Evolution statement excludes 'design'
Buttars threatens public referendum on the issue By Jennifer Toomer-Cook Deseret Morning News The state school board's proposed position statement on teaching evolution doesn't give an inch for a state senator's "intelligent design" concepts. That bothers Sen. Chris Buttars, R-West Jordan. He wants the board to insert language saying humans didn't evolve from any other species. If the board doesn't, he'll carry a bill that could require intelligent design be taught in public schools to counterbalance human evolution discussions. Or he may go for a public vote on the issue. Continued: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600158989,00.html Patrick
I haven't yet read Ms. Toomer-Cook's article, but- I'm in discussion right now with a person who has met with Buttars. Waiting for permission to quote this person on the list, but for now I can tell you that, by Buttars' own admission, Buttars said that the reason he doesn't believe in evolution is because an LDS prophet stated once that it isn't true. He is definitely on a religious crusade, any perception of ID as science has absolutely nothing to do with his motives. He is not capable of comprehending the issue in the terms we have been discussing here. --- Patrick Wiggins <paw@trilobyte.net> wrote:
Buttars threatens public referendum on the issue
By Jennifer Toomer-Cook Deseret Morning News
The state school board's proposed position statement on teaching evolution doesn't give an inch for a state senator's "intelligent design" concepts. That bothers Sen. Chris Buttars, R-West Jordan. He wants the board to insert language saying humans didn't evolve from any other species. If the board doesn't, he'll carry a bill that could require intelligent design be taught in public schools to counterbalance human evolution discussions. Or he may go for a public vote on the issue.
Continued:
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You know, I totally suspected those were Buttars motives. I'd bet he is going off of the statement made by I think it was ET Benson back in the early 80s (?), could have been 70s. I remember being given a copy of it at BYU in the early 80s in one of my religion classes there. Was never mentioned in my biology class however. I read somewhere that the church never cannonized that statement, that it is considered more his (ET's) own personal opinion and that the LDS church officially has no doctrine concerning evolution, which rather frustrates some of my more learned friends who are still active members. There are lots of statements by former LDS prophets and GAs that were never cannonized and are considered more of a personal opinion as opposed to official church doctrine. Sounds like Buttars bishop or SP needs to have a chat with him. Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote: I haven't yet read Ms. Toomer-Cook's article, but- I'm in discussion right now with a person who has met with Buttars. Waiting for permission to quote this person on the list, but for now I can tell you that, by Buttars' own admission, Buttars said that the reason he doesn't believe in evolution is because an LDS prophet stated once that it isn't true. He is definitely on a religious crusade, any perception of ID as science has absolutely nothing to do with his motives. He is not capable of comprehending the issue in the terms we have been discussing here. --- Patrick Wiggins wrote:
Buttars threatens public referendum on the issue
By Jennifer Toomer-Cook Deseret Morning News
The state school board's proposed position statement on teaching evolution doesn't give an inch for a state senator's "intelligent design" concepts. That bothers Sen. Chris Buttars, R-West Jordan. He wants the board to insert language saying humans didn't evolve from any other species. If the board doesn't, he'll carry a bill that could require intelligent design be taught in public schools to counterbalance human evolution discussions. Or he may go for a public vote on the issue.
Continued:
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For the record, no LDS prophet (speaking as such) has, to my knowledge anyway (and I've researched this a fair bit), ever said that "evolution isn't true". That said, there have been some church leaders who have made statements to that effect; most notably, Joseph Fielding Smith (in his awful work "Man, His Origin and Destiny", which at the time was strongly countered by Apostle James E. Talmage, a geologist), his son-in-law Bruce McConkie (backing JFS up) in "Mormon Doctrine", and more recently, Boyd K. Packer at a talk at BYU several years ago. Both the books cited were categorized by church prophets David O. McKay and Spencer W. Kimball as "the author's opinion" only. The "official" position of the LDS Church is "we really don't know". FWIW, -Rich --- Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:
I haven't yet read Ms. Toomer-Cook's article, but-
I'm in discussion right now with a person who has met with Buttars. Waiting for permission to quote this person on the list, but for now I can tell you that, by Buttars' own admission, Buttars said that the reason he doesn't believe in evolution is because an LDS prophet stated once that it isn't true.
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My apologies to any of our non-LDS friends who read these posts with references to the dominant local culture. I am not trying to be exclusive in any way. Rich wrote: | For the record, no LDS prophet (speaking as such) has, | to my knowledge anyway (and I've researched this a | fair bit), ever said that "evolution isn't true". I'm reminded of a Sunday school teacher I had about 30 years ago who (whom?) I admired a lot, but whose standing in my judgment dropped a notch when he said that Abraham was the greatest astronomer who had ever lived. He was referring, of course, to the Book of Abraham and to Abraham's discussion with God about the universe and astronomical bodies. However, when I read that book I find nothing that fits with what we know from modern astronomy, and since I trust much of what we've learned from astronomy, I conclude that the words of Abraham are probably allegorical. However, I'm sure that people of Buttars's ilk will always assume that the scriptures MUST be true and scientists MUST, therefore, be wrong. They and the Taliban have much in common. Too bad we probably can't convince Buttars to convert and move to Afghanistan.
My apologies to any of our non-LDS friends who read these posts with references to the dominant local culture. I am not trying to be exclusive in any way. Actually, as a relatively recent Utahn and non-LDS type, I find this aspect of the discussion rather interesting. It's good to know there lively debate going on.
Rich, you had better let Senator Buttars know this. He stated in a recent meeting that that was his reason for disbelieving evolution. He may have as much trouble reading church history and doctrine as he does with scientific articles. I'm still waiting for permission to quote my source. I can tell you that this person holds an elected public office and has met with the Senator. --- Richard Tenney <retenney@yahoo.com> wrote:
For the record, no LDS prophet (speaking as such) has, to my knowledge anyway (and I've researched this a fair bit), ever said that "evolution isn't true".
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Any chance you can find out the exact source/article(s) Buttars is claiming as the foundation of his views? That would really be helpful for counterpoints with him. Might not change his mind, but could make some headway with normal citizens. I did find an article from the February 2002 Ensign on lds.org last night. The address in the browser didn't link directly to the article, it linked to some search results so I tried to post the article but got my message rejected for being too large. So I copied and posted the article on my website at http://www.warnerit.com/evolution/feb2002ensign.htm I also found another article in the May 2004 New Era which I copied and posted at http://www.warnerit.com/evolution/may2004newera.htm They leave a bit of room for interpretation in my opinion, but for someone who wanted to believe that the church is saying the evolution of man absolutely did not occur, they certainly can be interpreted that way. Are members supposed to believe what is published in church magazines or are they supposed to take these things as leaders personal opinions? This is a sincere question, not meant to be ridiculing or anything. Not trying to pick on the LDS church, but Buttars is LDS and according to Chuck's source he wants to enforce his own personal religious views as law that applies to everyone in the state regardless of whether they are LDS or not and regardless of whether other LDS people interpret the same things the same way he does. That is just wrong. There is a good reason we have a separation of church and state and that needs to be maintained. If I was still active in the LDS church I would feel the same way. I am still looking for the statement I received a copy of while at BYU to see who said it, if not Benson. I do remember much of the wording so I think I will recognize it once I find it. Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote: Rich, you had better let Senator Buttars know this. He stated in a recent meeting that that was his reason for disbelieving evolution. He may have as much trouble reading church history and doctrine as he does with scientific articles. I'm still waiting for permission to quote my source. I can tell you that this person holds an elected public office and has met with the Senator. --- Richard Tenney wrote:
For the record, no LDS prophet (speaking as such) has, to my knowledge anyway (and I've researched this a fair bit), ever said that "evolution isn't true".
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I'm doing what I can, it all depends on how public my source wants to be and if they want to be even more forthcoming than they have been. Understand that this person is in a difficult position. --- South Jordan Mom <sjordanmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
Any chance you can find out the exact source/article(s) Buttars is claiming as the foundation of his views? That would really be helpful for counterpoints with him. Might not change his mind, but could make some headway with normal citizens.
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Thanks for posting those- they are about as precise and informative as a horoscope- and equally as impossible to prove or disprove. Vague generalities. Those who reference scripture as supposedly literally bolstering their point of view use a typical argument: 'There is is, plain as day, if you don't get it the way I get it, then there's something wrong with you.' As a person who was raised and educated in a structured religious environment until my early teens, and among many who were scriptural literalists, I always interpreted the "in God's image" line as referring to the structure of the soul, the thought process of choosing good over evil, the experience of love and understanding, charity, compassion, tolerance. It never had anything to do with physicality and I always thought those who took that point of view were missing the true message. --- South Jordan Mom <sjordanmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
Any chance you can find out the exact source/article(s) Buttars is claiming as the foundation of his views? That would really be helpful for counterpoints with him. Might not change his mind, but could make some headway with normal citizens.
I did find an article from the February 2002 Ensign on lds.org last night. The address in the browser didn't link directly to the article, it linked to some search results so I tried to post the article but got my message rejected for being too large. So I copied and posted the article on my website at http://www.warnerit.com/evolution/feb2002ensign.htm
I also found another article in the May 2004 New Era which I copied and posted at http://www.warnerit.com/evolution/may2004newera.htm
They leave a bit of room for interpretation in my opinion, but for someone who wanted to believe that the church is saying the evolution of man absolutely did not occur, they certainly can be interpreted that way.
Are members supposed to believe what is published in church magazines or are they supposed to take these things as leaders personal opinions? This is a sincere question, not meant to be ridiculing or anything.
Not trying to pick on the LDS church, but Buttars is LDS and according to Chuck's source he wants to enforce his own personal religious views as law that applies to everyone in the state regardless of whether they are LDS or not and regardless of whether other LDS people interpret the same things the same way he does. That is just wrong. There is a good reason we have a separation of church and state and that needs to be maintained. If I was still active in the LDS church I would feel the same way.
I am still looking for the statement I received a copy of while at BYU to see who said it, if not Benson. I do remember much of the wording so I think I will recognize it once I find it.
Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote: Rich, you had better let Senator Buttars know this. He stated in a recent meeting that that was his reason for disbelieving evolution. He may have as much trouble reading church history and doctrine as he does with scientific articles.
I'm still waiting for permission to quote my source.
I can tell you that this person holds an elected public office and has met with the Senator.
--- Richard Tenney wrote:
For the record, no LDS prophet (speaking as such) has, to my knowledge anyway (and I've researched this a fair bit), ever said that "evolution isn't true".
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One of the best books I've read on the whole Creation story, Adam and Eve, etc, is by the Jewish Rabbi Harold Kushner in his very interesting book "How Good Do We Have To Be" for any of you interested in some thoughtful philosophy that makes (in my mind anyway) quite a bit of sense, tying in the evolutionary perspective nicely with the "traditional" judeo-christian account from Genesis. -Rich --- Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote:
Thanks for posting those- they are about as precise and informative as a horoscope- and equally as impossible to prove or disprove.
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thanks Rich, I will put that on my list and will hope to get to it very soon. Richard Tenney <retenney@yahoo.com> wrote:One of the best books I've read on the whole Creation story, Adam and Eve, etc, is by the Jewish Rabbi Harold Kushner in his very interesting book "How Good Do We Have To Be" for any of you interested in some thoughtful philosophy that makes (in my mind anyway) quite a bit of sense, tying in the evolutionary perspective nicely with the "traditional" judeo-christian account from Genesis. -Rich --- Chuck Hards wrote:
Thanks for posting those- they are about as precise and informative as a horoscope- and equally as impossible to prove or disprove.
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I read it a year ago and is well worth the time. Small paperback and an easy read but very reflective and inspiring! Jim South Jordan Mom <sjordanmom@yahoo.com> wrote: thanks Rich, I will put that on my list and will hope to get to it very soon. Richard Tenney wrote:One of the best books I've read on the whole Creation story, Adam and Eve, etc, is by the Jewish Rabbi Harold Kushner in his very interesting book "How Good Do We Have To Be" for any of you interested in some thoughtful philosophy that makes (in my mind anyway) quite a bit of sense, tying in the evolutionary perspective nicely with the "traditional" judeo-christian account from Genesis. -Rich --- Chuck Hards wrote:
Thanks for posting those- they are about as precise and informative as a horoscope- and equally as impossible to prove or disprove.
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com
--- South Jordan Mom <sjordanmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
Any chance you can find out the exact source/article(s) Buttars is claiming as the foundation of his views? That would really be helpful for counterpoints with him. Might not change his mind, but could make some headway with normal citizens. <snip>
SJM - I don't have the direct answer to your question, but the following lead may be of interest. After this story first broke there was an op-ed piece in the Sunday SLC Tribune with an op-article by two BYU Geology Professors. It was probably on either the 13th or 20th and stated that the senator was incorrect that there was insufficient fossil proof of the descent of hominds. That op-ed article also refered to a 1980's GA statement on evolution that seem to mirror the Catholic position, i.e. - scriptures are a spiritual textbook, not a science textbook. I did not retain a copy and would have to search it out. I believe it was either on Sunday, Aug. 13 or, Sunday Aug. 20 - or maybe it was the 6th. I was unable to retrieve it from the SLC online archives. Maybe someone else in this listserv retained it. - C ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
participants (8)
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Canopus56 -
Chuck Hards -
Jim Stitley -
Kim Hyatt -
Michael Carnes -
Patrick Wiggins -
Richard Tenney -
South Jordan Mom