Kevin, Well stated. I have used my z-bolt for many years and I have never had a time when anyone in the group had trouble seeing it. In fact, just the opposite is true. I nearly always get comments about how easy it is to see. I think we should all try to abide by the spirit of the law. After all, we are supposed to be the responsible members of the astronomy community. We should be setting the proper example, not showing people how to get away with something that is clearly counter to the intent of the law. I enjoy my pointer and want to be able to continue using it. If we are all spreading the word to be cautious and responsible with our lasers, perhaps we will get to keep them in the future. I personally don't mind paying a little more for an extremely high quality product from a law abiding company, like z-bolt. Remember... laser light pollution is as valid as any other variety. I don't want to see a laser streak, from someone in Ogden with a 100mw laser, ruining images taken in my back yard in Tremonton. Thanks for reminding us about our responsibilities. Cheers, Tyler _____________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+tylerallred=earthlink.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+tylerallred=earthlink.net@mailman.xmission.co m] On Behalf Of Kevin Poe Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:37 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Fw: New from JasperLaser.com: 50mw and 100mwgreen lasers! Please don't purchase Jasper's 50MW or 100MW lasers. I don't want to sound like a sanctimonious jerk, and I fully realize how telling people how to spend their hard earned money is the height of arrogance -- especially when it comes to a beloved hobby. However, I do have strong opinions about green lasers as they are not only important to my hobby, but also my career -- and not a day (or night) goes by that I don't celebrate how lucky I am to be able to claim astronomy as both. So if you can stomach a little rant, please hear me out. While Jasper's 5MW curve pointer appears to be a great product perhaps as good as www.z-bolt.com lasers, I would suggest that SLAS members, and all amateur astronomers for that matter please boycott these these 50MW and 100WM "modules" and caution others to do the same. Apparently Jasper has found a loophole or at best a legal work around. Selling anything more powerful than 5MW regardless of whether it comes in 1 or 2 pieces is in violation of "the spirit and intent" of the law. I mean come on, if you count each battery that powers the illegal big 500MW lasers from unscrupulous Chinese websites it could be argued that they are 3 different parts. 1 illegally bright laser and 2 batteries sold separately. Ugh. Isn't this is a little bit like saying guns don't kill people. Bullets fired from guns, by people, kill people? While being able to ignite matches, pop balloons, and burn dark colored paper sounds impressive, it has nothing to do with astronomy and sounds a lot more like pyromania. We never use our telrads on full blast so why would we need anything more than 5MW for a telescope guider? I've heard it argued that at high altitudes and low humidity 5MW isn't enough but they work fine at Bryce and unless your planning to teach constellations to mountaineering expeditions, most won't find themselves being much higher or drier. Keep in mind that the 5MW restriction law has many "intents" the most significant of them surrounding homeland security and distracting or blinding pilots. One downed airliner and we are back to big flashlights. UNLESS we show the FDC, FCC, TSA, etc. that we are capable of policing ourselves they won't hesitate to punish all of us non-offenders in the very first attempt to deter the potentially guilty. I'm motivated by the fact that for most people their first exposure to green lasers will be at a star party and that the most common question will be "Hey, where can I get one of those?" I always suggest www.z-bolt.com as they refuse to sell lasers brighter than 5MW and I always give the law abiding "these are not toys, nor a constitutional right, but a precarious privilege earned and maintained by united responsible behavior." At Bryce we do nearly 100 constellation tours a year and though our combined experience and effort certainly hasn't unveiled all the answers, I can assure you that laser strength has never been a determining factor in whether a constellation tour is well received or not. We've found that knowing how to star-hop, well told star stories, and some meaningful (matters to average lives of average people) astronomy and pretty quickly the laser becomes just another tool and not the show itself. To that end, I offer my Constellation Contemplation powerpoint I've posted on slideshare as some "draft" curriculum for a 3-year "Sky Rangers" training project. Thanks to a NASA funded grant that Astronomical Society Pacific and I successful obtained we will be holding on-line and hands-on workshops (with live audiences at Bryce) in an effort to increase astronomy literacy and the corresponding interpretive techniques throughout the NPS. Download it and see if it offeris any ideas you can use. Though the narration and animations are mine they reflect the combined experience of all of Bryce Canyon's Dark Rangers. I'll take responsibility for mistakes or areas in need of improvement. So, any and all comments would be most welcome -- especially the critical ones as they tend to facilitate the most improvement. http://www.slideshare.net/iamthedarkranger In the meantime please give due consideration to my plea to not subsidize the illegal and/or even the quasi-legal laser industry. On the other hand if you must have one perhaps I could persuade you to not use one at public star parties? Again just another request. If nothing else, at least now I hope you'll better appreciate why I must prevent their use at Bryce Canyon? Thanks. On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Richard Tenney <retenney@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- On Tue, 2/17/09, JasperLaser.com <no-reply@jasperlaser.com> wrote: From: JasperLaser.com <no-reply@jasperlaser.com> Subject: New from JasperLaser.com: 50mw and 100mw green lasers! To: "Richard Tenney" <retenney@yahoo.com> Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 1:03 PM

New from JasperLaser.com: 50mw and 100mw Green Lasers

Think your 5mw Jasper Laser is cool? Your jaw will drop when you experience our 50mw and 100mw lasers. Here's why:

+ Same quality, more power! Our lasers feature the best lenses and are 100% infrared filtered, just like their 5mw counterparts.

+ 100% legal in the U.S.! Sold as modules, these lasers fall outside of restrictions on laser pointers.

+ Convert to a pointer in seconds! Use our $9 Jasper Laser Pointer Kit to convert to your own homemade pointer.

+ Modules ship March 9th.

Jasper 100mw Laser Module: $350 $315 with pre-order discount code PRE

Jasper 50mw Laser Module: $230 $190 with pre-oder discount code PRE

Jasper Laser Pointer Kit $9

Best Regards,

The JasperLaser.com Team JasperLaser.com, 9811 W Charleston Blvd, Suite 2-786, Las Vegas, NV 89117 | main line: 877-388-7362 | visit us online at: www.JasperLaser.com <http://www.jasperlaser.com/>

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

-- By the 3rd millennium, the reckless use of light nearly vanquished the night. A formidable few rushed to defend the last sanctuaries of natural darkness.

From the national parks, armed with science, mythology and a love for all things nocturnal came warrior poets who pushed back against the light. They were called Dark Rangers, and no one knew their names. . .

Kevin Poe 435-590-9498 (c) _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

Kim, have you tried lithium batteries? They do a much better job in the cold, and last longer (though more expensive than alkaline). While I'm guilty of passing this ad along, I agree with Kevin that public star parties don't need this kind of wattage. Besides, y'all just want to use the module for holography, right??! ;) --- On Wed, 2/18/09, Kim <kimharch@cut.net> wrote:

From: Kim <kimharch@cut.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Fw: New from JasperLaser.com: 50mw and 100mwgreen lasers! To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 8:44 AM Kevin, thanks for your comments. I've been wondering why the hype for brighter lasers, other than the mine-is-bigger-than-yours factor. I assumed that if they were being sold they were legal. Glad you clarified that for me.

I've always found my 5mw model to be bright enough, unless I leave it out when it's very cold - then I may have to warm it up inside my coat for a moment before I use it. Anyone else have this problem, or is it just my model?

Kim

-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Poe Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:37 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Fw: New from JasperLaser.com: 50mw and 100mwgreen lasers!

Kevin wrote:

Please don't purchase Jasper's 50MW or 100MW lasers...

No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1958 - Release Date: 2/18/2009 8:57 AM

_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

Kevin, there are legitimate reasons for using a laser brighter than the typical 5mW output. None of them apply to someone lucky enough to have dark skies every night. Perhaps a park rule could be enforced for your situation. It's far removed from my astronomical world. I started with a 5mW laser, which was fairly visible from a dark site. From the suburbs, where most of the star parties I've ever been to have been held, 5mW is not bright enough. Only those fairly close to the beam axis can clearly see it. From a Harmons parking lot, for example, forget it on some nights. Yes, sometimes they are sufficiently visible, but not always. A lot of dust or water vapor in the air contributes to beam visibility. A 20mW laser is much better from the suburbs, but not for large groups. On some nights when the air is particularly transparent, such as after a frontal passage, even the 20mW laser visibilty suffers. The 100mW laser is easily visible to all star-party attendees from even heavily light-polluted, urban locations. Places where there aren't even enough visible 4th magnitude stars to verbally describe where the telescope is pointing. Attendees with poor vision, even those with "low" vision have been able to see the 100mw beam with ease. Astro-imagers are far more likely to have their images ruined by night-flying aircraft or satellites, than a laser pointer. Visual observers are typically not affected, based on my own, admittedly non-scientific visibility tests held at SPOC two years ago with a 20mW laser pointer. I believe the planetarium director owns a 100mW laser, purchased expressly for use at public star parties. A former SLAS president owns a 50mW laser, again purchased solely for it's excellent visiblity. Both have stated that 5mW lasers had very limited use as educational pointers. Neither of these people found themselves at truly dark sites for the majority of the star-parties they lectured or assisted at. A 5mW laser is just as capable of blinding the operator of a ground vehicle or aircraft if misused, as a higher output device. Perhaps pilots could be encouraged to wear laser safety glasses (less than $50 ea., typically) for landing, if they are concerned. I'm sorry, but the "keep the power down" stance does come off as sanctimonious to me, when applied this broadly. I certainly won't use one within the confines of Bryce Canyon, however, or any other sufficiently dark site. A reminder that in Utah <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah> it is a class C misdemeanor <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misdemeanor> to point a laser pointer at a law enforcement officer<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_officer>and is an infraction <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infraction> to point a laser pointer at a moving vehicle.[33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_pointer#cite_note-32> Kim, the laser will dim when either the temperature gets too cold or the battery output drops below a certain level. It happens to mine, too.

Hi Jim, you always are a voice of reason. I think the kernal of Kevin's post was that super-bright lasers are overkill at dark sites, especially a remote site where some people have specifically travelled a long distance just for dark night skies and fabulous natural daytime scenery. In those places, a low-powered laser should be sufficient. Laser users should always be mindful and respectful of the activities of others in their vicinity. Not many people know that many diode lasers in the range from 5mW up to almost 30mW are actually the exact same diode as the 5mW or less lasers. There is inconsistency in manufacture and some 5mW units have an output closer to 20 or 30mW. But legally, it's still a 5mW laser. An importer has not broken any laws by selling these units- they leave the factory as 5mW lasers. We need to remember that lasers do not of themselves cause problems. Like firearms, it's the person wielding it that commits the crime. Some murders are committed with baseball bats, but nobody wants to legislate Little League out of existence. Like anything, education is the key to proper use. I believe one person on this list used their super-bright laser pointer at a native American ceremony in Southern Utah, when the local shaman's laser's batteries died just before the show. A non-astronomical use that sure sounds legitimate to me. And the next time I go hiking in a wilderness area or other remote location, I will take the brightest laser I own, as an emergency signaling device. 100mW is enough to be seen miles away, in sunlight. As to the issue of a laser pointer possibly ruining an exposure during imaging (really a time waster these days since no film is ruined), let's do some experiements. I'll volunteer a couple of lasers if someone else wants to do the test imaging. Let's get some real data. On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 5:46 AM, Jim Gibson <jimgibson00@yahoo.com> wrote:

Chuck, A good common since answer. I hope green laser pointers don't become an off topic on this list. I feel that there are places when green laser pointers are appropriate and a legitimate teaching aid. It wouldn't hurt from time to time for the benefit of newer folks to cover green laser etiquette. I am probably not the one to do that because I can't remember everything, but we have had good discussions on this list when the use of green laser pointers are not appropriate. Generally speaking there should be no problem using a green laser pointer in your backyard while showing neighbors astronomical items of interest. However, in a public place where tourists are milling around it may not be appropriate. It MAY be appropriate at an SLAS star party, but one should ask the group before using a green laser pointer because others may be imaging or have some other objection.

A few times a year I take my kids and their kids to Rush Valley for a little sundown pizza and to do a little family star party after dark. Invariably someone will ask me where or what is my telescope pointing at. In such circumstances a green laser pointer adds to the joy and learning of observing the night sky. Kids don't always see asterisms that have become obvious to us; a good situation for a laser pointer, but one must consider the circumstances and who else is around.

Jim

--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Fw: New from JasperLaser.com: 50mw and 100mwgreen lasers! To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 8:41 PM

Kevin, there are legitimate reasons for using a laser brighter than the typical 5mW output. None of them apply to someone lucky enough to have dark skies every night. Perhaps a park rule could be enforced for your situation. It's far removed from my astronomical world.

I started with a 5mW laser, which was fairly visible from a dark site. From the suburbs, where most of the star parties I've ever been to have been held, 5mW is not bright enough. Only those fairly close to the beam axis can clearly see it. From a Harmons parking lot, for example, forget it on some nights. Yes, sometimes they are sufficiently visible, but not always. A lot of dust or water vapor in the air contributes to beam visibility.

A 20mW laser is much better from the suburbs, but not for large groups. On some nights when the air is particularly transparent, such as after a frontal passage, even the 20mW laser visibilty suffers.

The 100mW laser is easily visible to all star-party attendees from even heavily light-polluted, urban locations. Places where there aren't even enough visible 4th magnitude stars to verbally describe where the telescope is pointing. Attendees with poor vision, even those with "low" vision have been able to see the 100mw beam with ease.

Astro-imagers are far more likely to have their images ruined by night-flying aircraft or satellites, than a laser pointer. Visual observers are typically not affected, based on my own, admittedly non-scientific visibility tests held at SPOC two years ago with a 20mW laser pointer.

I believe the planetarium director owns a 100mW laser, purchased expressly for use at public star parties. A former SLAS president owns a 50mW laser, again purchased solely for it's excellent visiblity. Both have stated that 5mW lasers had very limited use as educational pointers. Neither of these people found themselves at truly dark sites for the majority of the star-parties they lectured or assisted at.

A 5mW laser is just as capable of blinding the operator of a ground vehicle or aircraft if misused, as a higher output device. Perhaps pilots could be encouraged to wear laser safety glasses (less than $50 ea., typically) for landing, if they are concerned. I'm sorry, but the "keep the power down" stance does come off as sanctimonious to me, when applied this broadly. I certainly won't use one within the confines of Bryce Canyon, however, or any other sufficiently dark site.

A reminder that in Utah <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah> it is a class C misdemeanor <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misdemeanor> to point a laser pointer at a law enforcement officer<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_officer>and is an infraction <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infraction> to point a laser pointer at a moving vehicle.[33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_pointer#cite_note-32>

Kim, the laser will dim when either the temperature gets too cold or the battery output drops below a certain level. It happens to mine, too. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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The Jasper lasers, with the discount, are $15 more than the ones Seth and I bought, with a discount code from Destructivegear.com, IIRC. On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Richard Tenney <retenney@yahoo.com> wrote:

Chuck, how do these "modules" compare price-wise with what you guys paid for your pointers?