommendations on issues concerning astronomical matters affecting other sciences or the public. ***Such decisions and recommendations are not enforceable by any national or international law; rather they establish conventions that are meant to help our understanding of astronomical objects and processes.*** Hence, IAU recommendations should rest on well-established scientific facts and have a broad consensus in the community concerned. (Emphasis mine) Reading a bit further on the second link, it is clear that IAU names are the names used in treaties when law needs to reference astronomical objects. The entire authority of IAU rests on the fact that scientists and the public take them seriously and use thier terms. But as pointed out in the second link there are plenty of other groups that name and sell names of stars. In reality these are no less valid than the names IAU gives except that no one takes them seriously or uses those names. If one of them started doing a better job than IAU there would be nothing to prevent them becoming the new standard body. Personally as I have hiked the mountains of the Wasatch front I have named many places. These names have been adopted by my family and circle of friends and are perfectly valid. I suppose I could name a few stars too if I wished or sell the names.  Don't get me wrong. I like the IAU and scientists need a body to make sure we are referencing the same thing. I also have no dog in the Pluto fight. But language is something controlled by those who use it frequently and with most skill. IAU can try to influence that but cannot control it. On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting point of view, Joel. The IAU does not have authority to control how language develops. Very true. When my daughter was a toddler, she called every bright star or planet in the "Venus". At the present time (recorded history and tradition aside), by international convention (law), they do have authority to define and name celestial bodies. Whether those names & classifications stick or not is up to the passage of time and the accumulation of scientific knowledge through investigation. You are correct also that a name does not change a celestial body's properties. It's the properties that determine what it is called. Science has this funny requirement of people agreeing on the definition of quite a few terms, thus the IAU's decision in this case, regardless if it goes against the grain of non-astronomers. I don't have a dog in this fight, I really don't care what anybody classifies Pluto as. "What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet." Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2) Look Patrick, the horse is still twitching! ;) On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 6:59 AM, Joel Stucki <joel.stucki@gmail.com> wrote:

...

For the vast majority of human history the term "planet" which means "wanderer" included all permanent objects in our sky that did not have a fixed position against the other stars. Our ancestors identified 7 of them and our corresponding days of the week are named after them. I'm a bit upset about the demotion of the sun and moon from the list personally. Neither the IAU nor any other body has control over how language develops. If you want to call it a planet do so. The name we call an object does not change its properties. As a linguist I can tell you that language is directed by those who use it. In other words, over time those who talk about planets most will determine what the word will actually mean and your voice is no less authorative than the IAU or Neil Degrass Tyson on the matter. By the way dictionaries do not define words, cultures define words and dictionaries, a relatively modern invention, attempt to record those definitions. Our bizarre authority driven culture has oddly inflated the importance of dictionaries and grammarians as governing bodies of language.

As a side note, I personally will not support adding 3 additional days to our week to account for modern discovered planets unless those days are considered "weekend" days.

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It will be another exoplanet like all the others. Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:

What is the IAU going to do when we detect a large, Earth-mass or larger "rogue" planet, between star systems, in interstellar space? A planet that was ejected from the system of it's birth. One day we will find them, and they won't be planets by the current definition.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Jeff Smith <utah-astronomy@unbiasedgeek.com

...

wrote:

...

As a high trained (aka I read a few books and Wikipedia) professional (in an unrelated field) all the following should be taken as gospel truth. :)

If we bring back Pluto can we bring back Ceres? It was a planet long before Pluto. We could also bring back Pallas, Juno, and Vesta as they were all considered planets at one point. We should also make Eris(might be bigger than Pluto), Haumea, and Makemake (my personal favorite) to the list as well.

In all honesty Pluto is still a planet, it is a Dwarf Planet. Big enough to reach hydrostatic equilibrium but small enough it cannot clear it orbital neighbourhood.

If you listen to the New Horizons briefings you may have noticed they always referred to it as the Pluto system. Because Pluto/Charon is a binary system. The barycenter lies outside of both Pluto and Charon. IMHO that make is super exciting.

Personally I think they should have reclassified all planets back in '06. e.g. Rocky Planets, Gaseous Planets, etc

That begin said if the scientific community cannot agree on a pronunciation on Chraon (is it /ˈʃærən/ or /ˈkɛərən/) then I suspect this debate shall never end.

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I like your perspective. In matters of pronunciation and spelling we can get very anglocentric. Crossing languages there are issues of missing sounds in some languages and spelling cannot be standardized when alphabets are not universal. Most of our common star names are Arabic in origin but are often far from their original pronunciation. And how do you say "Uranus"? I'm so glad Bode convinced Herschel not to call it Georgium since the Americans might make fun of that name. On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Jeff Smith <utah-astronomy@unbiasedgeek.com> wrote:

As a high trained (aka I read a few books and Wikipedia) professional (in an unrelated field) all the following should be taken as gospel truth. :) If we bring back Pluto can we bring back Ceres? It was a planet long before Pluto. We could also bring back Pallas, Juno, and Vesta as they were all considered planets at one point. We should also make Eris(might be bigger than Pluto), Haumea, and Makemake (my personal favorite) to the list as well. In all honesty Pluto is still a planet, it is a Dwarf Planet. Big enough to reach hydrostatic equilibrium but small enough it cannot clear it orbital neighbourhood. If you listen to the New Horizons briefings you may have noticed they always referred to it as the Pluto system. Because Pluto/Charon is a binary system. The barycenter lies outside of both Pluto and Charon. IMHO that make is super exciting. Personally I think they should have reclassified all planets back in '06. e.g. Rocky Planets, Gaseous Planets, etc That begin said if the scientific community cannot agree on a pronunciation on Chraon (is it /ˈʃærən/ or /ˈkɛərən/) then I suspect this debate shall never end. On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 12:58 PM, <baxman2@q.com> wrote:

...

I would personally favor Pluto being returned to official Planet status for the following reasons. It is spherical, has five months, and surface geological activity. The only argument against it, is Pluto's size being smaller than Earth's Moon, making it somewhat comparable to a number of known minor planets.

----- Original Message ----- From: utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 149, Issue 24

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Patrick strikes again! (Wiggins Patrick) 2. Re: Patrick strikes again! (Joe Bauman) 3. Re: Patrick strikes again! (Joan Carman)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 01:25:12 -0600 From: Wiggins Patrick <paw@digis.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Patrick strikes again! Message-ID: <075BB972-E3B3-44EF-A595-7CE2AA1C3B07@digis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Thanks Joe.

Flew over it again yesterday and was surprised at so much change in just a month.

http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/temp/DELTA.JPG

patrick

On 17 Jul 2015, at 09:29, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

...

Patrick has today's EPOD. Congrats to him! http://epod.usra.edu/blog/2015/07/delta-in-great-salt-lake-observed-from-alo...

Sent from my iPhone

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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 01:27:33 -0600 From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Patrick strikes again! Message-ID: <1ACDFE04-8485-4550-84DF-3E335A91946C@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

That's an astonishing difference.

Sent from my iPhone

...

On Jul 20, 2015, at 1:25 AM, Wiggins Patrick <paw@digis.net> wrote:

Thanks Joe.

Flew over it again yesterday and was surprised at so much change in just a month.

http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/temp/DELTA.JPG

patrick

...

On 17 Jul 2015, at 09:29, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

Patrick has today's EPOD. Congrats to him! http://epod.usra.edu/blog/2015/07/delta-in-great-salt-lake-observed-from-alo...

Sent from my iPhone

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Message: 3 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:45:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> To: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>, Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Patrick strikes again! Message-ID: <256003431.111399.1437414337415.JavaMail.root@md30.quartz.synacor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I clicked on your link, Joe, and it took me to a picture of a waterfall in New Zealand. I'm very much surprised Patrick's small plane made it that far. Perhaps it has Tesla solar panels on the wings :)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 9:29:06 AM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Patrick strikes again!

Patrick has today's EPOD. Congrats to him! http://epod.usra.edu/blog/

Sent from my iPhone

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Subject: Digest Footer

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Good point, Joel. I knew of the first name but didn't know Herschel had backed down. Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 21, 2015, at 10:35 AM, Joel Stucki <joel.stucki@gmail.com> wrote:

I like your perspective. In matters of pronunciation and spelling we can get very anglocentric. Crossing languages there are issues of missing sounds in some languages and spelling cannot be standardized when alphabets are not universal. Most of our common star names are Arabic in origin but are often far from their original pronunciation. And how do you say "Uranus"? I'm so glad Bode convinced Herschel not to call it Georgium since the Americans might make fun of that name.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Jeff Smith <utah-astronomy@unbiasedgeek.com> wrote:

...

As a high trained (aka I read a few books and Wikipedia) professional (in an unrelated field) all the following should be taken as gospel truth. :) If we bring back Pluto can we bring back Ceres? It was a planet long before Pluto. We could also bring back Pallas, Juno, and Vesta as they were all considered planets at one point. We should also make Eris(might be bigger than Pluto), Haumea, and Makemake (my personal favorite) to the list as well. In all honesty Pluto is still a planet, it is a Dwarf Planet. Big enough to reach hydrostatic equilibrium but small enough it cannot clear it orbital neighbourhood. If you listen to the New Horizons briefings you may have noticed they always referred to it as the Pluto system. Because Pluto/Charon is a binary system. The barycenter lies outside of both Pluto and Charon. IMHO that make is super exciting. Personally I think they should have reclassified all planets back in '06. e.g. Rocky Planets, Gaseous Planets, etc That begin said if the scientific community cannot agree on a pronunciation on Chraon (is it /ˈʃærən/ or /ˈkɛərən/) then I suspect this debate shall never end.

...

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 12:58 PM, <baxman2@q.com> wrote: I would personally favor Pluto being returned to official Planet status for the following reasons. It is spherical, has five months, and surface geological activity. The only argument against it, is Pluto's size being smaller than Earth's Moon, making it somewhat comparable to a number of known minor planets.

----- Original Message ----- From: utah-astronomy-request@mailman.xmission.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 149, Issue 24

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Patrick strikes again! (Wiggins Patrick) 2. Re: Patrick strikes again! (Joe Bauman) 3. Re: Patrick strikes again! (Joan Carman)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 01:25:12 -0600 From: Wiggins Patrick <paw@digis.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Patrick strikes again! Message-ID: <075BB972-E3B3-44EF-A595-7CE2AA1C3B07@digis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Thanks Joe.

Flew over it again yesterday and was surprised at so much change in just a month.

http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/temp/DELTA.JPG

patrick

...

On 17 Jul 2015, at 09:29, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

Patrick has today's EPOD. Congrats to him! http://epod.usra.edu/blog/2015/07/delta-in-great-salt-lake-observed-from-alo...

Sent from my iPhone

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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 01:27:33 -0600 From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Patrick strikes again! Message-ID: <1ACDFE04-8485-4550-84DF-3E335A91946C@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

That's an astonishing difference.

Sent from my iPhone

...

On Jul 20, 2015, at 1:25 AM, Wiggins Patrick <paw@digis.net> wrote:

Thanks Joe.

Flew over it again yesterday and was surprised at so much change in just a month.

http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/temp/DELTA.JPG

patrick

...

On 17 Jul 2015, at 09:29, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

Patrick has today's EPOD. Congrats to him! http://epod.usra.edu/blog/2015/07/delta-in-great-salt-lake-observed-from-alo...

Sent from my iPhone

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Message: 3 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:45:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Joan Carman <jcarman6@q.com> To: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>, Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Patrick strikes again! Message-ID: <256003431.111399.1437414337415.JavaMail.root@md30.quartz.synacor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I clicked on your link, Joe, and it took me to a picture of a waterfall in New Zealand. I'm very much surprised Patrick's small plane made it that far. Perhaps it has Tesla solar panels on the wings :)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 9:29:06 AM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Patrick strikes again!

Patrick has today's EPOD. Congrats to him! http://epod.usra.edu/blog/

Sent from my iPhone

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