Hey Joe, I was there and saw Richard fall. That was rough and he is really a tough guy to handle that. I would never wish that upon a person, despite his abrasiveness. I do wish him a quick recovery from whatever hurt he received. That still doesn't excuse needless bullying of people. It is needless and unprofessional. Dale ________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sun, July 3, 2011 7:57:38 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Hi all, Cory and I are back from Bryce. Last year I had a little run-in with Richard. However, this year he had an accident in which he was hurt, and I admired his response. At the public star party Thursday night (I think) he had climbed onto a ladder to make an announcement. Coming down he slipped or tripped or something, and fell, the ladder rolling onto him. My impression is that he was close to the surface of the parking lot, or on it, when he fell. He hit hard and lay there seemingly stunned as others and I ran to help him. I lifted the ladder off. We helped him stand, but soon he was bounding around and saying he was fine. A little while later I noticed blood on his left arm. Then he was folding a handkerchief and putting it in place near his elbow. There was quite a bit of blood. He carried on as if nothing was wrong, and brushed it off by saying the fall had just knocked a scab off. He kept on the field and worked through the night, but I'm certain he was hurting. -- Joe ________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Two years ago I stopped in just for the night at Bryce. I met Richard and while I wouldn't call it a "run in" I did have words with him and an opportunity to see him interact with the guests as he set up his scope. Lets just say he wasn't just having a bad night this year.Steve

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:49:46 -0700 From: dalel2112@yahoo.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about Bryce. First....BEST OBSERVING EVER!! I have never had a better time with my 10". I've been there 5 out of the last 6

years and this was the best weather, trans, seeing, etc., I have seen there.

Next, absolute kudos to Kevin Poe and most of his staff (I'll get to that) for

their continuing support and organization to accommodate us.

Also, it was great to meet new members and re-acquaint with others on the field,

at the campsites, and at Alcon.

I would also like to say thanks to all the guys who organized and executed the

Alcon events. I witnessed tireless effort on their parts to make it a pure success.

My only concern was that I had a run-in with Richard, the volunteer, ranger. I

know he means well. However, he is coarse, abrasive and his people skills are

sorely lacking. I feel we have established a rapport with Bryce and are for the

most part, all professionals when we are on the field. Richard tends to treat

us all like dumb cattle. I know many feel similarly. We don't need, or deserve

to feel like kids on leashes.

Otherwise, it's a great time their.

Dale W. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

A case of too many Chiefs and not enough Indians. I imagine the Park Service has a lot of liability here. How much did they pay the stupid hikers in Zion Ntl Park?

What happened with the 36" telescope from Orion? I don't think so much that it's bullying as an attempt to keep some

organization to the telescope field. He happens to be the designated organizer. Without some rules there would be chaos with that many people and that many telescopes on the field. It makes sense to me to leave clear lanes for the public as they walk about the field. It's prety dark there and you don't want telescopes all over the place or cars parked in the field. Does he get upset when we turn car headlights on in the middle of a no lights star party? Yes, of course. I didn't really see get upset except for those headlights that came on. I thought he did a great job.

Siegfried

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Dale Wilson <dalel2112@yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Hey Joe,

I was there and saw Richard fall. That was rough and he is really a tough guy to handle that. I would never wish that upon a person, despite his abrasiveness. I do wish him a quick recovery from whatever hurt he received. That still doesn't excuse needless bullying of people. It is needless and unprofessional.

Dale

________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sun, July 3, 2011 7:57:38 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all, Cory and I are back from Bryce. Last year I had a little run-in with Richard. However, this year he had an accident in which he was hurt, and I admired his response. At the public star party Thursday night (I think) he had climbed onto a ladder to make an announcement. Coming down he slipped or tripped or something, and fell, the ladder rolling onto him. My impression is that he was close to the surface of the parking lot, or on it, when he fell. He hit hard and lay there seemingly stunned as others and I ran to help him. I lifted the ladder off. We helped him stand, but soon he was bounding around and saying he was fine. A little while later I noticed blood on his left arm. Then he was folding a handkerchief and putting it in place near his elbow. There was quite a bit of blood. He carried on as if nothing was wrong, and brushed it off by saying the fall had just knocked a scab off. He kept on the field and worked through the night, but I'm certain he was hurting. -- Joe

________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Two years ago I stopped in just for the night at Bryce. I met Richard and while I wouldn't call it a "run in" I did have words with him and an opportunity to see him interact with the guests as he set up his scope. Lets just say he wasn't just having a bad night this year.Steve

...

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:49:46 -0700 From: dalel2112@yahoo.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about Bryce. First....BEST OBSERVING EVER!! I have never had a better time with my 10". I've been there 5 out of the last 6

years and this was the best weather, trans, seeing, etc., I have seen there.

Next, absolute kudos to Kevin Poe and most of his staff (I'll get to that) for

...

their continuing support and organization to accommodate us.

Also, it was great to meet new members and re-acquaint with others on the field,

at the campsites, and at Alcon.

I would also like to say thanks to all the guys who organized and executed the

...

Alcon events. I witnessed tireless effort on their parts to make it a pure success.

My only concern was that I had a run-in with Richard, the volunteer, ranger. I

know he means well. However, he is coarse, abrasive and his people skills are

...

sorely lacking. I feel we have established a rapport with Bryce and are for the

most part, all professionals when we are on the field. Richard tends to treat

...

us all like dumb cattle. I know many feel similarly. We don't need, or deserve

to feel like kids on leashes.

Otherwise, it's a great time their.

Dale W. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

Bryce is an exception to most Conventions, generally there is an expectation of no headlights. What is good about Bryce is that general public gets to share the experience, I think few AstroClubs understand how much SLAS tries to cater to the general public. It is annoying to see headlights but not the end of the world as we know it.

Perhaps those individuals did not understand the focus of the Bryce Canyon Astronomy Festival and that really it was not exclusively for ALCON. WE have it every year without ALCON. I imagine combining the two probably created some confusion, meaning they thought the Star Party was solely for ALCON attendees. Having 2 venues seems somewhat unusual and perhaps confusing. I would like to join in the comment regarding Richard Blake (aka:

Telescope field ZAR or Porta-potty-illuminati").

First, his job is not an easy one. When we are all focused on getting our equipment set up and ready for viewers, he is looking at the big picture on where are the emergency lanes and do any slip-trip hazards exist. He has the charge to maintain order on the observing field and insure that the needs of the NPS are met. I have never had a problem with him and found that if you meet the guidelines they present to us, he leaves you pretty much to your own business. I do agree that he comes on strong sometime but perhaps that is needed to insure control. I would certainly take that over having a passive approach that allows things to get out of control.

I will say this, I feel that all SLAS volunteers operated well within the guidelines given to us and helped make this a great event. We were blessed with four nights of superb viewing (clear, transparent and reasonably stable atmospheric conditions) that left everyone there smiling.

I was made aware of one problem where some ALCON attendees viewing at Bryce Point threatened some sightseers when they drove up with their lights on. Even though we would like to preserve our night vision, it is public property and all have equal access. This caused the visitors to complain at the visitors center. Kevin Poe was very agitated about this.

In my opinion, this is the best viewing we have had in the past eight years!

Thanks Rodger Fry

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Siegfried Jachmann Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 12:35 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

I don't think so much that it's bullying as an attempt to keep some organization to the telescope field. He happens to be the designated organizer. Without some rules there would be chaos with that many people and that many telescopes on the field. It makes sense to me to leave clear lanes for the public as they walk about the field. It's prety dark there and you don't want telescopes all over the place or cars parked in the field. Does he get upset when we turn car headlights on in the middle of a no lights star party? Yes, of course. I didn't really see get upset except for those headlights that came on. I thought he did a great job.

Siegfried

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Dale Wilson <dalel2112@yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Hey Joe,

I was there and saw Richard fall. That was rough and he is really a tough guy to handle that. I would never wish that upon a person, despite his abrasiveness. I do wish him a quick recovery from whatever hurt he received. That still doesn't excuse needless bullying of people. It is needless and unprofessional.

Dale

________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sun, July 3, 2011 7:57:38 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all, Cory and I are back from Bryce. Last year I had a little run-in with Richard. However, this year he had an accident in which he was hurt, and I admired his response. At the public star party Thursday night (I think) he had climbed onto a ladder to make an announcement. Coming down he slipped or tripped or something, and fell, the ladder rolling onto him. My impression is that he was close to the surface of the parking lot, or on it, when he fell. He hit hard and lay there seemingly stunned as others and I ran to help him. I lifted the ladder off. We helped him stand, but soon he was bounding around and saying he was fine. A little while later I noticed blood on his left arm. Then he was folding a handkerchief and putting it in place near his elbow. There was quite a bit of blood. He carried on as if nothing was wrong, and brushed it off by saying the fall had just knocked a scab off. He kept on the field and worked through the night, but I'm certain he was hurting. -- Joe

________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Two years ago I stopped in just for the night at Bryce. I met Richard and while I wouldn't call it a "run in" I did have words with him and an opportunity to see him interact with the guests as he set up his scope. Lets just say he wasn't just having a bad night this year.Steve

...

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:49:46 -0700 From: dalel2112@yahoo.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about Bryce. First....BEST OBSERVING EVER!! I have never had a better time with my 10". I've been there 5 out of the last 6

years and this was the best weather, trans, seeing, etc., I have seen there.

Next, absolute kudos to Kevin Poe and most of his staff (I'll get to that) for

...

their continuing support and organization to accommodate us.

Also, it was great to meet new members and re-acquaint with others on the field,

at the campsites, and at Alcon.

I would also like to say thanks to all the guys who organized and executed the

...

Alcon events. I witnessed tireless effort on their parts to make it a pure success.

My only concern was that I had a run-in with Richard, the volunteer, ranger. I

know he means well. However, he is coarse, abrasive and his people skills are

...

sorely lacking. I feel we have established a rapport with Bryce and are for the

most part, all professionals when we are on the field. Richard tends to treat

...

us all like dumb cattle. I know many feel similarly. We don't need, or deserve

to feel like kids on leashes.

Otherwise, it's a great time their.

Dale W. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

Joe,

At Bryce Point or Rainbow Point, weren't there 2 star party sites? The confusion seemed on the part of the ALCON attendee that threatened a park visitor not the park visitor. I think you missed my point. Erik I don't think it was confusing; there were 2,000 visitors at the last

night's public star party alone, according to estimates I heard the next day. The night I set up at the public star party had about 700. People weren't kept away by thinking it was for ALCON only. Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: "erikhansen@thebluezone.net" <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, July 4, 2011 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

Bryce is an exception to most Conventions, generally there is an expectation of no headlights. What is good about Bryce is that general public gets to share the experience, I think few AstroClubs understand how much SLAS tries to cater to the general public. It is annoying to see headlights but not the end of the world as we know it.

Perhaps those individuals did not understand the focus of the Bryce Canyon Astronomy Festival and that really it was not exclusively for ALCON. WE have it every year without ALCON. I imagine combining the two probably created some confusion, meaning they thought the Star Party was solely for ALCON attendees. Having 2 venues seems somewhat unusual and perhaps confusing.

I would like to join in the comment regarding Richard Blake (aka:

...

Telescope field ZAR or Porta-potty-illuminati").

First, his job is not an easy one.  When we are all focused on getting our equipment set up and ready for viewers, he is looking at the big picture on where are the emergency lanes and do any slip-trip hazards exist.  He has the charge to maintain order on the observing field and insure that the needs of the NPS are met.  I have never had a problem with him and found that if you meet the guidelines they present to us, he leaves you pretty much to your own business.  I do agree that he comes on strong sometime but perhaps that is needed to insure control.  I would certainly take that over having a passive approach that allows things to get out of control.

I will say this, I feel that all SLAS volunteers operated well within the guidelines given to us and helped make this a great event.  We were blessed with four nights of superb viewing (clear, transparent and reasonably stable atmospheric conditions) that left everyone there smiling.

I was made aware of one problem where some ALCON attendees viewing at Bryce Point threatened some sightseers when they drove up with their lights on. Even though we would like to preserve our night vision, it is public property and all have equal access.  This caused the visitors to complain at the visitors center. Kevin Poe was very agitated about this.

In my opinion, this is the best viewing we have had in the past eight years!

Thanks Rodger Fry

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Siegfried Jachmann Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 12:35 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

I don't think so much that it's bullying as an attempt to keep some organization to the telescope field. He happens to be the designated organizer. Without some rules there would be chaos with that many people and that many telescopes on the field. It makes sense to me to leave clear lanes for the public as they walk about the field. It's prety dark there and you don't want telescopes all over the place or cars parked in the field. Does he get upset when we turn car headlights on in the middle of a no lights star party? Yes, of course. I didn't really see get upset except for those headlights that came on. I thought he did a great job.

Siegfried

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Dale Wilson <dalel2112@yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Hey Joe,

I was there and saw Richard fall.  That was rough and he is really a tough guy to handle that.  I would never wish that upon a person, despite his abrasiveness.  I do wish him a quick recovery from whatever hurt he received. That still doesn't excuse needless bullying of people.  It is needless and unprofessional.

Dale

________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sun, July 3, 2011 7:57:38 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all, Cory and I are back from Bryce. Last year I had a little run-in with Richard. However, this year he had an accident in which he was hurt, and I admired his response. At the public star party Thursday night (I think) he had climbed onto a ladder to make an announcement. Coming down he slipped or tripped or something, and fell, the ladder rolling onto him. My impression is that he was close to the surface of the parking lot, or on it, when he fell. He hit hard and lay there seemingly stunned as others and I ran to help him. I lifted the ladder off. We helped him stand, but soon he was bounding around and saying he was fine. A little while later I noticed blood on his left arm. Then he was folding a handkerchief and putting it in place near his elbow. There was quite a bit of blood. He carried on as if nothing was wrong, and brushed it off by saying the fall had just knocked a scab off. He kept on the field and worked through the night, but I'm certain he was hurting. -- Joe

________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Two years ago I stopped in just for the night at Bryce. I met Richard and while I wouldn't call it a "run in" I did have words with him and an opportunity to see him interact with the guests as he set up his scope. Lets just say he wasn't just having a bad night this year.Steve

...

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:49:46 -0700 From: dalel2112@yahoo.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about Bryce.  First....BEST OBSERVING EVER!! I have never had a better time with my 10".  I've been there 5 out of the last 6

years and this was the best weather, trans, seeing, etc., I have seen there.

Next, absolute kudos to Kevin Poe and most of his staff (I'll get to that) for

...

their continuing support and organization to accommodate us.

Also, it was great to meet new members and re-acquaint with others on the field,

at the campsites, and at Alcon.

I would also like to say thanks to all the guys who organized and executed the

...

Alcon events.  I witnessed tireless effort on their parts to make it a pure success.

My only concern was that I had a run-in with Richard, the volunteer, ranger.  I

know he means well.  However, he is coarse, abrasive and his people skills are

...

sorely lacking.  I feel we have established a rapport with Bryce and are for the

most part, all professionals when we are on the field.  Richard tends to treat

...

us all like dumb cattle.  I know many feel similarly.  We don't need, or deserve

to feel like kids on leashes.

Otherwise, it's a great time their.

Dale W. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

I would like to remind everyone that this an open Bulletin Board and this is probably NOT a good place to talk about, gripe, complain about any individual, I.E.: Richard. Richard has his job to do and he tries to do it with humor and efficiency and generally does a good job and goes out of his way to take our needs into consideration within his job description. Considering this group and its many personalities he does a good job. Minor correction. The public star party was in the parking lot adjacent to the Bryce Visitor Center, not the Lodge. That's our usual spot. There were smaller ALCON groups observing, unofficially, at other sites including at Bryce Point but these were not organized by us. The Park is a 24/7 operation and the public, that would also be any ALCON participant, are welcome to set up Telescopes within the park but may not restrict the normal flow of visitors in any way. I do believe there was an incident where some people that were in an ad hoc star party asked/insisted some people visiting the overlook turn off their head lights and apparently it wasn't handled well by anyone involved, I don't know all the details. We tried to remind everyone that we cannot ask anyone to turn off their light outside of the two places we had special permission to be there, Rainbow Point and the Visitor Center overflow parking lot. Considering the number of people and the number of telescopes I thought things went very well other than that we needed more observing space, the two sites we had were not enough for the crowd of cars, scopes and attendees. ALCON was a great event and something SLAS should be proud of pulling off. I'm not sure there are too many other Astronomy Clubs that could have done what we did. There were a lot of logistics involved and things went surprisingly well. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised but with something that big I expected more problems and they simply weren't there. I think we will see some good press in coming months. Lowell got a very nice award at the end and it was very well deserved. Bob -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:51 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Hi Erik, There was a public star party across from Bryce Lodge and an official private star party at Rainbow Point, for which the NPS had issued a permit. I don't think there was an official star party of any kind at Bryce Point (unless that's the same place as the public one, but I doubt that). If someone there threatened a visitor, that was really bad  behavior and I'm sorry it happened. Thanks for the clarification. -- Joe

Yes, you're right Bob, it was adjacent to the visitor center, not the lodge -- I'm the one who made that mistake. I agree with everything you say, and I would like to add that Rodger and you deserve special thanks for work way beyond what most of us did, contributing to an extremely successful gathering. Also I think a lot of others worked their rears off. Thanks to all, Joe ________________________________ From: Robert Taylor <robtaylorslc@gmail.com> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2011 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times I would like to remind everyone that this an open Bulletin Board and this is probably NOT a good place to talk about, gripe, complain about any individual, I.E.: Richard.  Richard has his job to do and he tries to do it with humor and efficiency and generally does a good job and goes out of his way to take our needs into consideration within his job description. Considering this group and its many personalities he does a good job. Minor correction.  The public star party was in the parking lot adjacent to the Bryce Visitor Center, not the Lodge.  That's our usual spot.  There were smaller ALCON groups observing, unofficially, at other sites including at Bryce Point but these were not organized by us.  The Park is a 24/7 operation and the public, that would also be any ALCON participant, are welcome to set up Telescopes within the park but may not restrict the normal flow of visitors in any way. I do believe there was an incident where some people that were in an ad hoc star party asked/insisted some people visiting the overlook turn off their head lights and apparently it wasn't handled well by anyone involved, I don't know all the details.  We tried to remind everyone that we cannot ask anyone to turn off their light outside of the two places we had special permission to be there, Rainbow Point and the Visitor Center overflow parking lot.  Considering the number of people and the number of telescopes I thought things went very well other than that we needed more observing space, the two sites we had were not enough for the crowd of cars, scopes and attendees. ALCON was a great event and something SLAS should be proud of pulling off. I'm not sure there are too many other Astronomy Clubs that could have done what we did.  There were a lot of logistics involved and things went surprisingly well. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised but with something that big I expected more problems and they simply weren't there.  I think we will see some good press in coming months.  Lowell got a very nice award at the end and it was very well deserved. Bob -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:51 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Hi Erik, There was a public star party across from Bryce Lodge and an official private star party at Rainbow Point, for which the NPS had issued a permit. I don't think there was an official star party of any kind at Bryce Point (unless that's the same place as the public one, but I doubt that). If someone there threatened a visitor, that was really bad  behavior and I'm sorry it happened. Thanks for the clarification. -- Joe _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

I certainly had a great time at ALCON last week. Kudos to Lowell, Roger, et al. I had to leave before the closing banquet - were any of the three scopes (Explore Scientific, Celestron, Orion) awarded to anyone we know? If so, I apologize for any drool on the E.S. scope. Clear skies, Dale.

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy- bounces+dale.hooper=sdl.usu.edu@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah- astronomy-bounces+dale.hooper=sdl.usu.edu@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Robert Taylor Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 11:24 AM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

ALCON was a great event and something SLAS should be proud of pulling off. I'm not sure there are too many other Astronomy Clubs that could have done what we did. There were a lot of logistics involved and things went surprisingly well. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised but with something that big I expected more problems and they simply weren't there. I think we will see some good press in coming months. Lowell got a very nice award at the end and it was very well deserved.

Bob

Roger and Siegfried, I do realize that his job is not easy. The run in I had with him had nothing to do with what you have addressed. His manor of controlling the field for set up is fine. Many do need direction and I know Kevin gives him run of the field because he gets the job done. For the record, I'll give the details: I was showing several guests Alberio in my scope. They wanted to know where it was. I briefly (and I mean briefly) pointed Cygnus and Alberio to these guests with the laser pointer. As I was expounding to the guests on Cygnus, Richard came right up to me and stood not 8 inches from my face. He sat in my space until I was finished. He then proceeded to chastise me for using too much laser. He embarrassed me and these several guests who were forced to listen to his banter. After Richard left, they commented on how inappropriate that was. I was embarrassed for the negative light Richard cast to these people. The only reason I did not react was to preserve the peace. If he had pulled me aside and spoke only to me with out involving the guests, I would have simply conceded to his request. I wouldn't have liked it, but that would have shown professionalism on his part. I would not be making this an issue here either. Yes, I was upset. But Richard over-interpreted the rule of using lasers sparingly and made an issue out of it. I did nothing wrong or inappropriate. I was not using the laser any more than anyone else was. I just happened to be in his gun sights. He can be an example of "abuse of power." Once again, it was an amazing event all around and I would not let this keep me from going back. Dale W. ________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 3:39:10 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times I would like to join in the comment regarding Richard Blake (aka: Telescope field ZAR or Porta-potty-illuminati"). First, his job is not an easy one. When we are all focused on getting our equipment set up and ready for viewers, he is looking at the big picture on where are the emergency lanes and do any slip-trip hazards exist. He has the charge to maintain order on the observing field and insure that the needs of the NPS are met. I have never had a problem with him and found that if you meet the guidelines they present to us, he leaves you pretty much to your own business. I do agree that he comes on strong sometime but perhaps that is needed to insure control. I would certainly take that over having a passive approach that allows things to get out of control. I will say this, I feel that all SLAS volunteers operated well within the guidelines given to us and helped make this a great event. We were blessed with four nights of superb viewing (clear, transparent and reasonably stable atmospheric conditions) that left everyone there smiling. I was made aware of one problem where some ALCON attendees viewing at Bryce Point threatened some sightseers when they drove up with their lights on. Even though we would like to preserve our night vision, it is public property and all have equal access. This caused the visitors to complain at the visitors center. Kevin Poe was very agitated about this. In my opinion, this is the best viewing we have had in the past eight years! Thanks Rodger Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Siegfried Jachmann Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 12:35 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times I don't think so much that it's bullying as an attempt to keep some organization to the telescope field. He happens to be the designated organizer. Without some rules there would be chaos with that many people and that many telescopes on the field. It makes sense to me to leave clear lanes for the public as they walk about the field. It's prety dark there and you don't want telescopes all over the place or cars parked in the field. Does he get upset when we turn car headlights on in the middle of a no lights star party? Yes, of course. I didn't really see get upset except for those headlights that came on. I thought he did a great job. Siegfried On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Dale Wilson <dalel2112@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hey Joe,

I was there and saw Richard fall. That was rough and he is really a tough guy to handle that. I would never wish that upon a person, despite his abrasiveness. I do wish him a quick recovery from whatever hurt he received. That still doesn't excuse needless bullying of people. It is needless and unprofessional.

Dale

________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sun, July 3, 2011 7:57:38 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all, Cory and I are back from Bryce. Last year I had a little run-in with Richard. However, this year he had an accident in which he was hurt, and I admired his response. At the public star party Thursday night (I think) he had climbed onto a ladder to make an announcement. Coming down he slipped or tripped or something, and fell, the ladder rolling onto him. My impression is that he was close to the surface of the parking lot, or on it, when he fell. He hit hard and lay there seemingly stunned as others and I ran to help him. I lifted the ladder off. We helped him stand, but soon he was bounding around and saying he was fine. A little while later I noticed blood on his left arm. Then he was folding a handkerchief and putting it in place near his elbow. There was quite a bit of blood. He carried on as if nothing was wrong, and brushed it off by saying the fall had just knocked a scab off. He kept on the field and worked through the night, but I'm certain he was hurting. -- Joe

________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Two years ago I stopped in just for the night at Bryce. I met Richard and while I wouldn't call it a "run in" I did have words with him and an opportunity to see him interact with the guests as he set up his scope. Lets just say he wasn't just having a bad night this year.Steve

...

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:49:46 -0700 From: dalel2112@yahoo.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about Bryce. First....BEST OBSERVING EVER!! I have never had a better time with my 10". I've been there 5 out of the last 6

years and this was the best weather, trans, seeing, etc., I have seen there.

Next, absolute kudos to Kevin Poe and most of his staff (I'll get to that) for

...

their continuing support and organization to accommodate us.

Also, it was great to meet new members and re-acquaint with others on the field,

at the campsites, and at Alcon.

I would also like to say thanks to all the guys who organized and executed the

...

Alcon events. I witnessed tireless effort on their parts to make it a pure success.

My only concern was that I had a run-in with Richard, the volunteer, ranger. I

know he means well. However, he is coarse, abrasive and his people skills are

...

sorely lacking. I feel we have established a rapport with Bryce and are for the

most part, all professionals when we are on the field. Richard tends to treat

...

us all like dumb cattle. I know many feel similarly. We don't need, or deserve

to feel like kids on leashes.

Otherwise, it's a great time their.

Dale W. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

Don, It had nothing to do with laser output. I only use my 5 mw. He must have thought 2 seconds was too long. Bob, Yes, he does an efficient job. I didn't want to make this mole hill into the mountain. I apologize for making it bigger than it should be and would ask all to cease on the Richard subject, as I will. Dale ________________________________ From: Don J. Colton <djcolton@piol.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 11:39:38 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Dale, Richard might have been concerned with the laser output. I saw a few lasers that looked more than 5 mW. The only lasers I have are 10 mW so I didn't use them. The Park has a regulation against the use of any lasers over 5 mW. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Wilson Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 4:29 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Roger and Siegfried, I do realize that his job is not easy. The run in I had with him had nothing to do with what you have addressed. His manor of controlling the field for set up is fine. Many do need direction and I know Kevin gives him run of the field because he gets the job done. For the record, I'll give the details: I was showing several guests Alberio in my scope. They wanted to know where it was. I briefly (and I mean briefly) pointed Cygnus and Alberio to these guests with the laser pointer. As I was expounding to the guests on Cygnus, Richard came right up to me and stood not 8 inches from my face. He sat in my space until I was finished. He then proceeded to chastise me for using too much laser. He embarrassed me and these several guests who were forced to listen to his banter. After Richard left, they commented on how inappropriate that was. I was embarrassed for the negative light Richard cast to these people. The only reason I did not react was to preserve the peace. If he had pulled me aside and spoke only to me with out involving the guests, I would have simply conceded to his request. I wouldn't have liked it, but that would have shown professionalism on his part. I would not be making this an issue here either. Yes, I was upset. But Richard over-interpreted the rule of using lasers sparingly and made an issue out of it. I did nothing wrong or inappropriate. I was not using the laser any more than anyone else was. I just happened to be in his gun sights. He can be an example of "abuse of power." Once again, it was an amazing event all around and I would not let this keep me from going back. Dale W. ________________________________ From: Rodger C. Fry <rcfry@comcast.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 3:39:10 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times I would like to join in the comment regarding Richard Blake (aka: Telescope field ZAR or Porta-potty-illuminati"). First, his job is not an easy one. When we are all focused on getting our equipment set up and ready for viewers, he is looking at the big picture on where are the emergency lanes and do any slip-trip hazards exist. He has the charge to maintain order on the observing field and insure that the needs of the NPS are met. I have never had a problem with him and found that if you meet the guidelines they present to us, he leaves you pretty much to your own business. I do agree that he comes on strong sometime but perhaps that is needed to insure control. I would certainly take that over having a passive approach that allows things to get out of control. I will say this, I feel that all SLAS volunteers operated well within the guidelines given to us and helped make this a great event. We were blessed with four nights of superb viewing (clear, transparent and reasonably stable atmospheric conditions) that left everyone there smiling. I was made aware of one problem where some ALCON attendees viewing at Bryce Point threatened some sightseers when they drove up with their lights on. Even though we would like to preserve our night vision, it is public property and all have equal access. This caused the visitors to complain at the visitors center. Kevin Poe was very agitated about this. In my opinion, this is the best viewing we have had in the past eight years! Thanks Rodger Fry -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Siegfried Jachmann Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 12:35 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times I don't think so much that it's bullying as an attempt to keep some organization to the telescope field. He happens to be the designated organizer. Without some rules there would be chaos with that many people and that many telescopes on the field. It makes sense to me to leave clear lanes for the public as they walk about the field. It's prety dark there and you don't want telescopes all over the place or cars parked in the field. Does he get upset when we turn car headlights on in the middle of a no lights star party? Yes, of course. I didn't really see get upset except for those headlights that came on. I thought he did a great job. Siegfried On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Dale Wilson <dalel2112@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hey Joe,

I was there and saw Richard fall. That was rough and he is really a tough guy to handle that. I would never wish that upon a person, despite his abrasiveness. I do wish him a quick recovery from whatever hurt he received. That still doesn't excuse needless bullying of people. It is needless and unprofessional.

Dale

________________________________ From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sun, July 3, 2011 7:57:38 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all, Cory and I are back from Bryce. Last year I had a little run-in with Richard. However, this year he had an accident in which he was hurt, and I admired his response. At the public star party Thursday night (I think) he had climbed onto a ladder to make an announcement. Coming down he slipped or tripped or something, and fell, the ladder rolling onto him. My impression is that he was close to the surface of the parking lot, or on it, when he fell. He hit hard and lay there seemingly stunned as others and I ran to help him. I lifted the ladder off. We helped him stand, but soon he was bounding around and saying he was fine. A little while later I noticed blood on his left arm. Then he was folding a handkerchief and putting it in place near his elbow. There was quite a bit of blood. He carried on as if nothing was wrong, and brushed it off by saying the fall had just knocked a scab off. He kept on the field and worked through the night, but I'm certain he was hurting. -- Joe

________________________________ From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Two years ago I stopped in just for the night at Bryce. I met Richard and while I wouldn't call it a "run in" I did have words with him and an opportunity to see him interact with the guests as he set up his scope. Lets just say he wasn't just having a bad night this year.Steve

...

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:49:46 -0700 From: dalel2112@yahoo.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about Bryce. First....BEST OBSERVING EVER!! I have never had a better time with my 10". I've been there 5 out of the last 6

years and this was the best weather, trans, seeing, etc., I have seen there.

Next, absolute kudos to Kevin Poe and most of his staff (I'll get to that) for

...

their continuing support and organization to accommodate us.

Also, it was great to meet new members and re-acquaint with others on the field,

at the campsites, and at Alcon.

I would also like to say thanks to all the guys who organized and executed the

...

Alcon events. I witnessed tireless effort on their parts to make it a pure success.

My only concern was that I had a run-in with Richard, the volunteer, ranger. I

know he means well. However, he is coarse, abrasive and his people skills are

...

sorely lacking. I feel we have established a rapport with Bryce and are for the

most part, all professionals when we are on the field. Richard tends to treat

...

us all like dumb cattle. I know many feel similarly. We don't need, or deserve

to feel like kids on leashes.

Otherwise, it's a great time their.

Dale W. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

Kim:   SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.    When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that  "these people don't get out much".    Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".      The worst offenders are often the most experienced.  Including many former SLAS officers.  Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.    DT From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times All: I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee. First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure. Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right? For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known. Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend. If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov. Take care all, Kim _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

Kim, I'm surprised that anybody with a telescope expected free entrance to the park. I know Cory and I were treated no differently than anybody else in terms of paying for park use. Because I'm past 62 I was able to buy a senior pass that allows us free entry to any NPS unit -- but so could any American citizen of the right age. (Ha! Felt good to say "right age".) I don't think Bryce has a lot to complain about from ALCON. Frankly, it seems to me that amateur astronomers aren't without rights as park users too. After all, we're Americans and we pay to get into the park like anybody else. Something that irritated me is that although we performed heroically to help the public by giving free telescope views at the overflow parking lot, staying up all night to do this for visitors, we were not allowed to keep scopes set up so they would be available the next night. For some that meant set up at evening, tear down in the morning, set up the next evening, etc. Some of us have scopes that are heavy and difficult to set up. Another reason the Park Service doesn't have a lot to complain about is because, in addition to the free service we provided to literally thousands of visitors and the entrance fees collected from all of us, the Astronomical League donated 10 percent of the money from the event to the park. Daniel, I really don't know what you're complaining about either. Nobody I know has been treated rudely by SLAS folks at star parties. Don't forget, this is a club of amateurs who are trying to do a service for people -- not employees who should be graded on this picky aspect or that attitude. We're all different, but I think SLAS does a fine job of helping people appreciate the heavens. Now I'll jump off my soapbox. -- Thanks, Joe ________________________________ From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Kim:   SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.    When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that  "these people don't get out much".    Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".      The worst offenders are often the most experienced.  Including many former SLAS officers.  Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.    DT From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times All: I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee. First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure. Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right? For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known. Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend. If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov. Take care all, Kim _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

Joe, the Park hasn't complained at all. The comments I shared were from individual employees who were shocked by the rude treatment from a handful of visitors, easily identified as amateur astronomers by the equipment that they carried or set up in the Park. After the particular incident at Bryce Point, the offending visitor had the nerve to ask the ranger for his name so that the visitor could lodge a complaint! The astronomy festival isn't a star party but an educational service that the Park offers, with the help of SLAS, for which I know the Park is very grateful. Unfortunately, parking near the visitor center is limited and the overflow lot we use for public viewing during the festival must be available during the day. I know it's a pain to set up each night, but I don't know of anywhere here (or in any other park, for that matter) where one could leave equipment set up. It pays to bring a smaller or at least less complex telescope for the festival. I didn't even set up my stuff on Wednesday so that I could operate Geoff Goins' scope, the 26-inch that was at the far end of the parking lot. It was a drag, but someone had to do it. ;-)

From the for-what-it's-worth department, you can only imagine how many regulations and rules that have to be met to be able to pull this off. You all probably met the Park's safety officer, but you may not know that a formal safety plan, as well as other documents, has to be prepared, submitted, and approved by Washington to be able to do this. Perhaps that's one reason other parks don't offer anything near what Bryce has been doing for more than a decade.

Kudos to Great Basin NP for trying. Way to go, Kelly. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:50 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

It seems to me the park service did give special consideration to ALCON, they did open up Rainbow Point and allowed driving on a road normally closed. It does not seem to me anyone parked near a road can have much expectation of no headlights, it is not legal to drive without them. Those at the park not for ALCON also have rights.

I went to a winter star party in the Everglades one year and a attendee set up a tent (poor idea with deadly snakes around) and was rousted by a Park Ranger wielding a pistol (yes it was in his hand), camping was not allowed at the site. Sounds like the Rangers acted with restraint. Seems to me incidents like that could lead to no more special access. Kim, I'm surprised that anybody with a telescope expected free entrance to

the park. I know Cory and I were treated no differently than anybody else in terms of paying for park use. Because I'm past 62 I was able to buy a senior pass that allows us free entry to any NPS unit -- but so could any American citizen of the right age. (Ha! Felt good to say "right age".) I don't think Bryce has a lot to complain about from ALCON. Frankly, it seems to me that amateur astronomers aren't without rights as park users too. After all, we're Americans and we pay to get into the park like anybody else.

Something that irritated me is that although we performed heroically to help the public by giving free telescope views at the overflow parking lot, staying up all night to do this for visitors, we were not allowed to keep scopes set up so they would be available the next night. For some that meant set up at evening, tear down in the morning, set up the next evening, etc. Some of us have scopes that are heavy and difficult to set up.

Another reason the Park Service doesn't have a lot to complain about is because, in addition to the free service we provided to literally thousands of visitors and the entrance fees collected from all of us, the Astronomical League donated 10 percent of the money from the event to the park.

Daniel, I really don't know what you're complaining about either. Nobody I know has been treated rudely by SLAS folks at star parties. Don't forget, this is a club of amateurs who are trying to do a service for people -- not employees who should be graded on this picky aspect or that attitude. We're all different, but I think SLAS does a fine job of helping people appreciate the heavens. Now I'll jump off my soapbox.

-- Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Kim:   SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.    When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that  "these people don't get out much".    Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".      The worst offenders are often the most experienced.  Including many former SLAS officers.  Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.    DT

From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

All:

I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee.

First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure.

Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right?

For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known.

Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend.

If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov.

Take care all, Kim

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3755 - Release Date: 07/09/11

No, the ranger lost his temper with the visitor. The LE rangers and entrance station rangers were actually good humored about it when I spoke with them on Monday. And, there's been no word from the Park administration nor is there likely to be. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I should clarify one other thing: any comments that I share here are strictly my own and do not come from the Park Service or Bryce Canyon NP. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:08 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times You said the ranger lost his temper -- that sounds like complaining. I too am sorry if someone acted rudely. Thanks, Joe ________________________________ From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Joe, the Park hasn't complained at all. The comments I shared were from individual employees who were shocked by the rude treatment from a handful of visitors, easily identified as amateur astronomers by the equipment that they carried or set up in the Park. After the particular incident at Bryce Point, the offending visitor had the nerve to ask the ranger for his name so that the visitor could lodge a complaint! The astronomy festival isn't a star party but an educational service that the Park offers, with the help of SLAS, for which I know the Park is very grateful. Unfortunately, parking near the visitor center is limited and the overflow lot we use for public viewing during the festival must be available during the day. I know it's a pain to set up each night, but I don't know of anywhere here (or in any other park, for that matter) where one could leave equipment set up. It pays to bring a smaller or at least less complex telescope for the festival. I didn't even set up my stuff on Wednesday so that I could operate Geoff Goins' scope, the 26-inch that was at the far end of the parking lot. It was a drag, but someone had to do it. ;-)

From the for-what-it's-worth department, you can only imagine how many regulations and rules that have to be met to be able to pull this off. You all probably met the Park's safety officer, but you may not know that a formal safety plan, as well as other documents, has to be prepared, submitted, and approved by Washington to be able to do this. Perhaps that's one reason other parks don't offer anything near what Bryce has been doing for more than a decade.

Kudos to Great Basin NP for trying. Way to go, Kelly. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:50 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

It seems to me the park service did give special consideration to ALCON, they did open up Rainbow Point and allowed driving on a road normally closed. It does not seem to me anyone parked near a road can have much expectation of no headlights, it is not legal to drive without them. Those at the park not for ALCON also have rights.

I went to a winter star party in the Everglades one year and a attendee set up a tent (poor idea with deadly snakes around) and was rousted by a Park Ranger wielding a pistol (yes it was in his hand), camping was not allowed at the site. Sounds like the Rangers acted with restraint. Seems to me incidents like that could lead to no more special access. Kim, I'm surprised that anybody with a telescope expected free entrance to

the park. I know Cory and I were treated no differently than anybody else in terms of paying for park use. Because I'm past 62 I was able to buy a senior pass that allows us free entry to any NPS unit -- but so could any American citizen of the right age. (Ha! Felt good to say "right age".) I don't think Bryce has a lot to complain about from ALCON. Frankly, it seems to me that amateur astronomers aren't without rights as park users too. After all, we're Americans and we pay to get into the park like anybody else.

Something that irritated me is that although we performed heroically to help the public by giving free telescope views at the overflow parking lot, staying up all night to do this for visitors, we were not allowed to keep scopes set up so they would be available the next night. For some that meant set up at evening, tear down in the morning, set up the next evening, etc. Some of us have scopes that are heavy and difficult to set up.

Another reason the Park Service doesn't have a lot to complain about is because, in addition to the free service we provided to literally thousands of visitors and the entrance fees collected from all of us, the Astronomical League donated 10 percent of the money from the event to the park.

Daniel, I really don't know what you're complaining about either. Nobody I know has been treated rudely by SLAS folks at star parties. Don't forget, this is a club of amateurs who are trying to do a service for people -- not employees who should be graded on this picky aspect or that attitude. We're all different, but I think SLAS does a fine job of helping people appreciate the heavens. Now I'll jump off my soapbox.

-- Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Kim:   SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.    When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that  "these people don't get out much".    Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".      The worst offenders are often the most experienced.  Including many former SLAS officers.  Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.    DT

From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

All:

I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee.

First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure.

Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right?

For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known.

Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend.

If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov.

Take care all, Kim

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3755 - Release Date: 07/09/11 _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3757 - Release Date: 07/10/11

Having visited many National Parks throughout the US I think we should be thankful for the helpful and professional Park Rangers we have in Utah. With crowds come problems. Organ Pipe Cactus they are ICE Agents, Yosemite they are Police Officers, and the Everglades DEA Agents. They are trying to keep the parks safe, arguing with Park Rangers is like arguing with the Police rarely a good idea.

BTW, Kim congratulations on your job, sounds like fun and you are a good addition to the park. No, the ranger lost his temper with the visitor. The LE rangers and

entrance station rangers were actually good humored about it when I spoke with them on Monday. And, there's been no word from the Park administration nor is there likely to be. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I should clarify one other thing: any comments that I share here are strictly my own and do not come from the Park Service or Bryce Canyon NP.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:08 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

You said the ranger lost his temper -- that sounds like complaining. I too am sorry if someone acted rudely. Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Joe, the Park hasn't complained at all. The comments I shared were from individual employees who were shocked by the rude treatment from a handful of visitors, easily identified as amateur astronomers by the equipment that they carried or set up in the Park. After the particular incident at Bryce Point, the offending visitor had the nerve to ask the ranger for his name so that the visitor could lodge a complaint!

The astronomy festival isn't a star party but an educational service that the Park offers, with the help of SLAS, for which I know the Park is very grateful. Unfortunately, parking near the visitor center is limited and the overflow lot we use for public viewing during the festival must be available during the day. I know it's a pain to set up each night, but I don't know of anywhere here (or in any other park, for that matter) where one could leave equipment set up. It pays to bring a smaller or at least less complex telescope for the festival. I didn't even set up my stuff on Wednesday so that I could operate Geoff Goins' scope, the 26-inch that was at the far end of the parking lot. It was a drag, but someone had to do it. ;-)

...

From the for-what-it's-worth department, you can only imagine how many regulations and rules that have to be met to be able to pull this off. You all probably met the Park's safety officer, but you may not know that a formal safety plan, as well as other documents, has to be prepared, submitted, and approved by Washington to be able to do this. Perhaps that's one reason other parks don't offer anything near what Bryce has been doing for more than a decade.

Kudos to Great Basin NP for trying. Way to go, Kelly.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:50 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

It seems to me the park service did give special consideration to ALCON, they did open up Rainbow Point and allowed driving on a road normally closed. It does not seem to me anyone parked near a road can have much expectation of no headlights, it is not legal to drive without them. Those at the park not for ALCON also have rights.

I went to a winter star party in the Everglades one year and a attendee set up a tent (poor idea with deadly snakes around) and was rousted by a Park Ranger wielding a pistol (yes it was in his hand), camping was not allowed at the site. Sounds like the Rangers acted with restraint.

Seems to me incidents like that could lead to no more special access.

Kim, I'm surprised that anybody with a telescope expected free entrance to

...

the park. I know Cory and I were treated no differently than anybody else in terms of paying for park use. Because I'm past 62 I was able to buy a senior pass that allows us free entry to any NPS unit -- but so could any American citizen of the right age. (Ha! Felt good to say "right age".) I don't think Bryce has a lot to complain about from ALCON. Frankly, it seems to me that amateur astronomers aren't without rights as park users too. After all, we're Americans and we pay to get into the park like anybody else.

Something that irritated me is that although we performed heroically to help the public by giving free telescope views at the overflow parking lot, staying up all night to do this for visitors, we were not allowed to keep scopes set up so they would be available the next night. For some that meant set up at evening, tear down in the morning, set up the next evening, etc. Some of us have scopes that are heavy and difficult to set up.

Another reason the Park Service doesn't have a lot to complain about is because, in addition to the free service we provided to literally thousands of visitors and the entrance fees collected from all of us, the Astronomical League donated 10 percent of the money from the event to the park.

Daniel, I really don't know what you're complaining about either. Nobody I know has been treated rudely by SLAS folks at star parties. Don't forget, this is a club of amateurs who are trying to do a service for people -- not employees who should be graded on this picky aspect or that attitude. We're all different, but I think SLAS does a fine job of helping people appreciate the heavens. Now I'll jump off my soapbox.

-- Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Kim:   SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.    When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that  "these people don't get out much".    Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".      The worst offenders are often the most experienced.  Including many former SLAS officers.  Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.    DT

From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

All:

I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee.

First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure.

Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right?

For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known.

Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend.

If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov.

Take care all, Kim

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3755 - Release Date: 07/09/11

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3757 - Release Date: 07/10/11

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

Kim,

I did not mean that literally, but in the parks mentioned circumstance requires Rangers being armed and being on edge as far a rules go. Erik ICE? DEA? Boy, one really isn't in Kansas anymore. Our rangers are REALLY

laid back.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 7:44 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

Having visited many National Parks throughout the US I think we should be thankful for the helpful and professional Park Rangers we have in Utah. With crowds come problems. Organ Pipe Cactus they are ICE Agents, Yosemite they are Police Officers, and the Everglades DEA Agents. They are trying to keep the parks safe, arguing with Park Rangers is like arguing with the Police rarely a good idea.

BTW, Kim congratulations on your job, sounds like fun and you are a good addition to the park.

No, the ranger lost his temper with the visitor. The LE rangers and

...

entrance station rangers were actually good humored about it when I spoke with them on Monday. And, there's been no word from the Park administration nor is there likely to be. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I should clarify one other thing: any comments that I share here are strictly my own and do not come from the Park Service or Bryce Canyon NP.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:08 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

You said the ranger lost his temper -- that sounds like complaining. I too am sorry if someone acted rudely. Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Joe, the Park hasn't complained at all. The comments I shared were from individual employees who were shocked by the rude treatment from a handful of visitors, easily identified as amateur astronomers by the equipment that they carried or set up in the Park. After the particular incident at Bryce Point, the offending visitor had the nerve to ask the ranger for his name so that the visitor could lodge a complaint!

The astronomy festival isn't a star party but an educational service that the Park offers, with the help of SLAS, for which I know the Park is very grateful. Unfortunately, parking near the visitor center is limited and the overflow lot we use for public viewing during the festival must be available during the day. I know it's a pain to set up each night, but I don't know of anywhere here (or in any other park, for that matter) where one could leave equipment set up. It pays to bring a smaller or at least less complex telescope for the festival. I didn't even set up my stuff on Wednesday so that I could operate Geoff Goins' scope, the 26-inch that was at the far end of the parking lot. It was a drag, but someone had to do it. ;-)

...

From the for-what-it's-worth department, you can only imagine how many regulations and rules that have to be met to be able to pull this off. You all probably met the Park's safety officer, but you may not know that a formal safety plan, as well as other documents, has to be prepared, submitted, and approved by Washington to be able to do this. Perhaps that's one reason other parks don't offer anything near what Bryce has been doing for more than a decade.

Kudos to Great Basin NP for trying. Way to go, Kelly.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:50 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

It seems to me the park service did give special consideration to ALCON, they did open up Rainbow Point and allowed driving on a road normally closed. It does not seem to me anyone parked near a road can have much expectation of no headlights, it is not legal to drive without them. Those at the park not for ALCON also have rights.

I went to a winter star party in the Everglades one year and a attendee set up a tent (poor idea with deadly snakes around) and was rousted by a Park Ranger wielding a pistol (yes it was in his hand), camping was not allowed at the site. Sounds like the Rangers acted with restraint.

Seems to me incidents like that could lead to no more special access.

Kim, I'm surprised that anybody with a telescope expected free entrance to

...

the park. I know Cory and I were treated no differently than anybody else in terms of paying for park use. Because I'm past 62 I was able to buy a senior pass that allows us free entry to any NPS unit -- but so could any American citizen of the right age. (Ha! Felt good to say "right age".) I don't think Bryce has a lot to complain about from ALCON. Frankly, it seems to me that amateur astronomers aren't without rights as park users too. After all, we're Americans and we pay to get into the park like anybody else.

Something that irritated me is that although we performed heroically to help the public by giving free telescope views at the overflow parking lot, staying up all night to do this for visitors, we were not allowed to keep scopes set up so they would be available the next night. For some that meant set up at evening, tear down in the morning, set up the next evening, etc. Some of us have scopes that are heavy and difficult to set up.

Another reason the Park Service doesn't have a lot to complain about is because, in addition to the free service we provided to literally thousands of visitors and the entrance fees collected from all of us, the Astronomical League donated 10 percent of the money from the event to the park.

Daniel, I really don't know what you're complaining about either. Nobody I know has been treated rudely by SLAS folks at star parties. Don't forget, this is a club of amateurs who are trying to do a service for people -- not employees who should be graded on this picky aspect or that attitude. We're all different, but I think SLAS does a fine job of helping people appreciate the heavens. Now I'll jump off my soapbox.

-- Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Kim:   SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.    When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that  "these people don't get out much".    Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".      The worst offenders are often the most experienced.  Including many former SLAS officers.  Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.    DT

From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

All:

I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee.

First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure.

Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right?

For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known.

Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend.

If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov.

Take care all, Kim

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

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Lets not forget the wildlife officer shot here in Utah. They are laid back here, we camped on the side of the road late one night near the Needles, a Ranger came by and left us a warning ticket, he could have woken us but did not.

If you happen upon one of those fields you are probably in danger no matter who you are. I knew what you meant, and I understand why in some parks rangers have to

be cautious. I seem to remember one instance, perhaps it was in California years ago, where a FS ranger happened upon someone growing marijuana on forest land and was killed when he was mistaken for law enforcement. Here our rangers might be too laid back.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 9:15 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

Kim,

I did not mean that literally, but in the parks mentioned circumstance requires Rangers being armed and being on edge as far a rules go.

Erik

ICE? DEA? Boy, one really isn't in Kansas anymore. Our rangers are REALLY

...

laid back.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 7:44 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

Having visited many National Parks throughout the US I think we should be thankful for the helpful and professional Park Rangers we have in Utah. With crowds come problems. Organ Pipe Cactus they are ICE Agents, Yosemite they are Police Officers, and the Everglades DEA Agents. They are trying to keep the parks safe, arguing with Park Rangers is like arguing with the Police rarely a good idea.

BTW, Kim congratulations on your job, sounds like fun and you are a good addition to the park.

No, the ranger lost his temper with the visitor. The LE rangers and

...

entrance station rangers were actually good humored about it when I spoke with them on Monday. And, there's been no word from the Park administration nor is there likely to be. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I should clarify one other thing: any comments that I share here are strictly my own and do not come from the Park Service or Bryce Canyon NP.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:08 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

You said the ranger lost his temper -- that sounds like complaining. I too am sorry if someone acted rudely. Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Joe, the Park hasn't complained at all. The comments I shared were from individual employees who were shocked by the rude treatment from a handful of visitors, easily identified as amateur astronomers by the equipment that they carried or set up in the Park. After the particular incident at Bryce Point, the offending visitor had the nerve to ask the ranger for his name so that the visitor could lodge a complaint!

The astronomy festival isn't a star party but an educational service that the Park offers, with the help of SLAS, for which I know the Park is very grateful. Unfortunately, parking near the visitor center is limited and the overflow lot we use for public viewing during the festival must be available during the day. I know it's a pain to set up each night, but I don't know of anywhere here (or in any other park, for that matter) where one could leave equipment set up. It pays to bring a smaller or at least less complex telescope for the festival. I didn't even set up my stuff on Wednesday so that I could operate Geoff Goins' scope, the 26-inch that was at the far end of the parking lot. It was a drag, but someone had to do it. ;-)

...

From the for-what-it's-worth department, you can only imagine how many regulations and rules that have to be met to be able to pull this off. You all probably met the Park's safety officer, but you may not know that a formal safety plan, as well as other documents, has to be prepared, submitted, and approved by Washington to be able to do this. Perhaps that's one reason other parks don't offer anything near what Bryce has been doing for more than a decade.

Kudos to Great Basin NP for trying. Way to go, Kelly.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:50 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

It seems to me the park service did give special consideration to ALCON, they did open up Rainbow Point and allowed driving on a road normally closed. It does not seem to me anyone parked near a road can have much expectation of no headlights, it is not legal to drive without them. Those at the park not for ALCON also have rights.

I went to a winter star party in the Everglades one year and a attendee set up a tent (poor idea with deadly snakes around) and was rousted by a Park Ranger wielding a pistol (yes it was in his hand), camping was not allowed at the site. Sounds like the Rangers acted with restraint.

Seems to me incidents like that could lead to no more special access.

Kim, I'm surprised that anybody with a telescope expected free entrance to

...

the park. I know Cory and I were treated no differently than anybody else in terms of paying for park use. Because I'm past 62 I was able to buy a senior pass that allows us free entry to any NPS unit -- but so could any American citizen of the right age. (Ha! Felt good to say "right age".) I don't think Bryce has a lot to complain about from ALCON. Frankly, it seems to me that amateur astronomers aren't without rights as park users too. After all, we're Americans and we pay to get into the park like anybody else.

Something that irritated me is that although we performed heroically to help the public by giving free telescope views at the overflow parking lot, staying up all night to do this for visitors, we were not allowed to keep scopes set up so they would be available the next night. For some that meant set up at evening, tear down in the morning, set up the next evening, etc. Some of us have scopes that are heavy and difficult to set up.

Another reason the Park Service doesn't have a lot to complain about is because, in addition to the free service we provided to literally thousands of visitors and the entrance fees collected from all of us, the Astronomical League donated 10 percent of the money from the event to the park.

Daniel, I really don't know what you're complaining about either. Nobody I know has been treated rudely by SLAS folks at star parties. Don't forget, this is a club of amateurs who are trying to do a service for people -- not employees who should be graded on this picky aspect or that attitude. We're all different, but I think SLAS does a fine job of helping people appreciate the heavens. Now I'll jump off my soapbox.

-- Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Kim:   SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.    When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that  "these people don't get out much".    Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".      The worst offenders are often the most experienced.  Including many former SLAS officers.  Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.    DT

From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

All:

I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee.

First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure.

Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right?

For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known.

Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend.

If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov.

Take care all, Kim

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3755 - Release Date: 07/09/11

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I know, we like to call it a star party but the fact that it is so controlled makes it an educational event. That's what the Park says and I'm going to stand by it. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Siegfried Jachmann Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 12:16 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times It's a star party :) siegfried On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:

Joe, the Park hasn't complained at all. The comments I shared were from individual employees who were shocked by the rude treatment from a handful of visitors, easily identified as amateur astronomers by the equipment that they carried or set up in the Park. After the particular incident at Bryce Point, the offending visitor had the nerve to ask the ranger for his name so that the visitor could lodge a complaint!

The astronomy festival isn't a star party but an educational service that the Park offers, with the help of SLAS, for which I know the Park is very grateful. Unfortunately, parking near the visitor center is limited and the overflow lot we use for public viewing during the festival must be available during the day. I know it's a pain to set up each night, but I don't know of anywhere here (or in any other park, for that matter) where one could leave equipment set up. It pays to bring a smaller or at least less complex telescope for the festival. I didn't even set up my stuff on Wednesday so that I could operate Geoff Goins' scope, the 26-inch that was at the far end of the parking lot. It was a drag, but someone had to do it. ;-)

...

From the for-what-it's-worth department, you can only imagine how many regulations and rules that have to be met to be able to pull this off. You all probably met the Park's safety officer, but you may not know that a formal safety plan, as well as other documents, has to be prepared, submitted, and approved by Washington to be able to do this. Perhaps that's one reason other parks don't offer anything near what Bryce has been doing for more than a decade.

Kudos to Great Basin NP for trying. Way to go, Kelly.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:50 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

It seems to me the park service did give special consideration to ALCON, they did open up Rainbow Point and allowed driving on a road normally closed. It does not seem to me anyone parked near a road can have much expectation of no headlights, it is not legal to drive without them. Those at the park not for ALCON also have rights.

I went to a winter star party in the Everglades one year and a attendee set up a tent (poor idea with deadly snakes around) and was rousted by a Park Ranger wielding a pistol (yes it was in his hand), camping was not allowed at the site. Sounds like the Rangers acted with restraint.

Seems to me incidents like that could lead to no more special access.

Kim, I'm surprised that anybody with a telescope expected free entrance to

...

the park. I know Cory and I were treated no differently than anybody else in terms of paying for park use. Because I'm past 62 I was able to buy a senior pass that allows us free entry to any NPS unit -- but so could any American citizen of the right age. (Ha! Felt good to say "right age".) I don't think Bryce has a lot to complain about from ALCON. Frankly, it seems to me that amateur astronomers aren't without rights as park users too. After all, we're Americans and we pay to get into the park like anybody else.

Something that irritated me is that although we performed heroically to help the public by giving free telescope views at the overflow parking lot, staying up all night to do this for visitors, we were not allowed to keep scopes set up so they would be available the next night. For some that meant set up at evening, tear down in the morning, set up the next evening, etc. Some of us have scopes that are heavy and difficult to set up.

Another reason the Park Service doesn't have a lot to complain about is because, in addition to the free service we provided to literally thousands of visitors and the entrance fees collected from all of us, the Astronomical League donated 10 percent of the money from the event to the park.

Daniel, I really don't know what you're complaining about either. Nobody I know has been treated rudely by SLAS folks at star parties. Don't forget, this is a club of amateurs who are trying to do a service for people -- not employees who should be graded on this picky aspect or that attitude. We're all different, but I think SLAS does a fine job of helping people appreciate the heavens. Now I'll jump off my soapbox.

-- Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Kim:

SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.

When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that "these people don't get out much". Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".

The worst offenders are often the most experienced. Including many former SLAS officers. Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.

DT

From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

All:

I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee.

First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure.

Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right?

For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known.

Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend.

If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov.

Take care all, Kim

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3755 - Release Date: 07/09/11

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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3758 - Release Date: 07/11/11

My uniform hasn't arrived. I have no tie yet to loosen. How about "public" versus "private" star parties? Some of the problems during the astrofest and ALCON appear to have been due to that people who hadn't coordinated through the Park or Don Colton just thought they could show up for their own private observing session, unhindered by inquisitive visitors, headlights and nosy park rangers. Loosen your shorts. ;-) Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Siegfried Jachmann Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 1:28 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Done correctly, every star party is an educational event. That doesn't keep it from being a star party. Loosen your tie. :) ☺ Siegfried On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:

I know, we like to call it a star party but the fact that it is so controlled makes it an educational event. That's what the Park says and I'm going to stand by it.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Siegfried Jachmann Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 12:16 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

It's a star party :)

siegfried

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:

...

Joe, the Park hasn't complained at all. The comments I shared were from individual employees who were shocked by the rude treatment from a handful of visitors, easily identified as amateur astronomers by the equipment that they carried or set up in the Park. After the particular incident at Bryce Point, the offending visitor had the nerve to ask the ranger for his name so that the visitor could lodge a complaint!

The astronomy festival isn't a star party but an educational service that the Park offers, with the help of SLAS, for which I know the Park is very grateful. Unfortunately, parking near the visitor center is limited and the overflow lot we use for public viewing during the festival must be available during the day. I know it's a pain to set up each night, but I don't know of anywhere here (or in any other park, for that matter) where one could leave equipment set up. It pays to bring a smaller or at least less complex telescope for the festival. I didn't even set up my stuff on Wednesday so that I could operate Geoff Goins' scope, the 26-inch that was at the far end of the parking lot. It was a drag, but someone had to do it. ;-)

...

From the for-what-it's-worth department, you can only imagine how many regulations and rules that have to be met to be able to pull this off. You all probably met the Park's safety officer, but you may not know that a formal safety plan, as well as other documents, has to be prepared, submitted, and approved by Washington to be able to do this. Perhaps that's one reason other parks don't offer anything near what Bryce has been doing for more than a decade.

Kudos to Great Basin NP for trying. Way to go, Kelly.

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:50 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

...

It seems to me the park service did give special consideration to ALCON, they did open up Rainbow Point and allowed driving on a road normally closed. It does not seem to me anyone parked near a road can have much expectation of no headlights, it is not legal to drive without them. Those at the park not for ALCON also have rights.

I went to a winter star party in the Everglades one year and a attendee set up a tent (poor idea with deadly snakes around) and was rousted by a Park Ranger wielding a pistol (yes it was in his hand), camping was not allowed at the site. Sounds like the Rangers acted with restraint.

Seems to me incidents like that could lead to no more special access.

Kim, I'm surprised that anybody with a telescope expected free entrance to

...

the park. I know Cory and I were treated no differently than anybody else in terms of paying for park use. Because I'm past 62 I was able to buy a senior pass that allows us free entry to any NPS unit -- but so could any American citizen of the right age. (Ha! Felt good to say "right age".) I don't think Bryce has a lot to complain about from ALCON. Frankly, it seems to me that amateur astronomers aren't without rights as park users too. After all, we're Americans and we pay to get into the park like anybody else.

Something that irritated me is that although we performed heroically to help the public by giving free telescope views at the overflow parking lot, staying up all night to do this for visitors, we were not allowed to keep scopes set up so they would be available the next night. For some that meant set up at evening, tear down in the morning, set up the next evening, etc. Some of us have scopes that are heavy and difficult to set up.

Another reason the Park Service doesn't have a lot to complain about is because, in addition to the free service we provided to literally thousands of visitors and the entrance fees collected from all of us, the Astronomical League donated 10 percent of the money from the event to the park.

Daniel, I really don't know what you're complaining about either. Nobody I know has been treated rudely by SLAS folks at star parties. Don't forget, this is a club of amateurs who are trying to do a service for people -- not employees who should be graded on this picky aspect or that attitude. We're all different, but I think SLAS does a fine job of helping people appreciate the heavens. Now I'll jump off my soapbox.

-- Thanks, Joe

________________________________ From: daniel turner <outwest112@yahoo.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Kim:

SLAS members are not immune to rudeness.

When I first joined I went to so called private star parties and thought that "these people don't get out much". Later I came to the sad conclusion that "These people NEED to get out MORE..... but not with me".

The worst offenders are often the most experienced. Including many former SLAS officers. Sadly they can be most inconsiderate.

DT

From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> To: 'Utah Astronomy' <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

All:

I started work at Bryce Canyon as the "Historic Structures and Landscapes Specialist" the week before the Bryce Astro Festival and the concurrent ALCON. I knew about the possibility of this job back in March, so I hesitated to volunteer to help with either event, except to commit to the four nights of public viewing for the Astro Festival. I lost my internet access at my place in Tropic and I'm only rarely able to respond to this group, at least until I have Patrick change my email address. Today I took time to clear out the nearly 200 messages that had accumulated on this account - not all of them spam (unless I count some of your comments. ;-) So forgive me for re-hashing what is by now old news, but I thought some of you might be interested in what I've learned as a Park employee.

First, Richard Blake is a great guy to get to know and I consider him a good friend. We all make mistakes, and if Richard has at any time appeared to be overbearing or rude I would attribute it to the stress of what he's doing. If I were judged on the basis of my occasional slips I would not look too good. Anyway, I enjoy his friendship and I look forward to working with him, Kevin, Geoff and the other "interp rangers" throughout the summer. Since the astronomy programs are not in my job description I can volunteer to help. If they were part of my job description, I couldn't volunteer. Funny federal regs - go figure.

Some of you have alluded to a run-in at Bryce Point (not the venue for any official events during that week) between some telescope users and other Park visitors. Let me give you some more background. The people who sit patiently and cheerfully at the entrance/fee stations in the hot sun and cold rain were treated VERY poorly by some people who arrived with telescopes and expected free entrance and other accommodations by the Park. The law enforcement folks who told me about this emphasized that they did not seem to be SLAS members but perhaps ALCON visitors who did not know the rules. (Funny, I thought that treating people kindly and with respect was a rule we all learned by Kindergarten.) It was, apparently, some of these people who set up scopes at Bryce Point. When one of the LE rangers went out to talk to them, I believe after receiving complaints about their behavior to other visitors, they were EXTREMELY rude and abusive to the ranger. The ranger, who is one of the nicest people I've met here (see below), lost his temper - I was told for the first time in his career - due to the behavior of these astro visitors. So, a handful of very rude and obnoxious people gave all of us a bit of a black mark. Again, the LE rangers did not blame SLAS but I felt a bit responsible as an amateur astronomer. I wish we (not WE in any official capacity) knew who was responsible. We could ask that they never again come to Bryce, SLC, SLAS events or Utah. We already have enough screwballs here, right?

For the record, everyone I've met here is very nice. These are great people who do more than you can imagine, for low pay and sometimes for seasonal or otherwise insecure employment. Even my job, though full-time, is not permanent. In four years when the funding runs out, so does my job. But in the meant time, I would be very disappointed if I heard that any of you were in the neighborhood and didn't look me up. Come anytime and we'll go observe together under some of the greatest skies I've ever known.

Sorry to take so much time, but there's an unrelated matter I want to let you all know about: Yesterday morning I got a call from long-time SLAS member Dwight Ball. He is in intensive care at the VA hospital. His heart is failing him and he says that he is likely to need a transplant in a few months. I was rather alarmed by his call, as it seemed that he had called to say goodbye - he didn't expect to live. I called him back last night and was pleased to speak with him and know that he's still with us. He was in better spirits and sounded better, too, but he will be in the hospital for at least another week. If any of you who know him, or even those who don't want to give him a call or go see him, I'm sure that he would appreciate it. He doesn't have a lot of family, so his SLAS family is very important to him. His cell phone number is 801.336.0635. He can take calls at the hospital, but I don't know in what room to find him. Take a moment if you can to cheer up another good friend.

If any of you want to email me, my email at the Park is kim_hyatt@nps.gov.

Take care all, Kim

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I'll have to put in my views on the Bryce staff.    Being that German Platero and I were doing the scout presentations between 6 and 8 p.m. every evening , we were unable to attend the mandatory ranger led nightly briefings and orientations.   Kevin Poe was very accomodating in grant us an exemption for which we are grateful.  Also, because of our inability to attend those briefings, neither of us had the opportunity to properly get our cool "Astronomy Volunteer" windbreakers.  When I mentioned this to one of the rangers on the stargazing field, they told me to go directly to the Visitors Center.  Even though it was about 9 p.m. a good deal of the staff were either at the information desk or in their respective offices.  I was led back to Jan who immediately came to my aid, took me upstairs and retrieved both my and German's jackets.  While talking to her I found out that she was already doing 4 hours worth of overtime that night and she had no idea when she'd be able to go home.  She didn't seem upset and was happy to accomodate me.    At about 11:15 p.m. each evening German and I led a number of scouts and their parents to the back of the visitor's center, (with Kevin Poe's blessings) to have them point out 10 constellations and 6 conspicuous stars with laser pointers.  After that we then took them into the Visitor's Center to fill our their Boy Scout Requirements blue-cards.  Even though the center was supposed to close at midnight, the staff was more than accomodating and let us finish what had to be done.   I would also like to thank rangers Kevin Doxstater and Geoff Goins (he had the big 26" telesope at the west end of the field Wednesday evening) for making arrangements and setting up the audio/visual equipment at the Bryce Canyon Lodge  that both German and I needed in order to do our scout presentations.   Despite the fact that my telescope had a mental breakdown on trying to do a 2-star fix, I had an enjoyable time at Bryce this year.  The other draw back was that neither German nor I could attend any of those ranger led briefings, the star-b-que, and the awards banquet due to the time conflict. From: Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times Two years ago I stopped in just for the night at Bryce. I met Richard and while I wouldn't call it a "run in" I did have words with him and an opportunity to see him interact with the guests as he set up his scope. Lets just say he wasn't just having a bad night this year.Steve

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:49:46 -0700 From: dalel2112@yahoo.com To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Bryce times

Hi all,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents about Bryce.  First....BEST OBSERVING EVER!! I have never had a better time with my 10".  I've been there 5 out of the last 6 years and this was the best weather, trans, seeing, etc., I have seen there.

Next, absolute kudos to Kevin Poe and most of his staff (I'll get to that) for their continuing support and organization to accommodate us. 

Also, it was great to meet new members and re-acquaint with others on the field, at the campsites, and at Alcon.

I would also like to say thanks to all the guys who organized and executed the Alcon events.  I witnessed tireless effort on their parts to make it a pure success.

My only concern was that I had a run-in with Richard, the volunteer, ranger.  I know he means well.  However, he is coarse, abrasive and his people skills are sorely lacking.  I feel we have established a rapport with Bryce and are for the most part, all professionals when we are on the field.  Richard tends to treat us all like dumb cattle.  I know many feel similarly.  We don't need, or deserve to feel like kids on leashes. 

Otherwise, it's a great time their.

Dale W. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php                        

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