Patrick, The JPL Ephemeris program shows a significant TFOV difference on the order of arcmins for images taken at the same moment from Utah and Hawaii. I have not figured out the projection magnification, but including magnification, the stereoscopic effect would be within the human 1 arcmin detection tolerance. *********************************************** Date__(UT)__HR:MN R.A._(ICRF/J2000.0)_DEC *********************************************** Salt Lake City 2010-Sep-23 09:00 m 23 50 39.30 +03 58 23.6 Kihei-AMOS Remote Maui Exper. Site Earth 399 2010-Sep-23 09:00 m 23 52 57.06 +04 15 32.5 The difference in the 0.025 value mentioned upthread and JPL values refers to the arctan of 6,000 miles/240,000 miles ratios. For very small angles, the half arcsin approximation is used. The arcsin value of 1/2 times 0.025 ratios is also 0.0125 _radians_. For very small angles, radians nearly equals ratios. The 0.0125 radians still have to be converted into degrees ( 0.0125 x 180/pi) which equals a topocentric parallax between the observing points of approx. _0.7 degrees_ or 43 arcmins. This is approximately the apparent position distance shown in the JPL Horizon's data. The parallax is evident in the image: the terminator on the right-hand lunar southeast limb (lower right quadrant) image is not in the same place as in the other image. The terminator difference is subtle, but it is there. Pulling a 3D effect out of the images will be difficult because of soft focus problems in both images. Red/blue anaglyph or "wobble" stereo projection may be more effective, but I suspect that soft focus will defeat both. http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/temp/stereo01.jpg I recommend repeating the experiment but concentrating on a higher magnification image of a portion of the lunar terminator that includes terrain with a lot of relief. E.g. - http://lpod.wikispaces.com/May+27%2C+2010 As others have noted, you may still have to rely on supplemental synthetic parallax using Photoshop. Concentrate on making a red/blue anaglyph similar to this: http://lpod.wikispaces.com/August+11%2C+2008 - but I recommend using lower magnification than a full Moon - something between a full Moon magnification and the August 11 2008 LPOD image. E.g. see the May 27 2010 LPOD. You and Rick might try a series of terminator photos starting at a one-quarter terminator shot and increasing magnification down to a 100 km crater level. I suspect that there is some inverse relationship between the degree of magnification applied and the success of the stereoscopic effect. Other examples use: 1) "wobble" stereoprojection ( two blinking gifs, alternating by 1/2 sec intervals) where two images are taken from the same observing point and the baseline separation providing the parallax is created by taking images at two different times. This method is never fully satisfactory because lunar libration always distorts the angle relative to the observing point at which the images are taken. The wobble projection technique can also be done using two observing point images. See "Cleomedes" image at Astrominsk http://objectstyle.org/astronominsk/Moon/Moon_stereo_en.htm 2) "red/blue" anaglyphs using the single observing point diurnal image method. This method also suffers from the libration distortion. E.g. - http://sfire.astroclub.kiev.ua/uploads/moon-2010/copernicus_stereo.jpg 2) A fully synthetic parallax image is made where a 2D image is fabricated by projecting one image into a 3D sphere and then digitally rotating the sphere. Other examples: http://lpod.wikispaces.com/June+14%2C+2010 http://sfire.astroclub.kiev.ua/uploads/moon-2010/copernicus_stereo.jpg http://lpod.wikispaces.com/May+27%2C+2010 http://objectstyle.org/astronominsk/Moon/Moon_stereo_en.htm Link page to guides http://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Anaglyph Synthetic parallax example http://www.lpod.org/archive/LPOD-2004-10-02.htm 3D Full Moon - synthetic parallax http://www.flickr.com/photos/bufivla/3191152679/ 3D Full Moon - synthetic parallax http://astroanarchy.blogspot.com/2010/05/one-more-anaglyph-redcyan-3d-moon.h... - Clear Skies, Kurt
Thanks for your thoughts on this Kurt. When I look at the pairs using Chuck's cross-eyed technique I'd swear I'm seeing something that gives the images a spherical appearance, rather than just a flat circle. But, as I mentioned in my post earlier this morning I see the same thing when I look at the version with two copies of the same image. I like the idea of making a red/blue anaglyph and will see about giving that a try (others are welcome to use the images I've posted to take on the red/blue anaglyph task if they like). Rob and I have discussed trying it again in a couple of months when the full Moon will be much higher in the sky. Now back to taking data... :) patrick On 23 Sep 2010, at 23:31, Canopus56 wrote:
Patrick,
The JPL Ephemeris program shows a significant TFOV difference on the order of arcmins for images taken at the same moment from Utah and Hawaii. I have not figured out the projection magnification, but including magnification, the stereoscopic effect would be within the human 1 arcmin detection tolerance.
*********************************************** Date__(UT)__HR:MN R.A._(ICRF/J2000.0)_DEC *********************************************** Salt Lake City 2010-Sep-23 09:00 m 23 50 39.30 +03 58 23.6 Kihei-AMOS Remote Maui Exper. Site Earth 399 2010-Sep-23 09:00 m 23 52 57.06 +04 15 32.5
The difference in the 0.025 value mentioned upthread and JPL values refers to the arctan of 6,000 miles/240,000 miles ratios. For very small angles, the half arcsin approximation is used. The arcsin value of 1/2 times 0.025 ratios is also 0.0125 _radians_. For very small angles, radians nearly equals ratios. The 0.0125 radians still have to be converted into degrees ( 0.0125 x 180/pi) which equals a topocentric parallax between the observing points of approx. _0.7 degrees_ or 43 arcmins. This is approximately the apparent position distance shown in the JPL Horizon's data.
The parallax is evident in the image: the terminator on the right-hand lunar southeast limb (lower right quadrant) image is not in the same place as in the other image. The terminator difference is subtle, but it is there.
Pulling a 3D effect out of the images will be difficult because of soft focus problems in both images. Red/blue anaglyph or "wobble" stereo projection may be more effective, but I suspect that soft focus will defeat both. http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/temp/stereo01.jpg
I recommend repeating the experiment but concentrating on a higher magnification image of a portion of the lunar terminator that includes terrain with a lot of relief. E.g. -
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/May+27%2C+2010
As others have noted, you may still have to rely on supplemental synthetic parallax using Photoshop.
Concentrate on making a red/blue anaglyph similar to this:
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/August+11%2C+2008
- but I recommend using lower magnification than a full Moon - something between a full Moon magnification and the August 11 2008 LPOD image. E.g. see the May 27 2010 LPOD. You and Rick might try a series of terminator photos starting at a one-quarter terminator shot and increasing magnification down to a 100 km crater level. I suspect that there is some inverse relationship between the degree of magnification applied and the success of the stereoscopic effect.
Other examples use:
1) "wobble" stereoprojection ( two blinking gifs, alternating by 1/2 sec intervals) where two images are taken from the same observing point and the baseline separation providing the parallax is created by taking images at two different times. This method is never fully satisfactory because lunar libration always distorts the angle relative to the observing point at which the images are taken. The wobble projection technique can also be done using two observing point images.
See "Cleomedes" image at Astrominsk http://objectstyle.org/astronominsk/Moon/Moon_stereo_en.htm
2) "red/blue" anaglyphs using the single observing point diurnal image method. This method also suffers from the libration distortion. E.g. -
http://sfire.astroclub.kiev.ua/uploads/moon-2010/copernicus_stereo.jpg
2) A fully synthetic parallax image is made where a 2D image is fabricated by projecting one image into a 3D sphere and then digitally rotating the sphere.
Other examples:
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/June+14%2C+2010 http://sfire.astroclub.kiev.ua/uploads/moon-2010/copernicus_stereo.jpg
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/May+27%2C+2010
http://objectstyle.org/astronominsk/Moon/Moon_stereo_en.htm
Link page to guides http://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Anaglyph
Synthetic parallax example http://www.lpod.org/archive/LPOD-2004-10-02.htm
3D Full Moon - synthetic parallax http://www.flickr.com/photos/bufivla/3191152679/
3D Full Moon - synthetic parallax http://astroanarchy.blogspot.com/2010/05/one-more-anaglyph-redcyan-3d-moon.h...
- Clear Skies, Kurt
I feel that some small amount of three-dimensionality is visible. It was especially apparent to me when I cut the images apart and switched them. Thanks, Joe --- On Fri, 9/24/10, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> wrote:
From: Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Do you see stereo? To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 2:54 AM Thanks for your thoughts on this Kurt.
When I look at the pairs using Chuck's cross-eyed technique I'd swear I'm seeing something that gives the images a spherical appearance, rather than just a flat circle. But, as I mentioned in my post earlier this morning I see the same thing when I look at the version with two copies of the same image.
I like the idea of making a red/blue anaglyph and will see about giving that a try (others are welcome to use the images I've posted to take on the red/blue anaglyph task if they like).
Rob and I have discussed trying it again in a couple of months when the full Moon will be much higher in the sky.
Now back to taking data... :)
patrick
On 23 Sep 2010, at 23:31, Canopus56 wrote:
Patrick,
The JPL Ephemeris program shows a significant TFOV difference on the order of arcmins for images taken at the same moment from Utah and Hawaii. I have not figured out the projection magnification, but including magnification, the stereoscopic effect would be within the human 1 arcmin detection tolerance.
*********************************************** Date__(UT)__HR:MN R.A._(ICRF/J2000.0)_DEC *********************************************** Salt Lake City 2010-Sep-23 09:00 m 23 50 39.30 +03 58 23.6 Kihei-AMOS Remote Maui Exper. Site Earth 399 2010-Sep-23 09:00 m 23 52 57.06 +04 15 32.5
The difference in the 0.025 value mentioned upthread and JPL values refers to the arctan of 6,000 miles/240,000 miles ratios. For very small angles, the half arcsin approximation is used. The arcsin value of 1/2 times 0.025 ratios is also 0.0125 _radians_. For very small angles, radians nearly equals ratios. The 0.0125 radians still have to be converted into degrees ( 0.0125 x 180/pi) which equals a topocentric parallax between the observing points of approx. _0.7 degrees_ or 43 arcmins. This is approximately the apparent position distance shown in the JPL Horizon's data.
The parallax is evident in the image: the terminator on the right-hand lunar southeast limb (lower right quadrant) image is not in the same place as in the other image. The terminator difference is subtle, but it is there.
Pulling a 3D effect out of the images will be difficult because of soft focus problems in both images. Red/blue anaglyph or "wobble" stereo projection may be more effective, but I suspect that soft focus will defeat both. http://users.wirelessbeehive.com/~paw/temp/stereo01.jpg
I recommend repeating the experiment but concentrating
on a higher magnification image of a portion of the lunar terminator that includes terrain with a lot of relief. E.g. -
As others have noted, you may still have to rely on
supplemental synthetic parallax using Photoshop.
Concentrate on making a red/blue anaglyph similar to
this:
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/August+11%2C+2008
- but I recommend using lower magnification than a
full Moon - something between a full Moon magnification and the August 11 2008 LPOD image. E.g. see the May 27 2010 LPOD. You and Rick might try a series of terminator photos starting at a one-quarter terminator shot and increasing magnification down to a 100 km crater level. I suspect that there is some inverse relationship between the degree of magnification applied and the success of the stereoscopic effect.
Other examples use:
1) "wobble" stereoprojection ( two blinking gifs,
alternating by 1/2 sec intervals) where two images are taken from the same observing point and the baseline separation providing the parallax is created by taking images at two different times. This method is never fully satisfactory because lunar libration always distorts the angle relative to the observing point at which the images are taken. The wobble projection technique can also be done using two observing point images.
See "Cleomedes" image at Astrominsk http://objectstyle.org/astronominsk/Moon/Moon_stereo_en.htm
2) "red/blue" anaglyphs using the single observing
point diurnal image method. This method also suffers from the libration distortion. E.g. -
http://sfire.astroclub.kiev.ua/uploads/moon-2010/copernicus_stereo.jpg
2) A fully synthetic parallax image is made where a 2D
image is fabricated by projecting one image into a 3D sphere and then digitally rotating the sphere.
Other examples:
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/June+14%2C+2010 http://sfire.astroclub.kiev.ua/uploads/moon-2010/copernicus_stereo.jpg
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/May+27%2C+2010
http://objectstyle.org/astronominsk/Moon/Moon_stereo_en.htm
Link page to guides http://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Anaglyph
Synthetic parallax example http://www.lpod.org/archive/LPOD-2004-10-02.htm
3D Full Moon - synthetic parallax http://www.flickr.com/photos/bufivla/3191152679/
3D Full Moon - synthetic parallax http://astroanarchy.blogspot.com/2010/05/one-more-anaglyph-redcyan-3d-moon.h...
- Clear Skies, Kurt
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participants (3)
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Canopus56 -
Joe Bauman -
Patrick Wiggins