Re: [Utah-astronomy] A Plea for SAO Numbers ST Sept 2011
That said, I'm not it the camp that believes everything must be streamlined and made easier for the sake of novices or the new "typical" modern amateur.
As amateurs, we enjoyed many technological advances in the hobby over the last 20 years. The cost of quality optics, both in telescopes and eyepieces, the increase in automation, and the dramatic change in camera technology have revolutionized the hobby. But the benefits that we have enjoyed are not only technology driven: they are also result of economics. If there is no market, then the advances will not continue. Even with these advances, amateur astronomy participation, at least at telescope use level, continues decline, as evidenced by the continual aging of club membership. Conversely, given rising light pollution, one of the most frequent uses of our state and national parks by citizens is stargazing, without telescopes. One way to increase participation is to streamline everything for new market entrants. The editor deleted portions of my letter to the ST editors, concerned that if since they changed ST to better appeal to new entrants, the editors should also take the simple, common sense step of making their articles easier to use with GOTO telescopes. I also noted in a deleted sentence that if the ST editors can't act, their advertisers should advocate for the change.
If they are too entrenched in "instant" gratification, they will fall away, sooner or later.
While some young people are engrossed in the cultures of personality and consumer technology, for most potential new entrants and myself, it is more a matter of available leisure time. For example, you periodically leave and return to this listserv claiming that work is taking up all of your time and that you have no leisure time for astronomy anymore. Setting up, tearing down and checking out a couple of objects takes an hour after work. Anything that streamlines things and cuts that time down will help the hobby. It's about being practical in an economics driven world.
I suspect there is an online SAO cross-reference table available anyway. If not, there's your winter project, Kurt
That was last winter's project. http://fisherka.csolutionshosting.net/astronote/cat/LX200SAOXRefTable.pdf Clear Skies - Kurt
I've responded roughly point-by-point: On 8/9/11, Canopus56 <canopus56@yahoo.com> wrote:
As amateurs, we enjoyed many technological advances in the hobby over the last 20 years. The cost of quality optics, both in telescopes and eyepieces, the increase in automation, and the dramatic change in camera technology have revolutionized the hobby. But the benefits that we have enjoyed are not only technology driven: they are also result of economics. If there is no market, then the advances will not continue.
I won't argue that in general, except the price of primary mirrors, which has skyrocketed in the larger sizes. I would argue that the tech benefits are in the eye of the beholder. People have forgotten the simplicity of setting up a non-electronic driven mount/scope. Even Dobs are largely headed in the GoTo direction, sadly. The camera advances only benefit imagers. The vast majority of amateurs are still visual observers. Is there an umbrella effect for the hobby over-all? Perhaps, but I come from a generation that largely made their own equipment. It's not that hard.
Even with these advances, amateur astronomy participation, at least at telescope use level, continues decline, as evidenced by the continual aging of club membership.
I don't see this as a bad thing. The club was a handful of people when I joined and we had a blast. My enjoyment has never been dependant on large numbers, although I know a lot of current members enjoy the crowds. I don't feel any personal responsibility to proselytize. If someone asks for help directly, I'm happy to do so, but am not inclined to just hang out a "free astronomy lessons" sign.
Conversely, given rising light pollution, one of the most frequent uses of our state and national parks by citizens is stargazing, without telescopes. One way to increase participation is to streamline everything for new market entrants. The editor deleted portions of my letter to the ST editors, concerned that if since they changed ST to better appeal to new entrants, the editors should also take the simple, common sense step of making their articles easier to use with GOTO telescopes. I also noted in a deleted sentence that if the ST editors can't act, their advertisers should advocate for the change.
I really, really hope that advertisers NEVER get to determine editorial content of a magazine such as S&T. I'm probably in heavy denial, but I'd rather read what the writer wants to offer; not a manufacturer. The magazines are heavy with equipment reviews as it is.
While some young people are engrossed in the cultures of personality and consumer technology, for most potential new entrants and myself, it is more a matter of available leisure time. For example, you periodically leave and return to this listserv claiming that work is taking up all of your time and that you have no leisure time for astronomy anymore. Setting up, tearing down and checking out a couple of objects takes an hour after work. Anything that streamlines things and cuts that time down will help the hobby.
You don't know the whole story. I was without internet access at home for a couple of months, and usually post to this website at the office. If you worked alongside me for a day or two, you wouldn't be going out after work, either, or you'd only get 3 hours of sleep and miss your dinner. Again Kurt, I just don't see the motivation to streamline a hobby that is already being handed to novices on a platter, compared to the "old days". Honestly, sometimes the club mindset approaches a religious style and that turns me off.
It's about being practical in an economics driven world.
Pick your windmills carefully. The hobby works just fine as it is. It will evolve at the pace it's supposed to evolve at.
That was last winter's project.
So you're covered. Did you call attention to it in your letter to S&T? With a less aggressive approach, I'm sure they'd call attention to it so others could use it. Problem solved, without ruffling a lot of editor's and publisher's feathers.
The main point I agree with is that it seems people have forgotten how easy a dob is to set up. Truss designs make it a little harder, but it is possible to make a telescope that is ready for observing in minutes. People seem intimidated by learning the sky well enough for non goto use.
I've responded roughly point-by-point:
On 8/9/11, Canopus56 <canopus56@yahoo.com> wrote:
As amateurs, we enjoyed many technological advances in the hobby over the last 20 years. The cost of quality optics, both in telescopes and eyepieces, the increase in automation, and the dramatic change in camera technology have revolutionized the hobby. But the benefits that we have enjoyed are not only technology driven: they are also result of economics. If there is no market, then the advances will not continue.
I won't argue that in general, except the price of primary mirrors, which has skyrocketed in the larger sizes.
I would argue that the tech benefits are in the eye of the beholder. People have forgotten the simplicity of setting up a non-electronic driven mount/scope. Even Dobs are largely headed in the GoTo direction, sadly. The camera advances only benefit imagers. The vast majority of amateurs are still visual observers. Is there an umbrella effect for the hobby over-all? Perhaps, but I come from a generation that largely made their own equipment. It's not that hard.
Even with these advances, amateur astronomy participation, at least at telescope use level, continues decline, as evidenced by the continual aging of club membership.
I don't see this as a bad thing. The club was a handful of people when I joined and we had a blast. My enjoyment has never been dependant on large numbers, although I know a lot of current members enjoy the crowds. I don't feel any personal responsibility to proselytize. If someone asks for help directly, I'm happy to do so, but am not inclined to just hang out a "free astronomy lessons" sign.
Conversely, given rising light pollution, one of the most frequent uses of our state and national parks by citizens is stargazing, without telescopes. One way to increase participation is to streamline everything for new market entrants. The editor deleted portions of my letter to the ST editors, concerned that if since they changed ST to better appeal to new entrants, the editors should also take the simple, common sense step of making their articles easier to use with GOTO telescopes. I also noted in a deleted sentence that if the ST editors can't act, their advertisers should advocate for the change.
I really, really hope that advertisers NEVER get to determine editorial content of a magazine such as S&T. I'm probably in heavy denial, but I'd rather read what the writer wants to offer; not a manufacturer. The magazines are heavy with equipment reviews as it is.
While some young people are engrossed in the cultures of personality and consumer technology, for most potential new entrants and myself, it is more a matter of available leisure time. For example, you periodically leave and return to this listserv claiming that work is taking up all of your time and that you have no leisure time for astronomy anymore. Setting up, tearing down and checking out a couple of objects takes an hour after work. Anything that streamlines things and cuts that time down will help the hobby.
You don't know the whole story. I was without internet access at home for a couple of months, and usually post to this website at the office. If you worked alongside me for a day or two, you wouldn't be going out after work, either, or you'd only get 3 hours of sleep and miss your dinner.
Again Kurt, I just don't see the motivation to streamline a hobby that is already being handed to novices on a platter, compared to the "old days". Honestly, sometimes the club mindset approaches a religious style and that turns me off.
It's about being practical in an economics driven world.
Pick your windmills carefully. The hobby works just fine as it is. It will evolve at the pace it's supposed to evolve at.
That was last winter's project.
So you're covered. Did you call attention to it in your letter to S&T? With a less aggressive approach, I'm sure they'd call attention to it so others could use it.
Problem solved, without ruffling a lot of editor's and publisher's feathers.
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On 8/10/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The main point I agree with is that it seems people have forgotten how easy a dob is to set up. Truss designs make it a little harder, but it is possible to make a telescope that is ready for observing in minutes. People seem intimidated by learning the sky well enough for non goto use.
Spot-on, Erik. It's not a matter of free time for most people, but mental laziness. Nobody has a stop-watch going during set up. I don't even have a problem with taking the extra time to set up my equatorial. The main reason I'm not more active is that I have to get up at 4:30 AM to go to work, then work 10-hour days. I sometimes don't get back home for over 12 hours. In summer, I'm in bed before it's even dark. And on the last night of the work week when I can actually stay up late, I'm just too physically exhausted to do ANYTHING. Weekends are time to get all the things done that folks with normal schedules do after work. And again, after doing yard work or house maintenance for most of the day, I'm too beat to drive to a remote site. I'd probably fall asleep on the road and kill myself or others. Back-yard it is. Astronomy requires the oddest of hours, and it's just not logistically possible for me to do with any kind of semi-regularity. So, I build telescopes when I do have an indoor hour free, and I'll return to regular observing when and if I retire. I have a lot of eggs in my retirement basket, but it can't be helped. YMMV.
It also occurs to me that with all the commercial offerings these days, as well as the resources that the Internet makes possible, the novice of today has it better than at any other time since Rusell W. Porter first took up a piece of glass and started it all. I just don't buy the contention that if we don't streamline the hobby further, new people won't stick with it.
Finally got some pockets of good seeing last night. Makes me want to toss all my old data in the trash. Image: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=4565 Enjoy! -David
awesome! Thanks for sharing this! On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:32 PM, David Rankin <David@rankinstudio.com>wrote:
Finally got some pockets of good seeing last night. Makes me want to toss all my old data in the trash.
Enjoy!
-David
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Thanks Chrismo On 8/10/2011 11:36 AM, Chrismo wrote:
awesome! Thanks for sharing this!
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:32 PM, David Rankin<David@rankinstudio.com>wrote:
Finally got some pockets of good seeing last night. Makes me want to toss all my old data in the trash.
Enjoy!
-David
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MUCH better. Well-done! I was noticing how steady the atmosphere looked before dawn this morning, even from the middle of the valley. On 8/10/11, David Rankin <David@rankinstudio.com> wrote:
Finally got some pockets of good seeing last night. Makes me want to toss all my old data in the trash.
Thanks Chuck, I've added a few more things. An image that shows the individual color channel captures, and a 3 frame animation. It was good down here around 4:30 Utah time, but started to go down hill after that. Cheers, David On 8/10/2011 1:50 PM, Chuck Hards wrote:
MUCH better. Well-done!
I was noticing how steady the atmosphere looked before dawn this morning, even from the middle of the valley.
On 8/10/11, David Rankin<David@rankinstudio.com> wrote:
Finally got some pockets of good seeing last night. Makes me want to toss all my old data in the trash.
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I contacted the VA hospital Monday, and they finally got back to me. Funeral arrangements are being made by the Walker mortuary in Payson. http://www.walkerfamilymortuary.com/ They do not have information online yet, but will be adding it as soon as plans are firmed up. Right now, they are looking at a graveside service Monday morning at the Salem cemetery. Jo
http://www.walkerfamilymortuary.com/obituaries.aspx?turl=http://hosting-2444... Memorial services will be Monday, August 15, 2011, 1:00 p.m. at the Walker Mortuary, 587 South 100 West, Payson, where friends may call 1 hour prior to services. Burial will be in the Salem, Utah Cemetery with Military Rites accorded by the American Legion, Dist. #4.
Dwight served in Iraq?
http://www.walkerfamilymortuary.com/obituaries.aspx?turl=http://hosting-2444...
Memorial services will be Monday, August 15, 2011, 1:00 p.m. at the Walker Mortuary, 587 South 100 West, Payson, where friends may call 1 hour prior to services.
Burial will be in the Salem, Utah Cemetery with Military Rites accorded by the American Legion, Dist. #4.
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Nice colorful gas ball, David. I found that I had to limit the number of frames I shot per image because Jove rotates so fast. Best wishes, Joe ________________________________ From: David Rankin <David@rankinstudio.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] My best planetary image yet. Jupiter 8.10.11 Thanks Chuck, I've added a few more things. An image that shows the individual color channel captures, and a 3 frame animation. It was good down here around 4:30 Utah time, but started to go down hill after that. Cheers, David On 8/10/2011 1:50 PM, Chuck Hards wrote:
MUCH better. Well-done!
I was noticing how steady the atmosphere looked before dawn this morning, even from the middle of the valley.
On 8/10/11, David Rankin<David@rankinstudio.com> wrote:
Finally got some pockets of good seeing last night. Makes me want to toss all my old data in the trash.
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Very nice image. Excellent detail. Are you going to try for a shot with the Great Red Spot? patrick On 10 Aug 2011, at 12:32, David Rankin wrote:
Finally got some pockets of good seeing last night. Makes me want to toss all my old data in the trash.
Image: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=4565
Enjoy!
-David
Thanks Patrick Yeah, I want to but I keep getting the other side by the time the seeing gets decent. I dont really plan the side I am shooting, just going for whatever I can get. On 8/10/2011 11:11 PM, Patrick Wiggins wrote:
Very nice image. Excellent detail.
Are you going to try for a shot with the Great Red Spot?
patrick
On 10 Aug 2011, at 12:32, David Rankin wrote:
Finally got some pockets of good seeing last night. Makes me want to toss all my old data in the trash.
Image: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=4565
Enjoy!
-David
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Oh, Chuck. From reading your posts I never realized that you’re quite the dreamer. Retirement? What’s that? How will it happen? On what? Face it, we’ll work until they can’t stand to look at us because we drool to much…or we’re dropping dead just for the fun of it. Dave On Aug 10, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Chuck Hards wrote:
On 8/10/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The main point I agree with is that it seems people have forgotten how easy a dob is to set up. Truss designs make it a little harder, but it is possible to make a telescope that is ready for observing in minutes. People seem intimidated by learning the sky well enough for non goto use.
Spot-on, Erik. It's not a matter of free time for most people, but mental laziness. Nobody has a stop-watch going during set up.
I don't even have a problem with taking the extra time to set up my equatorial. The main reason I'm not more active is that I have to get up at 4:30 AM to go to work, then work 10-hour days. I sometimes don't get back home for over 12 hours. In summer, I'm in bed before it's even dark. And on the last night of the work week when I can actually stay up late, I'm just too physically exhausted to do ANYTHING. Weekends are time to get all the things done that folks with normal schedules do after work. And again, after doing yard work or house maintenance for most of the day, I'm too beat to drive to a remote site. I'd probably fall asleep on the road and kill myself or others. Back-yard it is.
Astronomy requires the oddest of hours, and it's just not logistically possible for me to do with any kind of semi-regularity. So, I build telescopes when I do have an indoor hour free, and I'll return to regular observing when and if I retire. I have a lot of eggs in my retirement basket, but it can't be helped. YMMV.
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Sorry, that should have read “drool too much”. On Aug 10, 2011, at 3:36 PM, Dave Gary wrote:
Oh, Chuck. From reading your posts I never realized that you’re quite the dreamer. Retirement? What’s that? How will it happen? On what? Face it, we’ll work until they can’t stand to look at us because we drool to much…or we’re dropping dead just for the fun of it.
Dave
On Aug 10, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Chuck Hards wrote:
On 8/10/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The main point I agree with is that it seems people have forgotten how easy a dob is to set up. Truss designs make it a little harder, but it is possible to make a telescope that is ready for observing in minutes. People seem intimidated by learning the sky well enough for non goto use.
Spot-on, Erik. It's not a matter of free time for most people, but mental laziness. Nobody has a stop-watch going during set up.
I don't even have a problem with taking the extra time to set up my equatorial. The main reason I'm not more active is that I have to get up at 4:30 AM to go to work, then work 10-hour days. I sometimes don't get back home for over 12 hours. In summer, I'm in bed before it's even dark. And on the last night of the work week when I can actually stay up late, I'm just too physically exhausted to do ANYTHING. Weekends are time to get all the things done that folks with normal schedules do after work. And again, after doing yard work or house maintenance for most of the day, I'm too beat to drive to a remote site. I'd probably fall asleep on the road and kill myself or others. Back-yard it is.
Astronomy requires the oddest of hours, and it's just not logistically possible for me to do with any kind of semi-regularity. So, I build telescopes when I do have an indoor hour free, and I'll return to regular observing when and if I retire. I have a lot of eggs in my retirement basket, but it can't be helped. YMMV.
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On 8/10/11, Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> wrote:
Oh, Chuck. From reading your posts I never realized that you’re quite the dreamer. Retirement? What’s that? How will it happen? On what? Face it, we’ll work until they can’t stand to look at us because we drool to much…or we’re dropping dead just for the fun of it.
Dave, you speak much wisdom. Actually, I had a good chance at retiring sometime between age 60 and 65, until my divorce. Now, it really is just a dream. Hell, just having a normal, 8 to 5 job is a dream. I'm paying the ex a monthly "spousal support" that was ordered by the judge in lieu of breaking-up my 401(k) (a legal and accounting nightmare), which has taken a nosedive in the last few days. If the judgement were made based on today's numbers, she'd be writing me a check every month. These days, I'm happy if there's a few hundred calories on my dinner plate. Retirement is as much fiction as The Lord of the Fetching Rings. No "coming into inherited money" for this working slob, descending as I do from a long, long line of white trash. Hang in there, brother! With any luck, the revolution will come in our lifetimes, and we can carry torches and shotguns to the rich houses in our own hands. C.
participants (9)
-
Canopus56 -
Chrismo -
Chuck Hards -
Dave Gary -
David Rankin -
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
Joe Bauman -
Josephine Grahn -
Patrick Wiggins