Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Hi, I only quoted the APOD caption -- not sure where they got the info! Thanks, Joe --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote: From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star? To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 8:20 AM Burnham's is indeed out of date., at least in this instance. I believe that Albireo's true binary nature was only confirmed in the past 20 years or so. As Joe posted in reply, the yellow primary is a spectroscopic binary, although I didn't know that before. I believe that the information that Joe provided is a bit misleading: Albireo is about 380 light years distant from Earth - that isn't the distance between the two components. Joe, did you find the separation given anywhere (in other than angular distance)? Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of M Wilson Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:15 AM To: Utah astronomy blog Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
I found this a few years ago in the 1978 edition of Burnham's (Burnbaum's) Celestial Handbook Vol. II, page 754, third paragraph:
"Albireo is believed to be a physical pair, although no evidence of ortibal motion has been detected since the first observations of F.G.W. Struve in 1832."
Most of us, including myself, have been telling the public for years that the two were gravitationally bound. Looks like the proof is lacking or is Burnham's is out-of-date?
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Sorry, Joe. Didn't mean to imply that you were wrong. It was obvious that you were quoting someone but due to the way it was worded it occurred to me that someone might conclude that the pair is separated by 380 LY and that leads to an orbital period of 75,000 years. I always enjoy your posts. Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:44 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Hi, I only quoted the APOD caption -- not sure where they got the info! Thanks, Joe
--- On Sun, 5/17/09, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:
From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star? To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 8:20 AM
Burnham's is indeed out of date., at least in this instance. I believe that Albireo's true binary nature was only confirmed in the past 20 years or so. As Joe posted in reply, the yellow primary is a spectroscopic binary, although I didn't know that before. I believe that the information that Joe provided is a bit misleading: Albireo is about 380 light years distant from Earth - that isn't the distance between the two components. Joe, did you find the separation given anywhere (in other than angular distance)?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah- astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of M Wilson Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:15 AM To: Utah astronomy blog Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
I found this a few years ago in the 1978 edition of Burnham's (Burnbaum's) Celestial Handbook Vol. II, page 754, third paragraph:
"Albireo is believed to be a physical pair, although no evidence of ortibal motion has been detected since the first observations of F.G.W. Struve in 1832."
Most of us, including myself, have been telling the public for years that the two were gravitationally bound. Looks like the proof is lacking or is Burnham's is out-of-date?
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My 2 cents. I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham. For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra. That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's. BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii? Erik Sorry, Joe. Didn't mean to imply that you were wrong. It was obvious that
you were quoting someone but due to the way it was worded it occurred to me that someone might conclude that the pair is separated by 380 LY and that leads to an orbital period of 75,000 years.
I always enjoy your posts.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:44 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Hi, I only quoted the APOD caption -- not sure where they got the info! Thanks, Joe
--- On Sun, 5/17/09, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:
From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star? To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 8:20 AM
Burnham's is indeed out of date., at least in this instance. I believe that Albireo's true binary nature was only confirmed in the past 20 years or so. As Joe posted in reply, the yellow primary is a spectroscopic binary, although I didn't know that before. I believe that the information that Joe provided is a bit misleading: Albireo is about 380 light years distant from Earth - that isn't the distance between the two components. Joe, did you find the separation given anywhere (in other than angular distance)?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah- astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of M Wilson Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:15 AM To: Utah astronomy blog Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
I found this a few years ago in the 1978 edition of Burnham's (Burnbaum's) Celestial Handbook Vol. II, page 754, third paragraph:
"Albireo is believed to be a physical pair, although no evidence of ortibal motion has been detected since the first observations of F.G.W. Struve in 1832."
Most of us, including myself, have been telling the public for years that the two were gravitationally bound. Looks like the proof is lacking or is Burnham's is out-of-date?
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It would be interesting to know for sure as Albeio is a frequent and favorite star staple and we get a lot of questions about it. My astronomy software lists it as a binary and to Erick's point most of what I was able to find lists it as a true binary system as well although the distance was more often reported as 380 ly vs. 400 ly. Not a significant distance unless you were heading there soon. Robert Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:23 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
My 2 cents. I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham. For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra. That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's. BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii? Erik
Bob,
I would think the relative closeness (34 AU separation) makes it safe to call it a physical pair. I guess count alberio as a double you cannot detect changes in the position angle (PA). Zeta Herc (12 AU seperation) is one that the changes in PA can be readily observed. I have included a link to an article, "Orbits you might live through" , that talks about several. Also, for those of you who are new to double stars it is a good article to read, it has 5 parts. http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org/dblstar5.htm While working on the AL Double Star list I moved the field of view in RA and Dec to estimate the position angles. I have observed many double stars for years without paying any attention to PA. From what I have found most physical doubles that PA changes can be observed occur over decades. I doubt my estimates are more accurate than + or - 10 degrees. I guess we can say Alberio is one of those that PA changes are undetectable. While on the subject of events in the future: I talked with Charlie Green and the subject of future Astronomical Events worth living for came up. Anybody have any Astro Events you are looking forward to? Erik It would be interesting to know for sure as Albeio is a frequent and
favorite star staple and we get a lot of questions about it. My astronomy software lists it as a binary and to Erick's point most of what I was able to find lists it as a true binary system as well although the distance was more often reported as 380 ly vs. 400 ly. Not a significant distance unless you were heading there soon.
Robert Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:23 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
My 2 cents.
I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham.
For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra.
That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's.
BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii?
Erik
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Albireo separated by only 34AU? At 380 light years away, that would make them at most `/4 second apart! And they would revolve around each other in tens of years at most. They would have to be about 100 times farther apart to have a 75,000 year period. They must be farther apart. Spencer Ball 3690 E. Ft Union Blvd # 101 Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 (801) 453-2000 ----- Original Message ----- From: <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Bob,
I would think the relative closeness (34 AU separation) makes it safe to call it a physical pair. I guess count alberio as a double you cannot detect changes in the position angle (PA).
Zeta Herc (12 AU seperation) is one that the changes in PA can be readily observed. I have included a link to an article, "Orbits you might live through" , that talks about several. Also, for those of you who are new to double stars it is a good article to read, it has 5 parts.
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org/dblstar5.htm
While working on the AL Double Star list I moved the field of view in RA and Dec to estimate the position angles. I have observed many double stars for years without paying any attention to PA. From what I have found most physical doubles that PA changes can be observed occur over decades. I doubt my estimates are more accurate than + or - 10 degrees. I guess we can say Alberio is one of those that PA changes are undetectable.
While on the subject of events in the future: I talked with Charlie Green and the subject of future Astronomical Events worth living for came up. Anybody have any Astro Events you are looking forward to?
Erik
It would be interesting to know for sure as Albeio is a frequent and
favorite star staple and we get a lot of questions about it. My astronomy software lists it as a binary and to Erick's point most of what I was able to find lists it as a true binary system as well although the distance was more often reported as 380 ly vs. 400 ly. Not a significant distance unless you were heading there soon.
Robert Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:23 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
My 2 cents.
I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham.
For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra.
That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's.
BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii?
Erik
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Kind of what I thought as well, 34 AU would be pretty close for a double in fact could we split them at only 34 AU? Perhaps it's 34 arc seconds not AU. Roert Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Spencer Ball Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 11:01 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star? Albireo separated by only 34AU? At 380 light years away, that would make them at most `/4 second apart! And they would revolve around each other in tens of years at most. They would have to be about 100 times farther apart to have a 75,000 year period. They must be farther apart. Spencer Ball 3690 E. Ft Union Blvd # 101 Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 (801) 453-2000 ----- Original Message ----- From: <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Bob,
I would think the relative closeness (34 AU separation) makes it safe to call it a physical pair. I guess count alberio as a double you cannot detect changes in the position angle (PA).
Zeta Herc (12 AU seperation) is one that the changes in PA can be readily observed. I have included a link to an article, "Orbits you might live through" , that talks about several. Also, for those of you who are new to double stars it is a good article to read, it has 5 parts.
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org/dblstar5.htm
While working on the AL Double Star list I moved the field of view in RA and Dec to estimate the position angles. I have observed many double stars for years without paying any attention to PA. From what I have found most physical doubles that PA changes can be observed occur over decades. I doubt my estimates are more accurate than + or - 10 degrees. I guess we can say Alberio is one of those that PA changes are undetectable.
While on the subject of events in the future: I talked with Charlie Green and the subject of future Astronomical Events worth living for came up. Anybody have any Astro Events you are looking forward to?
Erik
It would be interesting to know for sure as Albeio is a frequent and
favorite star staple and we get a lot of questions about it. My astronomy software lists it as a binary and to Erick's point most of what I was able to find lists it as a true binary system as well although the distance was more often reported as 380 ly vs. 400 ly. Not a significant distance unless you were heading there soon.
Robert Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:23 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
My 2 cents.
I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham.
For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra.
That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's.
BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii?
Erik
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Perhaps I copied that wrong, I should have kept a list of sources. I do have 34" listed as separation. It is difficult to find all info from one source.
Kind of what I thought as well, 34 AU would be pretty close for a double in fact could we split them at only 34 AU? Perhaps it's 34 arc seconds not AU.
Roert Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Spencer Ball Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 11:01 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Albireo separated by only 34AU? At 380 light years away, that would make them at most `/4 second apart! And they would revolve around each other in tens of years at most. They would have to be about 100 times farther apart to have a 75,000 year period.
They must be farther apart.
Spencer Ball 3690 E. Ft Union Blvd # 101 Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 (801) 453-2000 ----- Original Message ----- From: <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Bob,
I would think the relative closeness (34 AU separation) makes it safe to call it a physical pair. I guess count alberio as a double you cannot detect changes in the position angle (PA).
Zeta Herc (12 AU seperation) is one that the changes in PA can be readily observed. I have included a link to an article, "Orbits you might live through" , that talks about several. Also, for those of you who are new to double stars it is a good article to read, it has 5 parts.
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org/dblstar5.htm
While working on the AL Double Star list I moved the field of view in RA and Dec to estimate the position angles. I have observed many double stars for years without paying any attention to PA. From what I have found most physical doubles that PA changes can be observed occur over decades. I doubt my estimates are more accurate than + or - 10 degrees. I guess we can say Alberio is one of those that PA changes are undetectable.
While on the subject of events in the future: I talked with Charlie Green and the subject of future Astronomical Events worth living for came up. Anybody have any Astro Events you are looking forward to?
Erik
It would be interesting to know for sure as Albeio is a frequent and
favorite star staple and we get a lot of questions about it. My astronomy software lists it as a binary and to Erick's point most of what I was able to find lists it as a true binary system as well although the distance was more often reported as 380 ly vs. 400 ly. Not a significant distance unless you were heading there soon.
Robert Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:23 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
My 2 cents.
I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham.
For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra.
That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's.
BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii?
Erik
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I've loked and can't find too many sites that agree on specifics on the star. Some say it's a true binary other say it's an optical double or that we're not sure. Robert Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 11:57 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Perhaps I copied that wrong, I should have kept a list of sources. I do have 34" listed as separation. It is difficult to find all info from one source.
Kind of what I thought as well, 34 AU would be pretty close for a double in fact could we split them at only 34 AU? Perhaps it's 34 arc seconds not AU.
Roert Taylor
Damn you all. I'll not sleep a wink until this is resolved! ;o)
Well, if we can't sleep, why should you? ;-) Anyone check out Hipparcos data? (I don't' have time today, or I would volunteer.) Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:47 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Damn you all.
I'll not sleep a wink until this is resolved!
;o) _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2078 - Release Date: 04/24/09 07:54:00
I searched the web for Hipparcos info no luck, good luck to somebody else, I am sure they don't refer to it as Alberio.
Chuck, I suggest we see if it gets down to liberal vs conservative POV. As a liberal I say it is a physical pair. Well, if we can't sleep, why should you? ;-)
Anyone check out Hipparcos data? (I don't' have time today, or I would volunteer.)
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:47 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Damn you all.
I'll not sleep a wink until this is resolved!
;o) _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2078 - Release Date: 04/24/09 07:54:00
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If you can't sleep maybe you should be outside figuring out what the deal is with Alberio. Robert Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:47 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star? Damn you all. I'll not sleep a wink until this is resolved! ;o) _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
An Article putting the orbital period at 600 years.
http://www.nightskyinfo.com/archive/albireo/
Kind of what I thought as well, 34 AU would be pretty close for a double in fact could we split them at only 34 AU? Perhaps it's 34 arc seconds not AU.
Roert Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Spencer Ball Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 11:01 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Albireo separated by only 34AU? At 380 light years away, that would make them at most `/4 second apart! And they would revolve around each other in tens of years at most. They would have to be about 100 times farther apart to have a 75,000 year period.
They must be farther apart.
Spencer Ball 3690 E. Ft Union Blvd # 101 Salt Lake City, Utah 84121 (801) 453-2000 ----- Original Message ----- From: <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Bob,
I would think the relative closeness (34 AU separation) makes it safe to call it a physical pair. I guess count alberio as a double you cannot detect changes in the position angle (PA).
Zeta Herc (12 AU seperation) is one that the changes in PA can be readily observed. I have included a link to an article, "Orbits you might live through" , that talks about several. Also, for those of you who are new to double stars it is a good article to read, it has 5 parts.
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org/dblstar5.htm
While working on the AL Double Star list I moved the field of view in RA and Dec to estimate the position angles. I have observed many double stars for years without paying any attention to PA. From what I have found most physical doubles that PA changes can be observed occur over decades. I doubt my estimates are more accurate than + or - 10 degrees. I guess we can say Alberio is one of those that PA changes are undetectable.
While on the subject of events in the future: I talked with Charlie Green and the subject of future Astronomical Events worth living for came up. Anybody have any Astro Events you are looking forward to?
Erik
It would be interesting to know for sure as Albeio is a frequent and
favorite star staple and we get a lot of questions about it. My astronomy software lists it as a binary and to Erick's point most of what I was able to find lists it as a true binary system as well although the distance was more often reported as 380 ly vs. 400 ly. Not a significant distance unless you were heading there soon.
Robert Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:23 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
My 2 cents.
I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham.
For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra.
That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's.
BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii?
Erik
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-- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 0.0.0/0 - Release Date: <unknown> 12:00
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Erik, As for your question " our the fellow SLASers behaving themselves in Hawaii" The answer is absolutely. On Sunday night we all met at Bubba Gumps for dinner and had a wonderful meal and spent the time stratagizing as to what we will be looking at when we visit the Faulks telescope on Tuesday night. Most of us are filling the daylight hours with many activities but we are all considering early morning treks on the island and snorkeling and then afternoon siestas so that we will be able to be awake well into the night hours for viewing. Rodger Fry ----- Original Message ----- From: <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
My 2 cents. I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham. For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra. That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's. BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii? Erik Sorry, Joe. Didn't mean to imply that you were wrong. It was obvious that
you were quoting someone but due to the way it was worded it occurred to me that someone might conclude that the pair is separated by 380 LY and that leads to an orbital period of 75,000 years.
I always enjoy your posts.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:44 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Hi, I only quoted the APOD caption -- not sure where they got the info! Thanks, Joe
--- On Sun, 5/17/09, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:
From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star? To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 8:20 AM
Burnham's is indeed out of date., at least in this instance. I believe that Albireo's true binary nature was only confirmed in the past 20 years or so. As Joe posted in reply, the yellow primary is a spectroscopic binary, although I didn't know that before. I believe that the information that Joe provided is a bit misleading: Albireo is about 380 light years distant from Earth - that isn't the distance between the two components. Joe, did you find the separation given anywhere (in other than angular distance)?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah- astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of M Wilson Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:15 AM To: Utah astronomy blog Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
I found this a few years ago in the 1978 edition of Burnham's (Burnbaum's) Celestial Handbook Vol. II, page 754, third paragraph:
"Albireo is believed to be a physical pair, although no evidence of ortibal motion has been detected since the first observations of F.G.W. Struve in 1832."
Most of us, including myself, have been telling the public for years that the two were gravitationally bound. Looks like the proof is lacking or is Burnham's is out-of-date?
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I'm doing a video conference with J. D. Armstrong on Maui (helping him and his students do a parallax experiments with an NEO). He says he'll be seeing you in the next day or two. patrick On 18 May 2009, at 01:40, Rodger C. Fry wrote:
Erik,
As for your question " our the fellow SLASers behaving themselves in Hawaii" The answer is absolutely. On Sunday night we all met at Bubba Gumps for dinner and had a wonderful meal and spent the time stratagizing as to what we will be looking at when we visit the Faulks telescope on Tuesday night. Most of us are filling the daylight hours with many activities but we are all considering early morning treks on the island and snorkeling and then afternoon siestas so that we will be able to be awake well into the night hours for viewing.
Rodger Fry
Well that must mean Siegfried brought his wife along.
Erik,
As for your question " our the fellow SLASers behaving themselves in Hawaii" The answer is absolutely. On Sunday night we all met at Bubba Gumps for dinner and had a wonderful meal and spent the time stratagizing as to what we will be looking at when we visit the Faulks telescope on Tuesday night. Most of us are filling the daylight hours with many activities but we are all considering early morning treks on the island and snorkeling and then afternoon siestas so that we will be able to be awake well into the night hours for viewing.
Rodger Fry ----- Original Message ----- From: <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
My 2 cents.
I compiled a list of 25 famous double stars some years back, as I recall Deep Sky and Sky&Telescope were my primary sources. I may have gotten some info from Burnham.
For Alberio I have it listed as 400 LY from earth and a separation of 34.3 Astronomical Units. I have only Zeta Hercules (12 AU) and Alula Australis (20 AU) as closer, although I don't have AU separation for 7 on the list, I assume that means they are further apart than AU's can be applied. IE: They are only optical doubles. Those are Delta Herc, Sigma Cor Bor, Almach, Porrima, Alpha Sag, Al Rischa, and Delta Lyra.
That indicates to me that they are a gravitational pair. Does anyone know the AU threshold for gravitational double stars? For instance I have Epsilon Persei at 2000 AU's.
BTW: Rob our our fellow SLAS'ers behaving themselves in Hawaii?
Erik
Sorry, Joe. Didn't mean to imply that you were wrong. It was obvious that
you were quoting someone but due to the way it was worded it occurred to me that someone might conclude that the pair is separated by 380 LY and that leads to an orbital period of 75,000 years.
I always enjoy your posts.
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:44 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
Hi, I only quoted the APOD caption -- not sure where they got the info! Thanks, Joe
--- On Sun, 5/17/09, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:
From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star? To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 8:20 AM
Burnham's is indeed out of date., at least in this instance. I believe that Albireo's true binary nature was only confirmed in the past 20 years or so. As Joe posted in reply, the yellow primary is a spectroscopic binary, although I didn't know that before. I believe that the information that Joe provided is a bit misleading: Albireo is about 380 light years distant from Earth - that isn't the distance between the two components. Joe, did you find the separation given anywhere (in other than angular distance)?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah- astronomy- bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of M Wilson Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:15 AM To: Utah astronomy blog Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Albireo: a double star?
I found this a few years ago in the 1978 edition of Burnham's (Burnbaum's) Celestial Handbook Vol. II, page 754, third paragraph:
"Albireo is believed to be a physical pair, although no evidence of ortibal motion has been detected since the first observations of F.G.W. Struve in 1832."
Most of us, including myself, have been telling the public for years that the two were gravitationally bound. Looks like the proof is lacking or is Burnham's is out-of-date?
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participants (8)
-
Chuck Hards -
erikhansen＠TheBlueZone.net -
Joe Bauman -
Kim -
Patrick Wiggins -
Robert Taylor -
Rodger C. Fry -
Spencer Ball