Re: [Utah-astronomy] Overwhelmed
Troy wrote -
But, I am serious about the SPOC and SLAS stuff. I don't feel welcome. I know SPOC is open to the public, but the times I've gone I didn't feel like I was part of the group.
Troy, Just to confirm your experience, IMHO it is a problem that IMHO the club should work on. This also was my experience when first showing up to SLAS urban and SPOC star parties - club newbies will set up scopes and club members will not engage them. Although due to other personal commitments during 2009, I only went to one urban star party, in 2008 I went to several, specifically leaving my scope at home to do "newbie rounds" at star parties - that is figuring out who was new, saying hello, seeing if they needed help getting their scope going. At the one 2009 party that I went to - I saw exactly the same thing happened. There was an older couple who had setup an old Tasco manual EQ backwards and a lot of club members around them just staring at them. I found our president - Dave Bernson - who pointing a couple of members in the newbie's direction. After a few minutes several people were helping them out. IMHO, the club does need to do a better job on "newbie patrol" at club star parties and your point is well taken. Hopefully, your post here will encourage the club to address the matter. This public venue may not be the best place to air the matter. I suggest you call the SLAS club president and talk with him by phone. As to what you can do to make your social experience better, I found it useful when starting out to go to some of the club "advanced training" sessions at Denny's either after the star party or after the club's monthly meetings. Although like many clubs, these after star party sessions involve alot of testosterone laden "boys and their toys" new gear talk, its a good group that is easy to get to know. Taking telescope training at SPOC next spring is another good way to integrate socially into the club. Longer term social bonds typically grow from your "training buddies" during those sessions. This occurs in part because there is a learning curve in this hobby and your "training buddy" tends to be on the same point on the curve and is interested in the same things. Many of the club members have an ongoing astronomy relationship that covers 15 to 25 years. The effectiveness of this group of long-term friends is evidenced by all the club scopes out at SPOC. If you look at them closely, it's pretty amazing that it was all done with volunteer labor and shoestring donations. That can be a bit daunting when you are first entering the group, but is doable and little different from entering, for example, a new workplace. My closing question for you is what could the club do that would make new members' experience better? What you would like to have seen beyond the current practice of the club's roll call and introduction for new members at the monthly meetings? As to the content of this listserv and the SLAS, they are both "big tent" places catering to all experience levels. The only requirements are that 1) you are well-meaning, and 2) you have an interest in amateur astronomy. The etymology of the word "amateur" is from the French and Latin, from French and Latin: "am tor", lover, and from "am re", to love. If you love looking up, you are an amateur - but you already knew that - and you are welcome here. Clear Skies - Kurt P.S. - Utah Astro is not a SLAS newsgroup, although many SLAS members communicate here.
Let me first say that I understand this isn't only a SLAS list. So, my answers will be specific to all clubs and not just SLAS. If a new person shows up at a meeting, then I think all boardmembers/leaders should introduce themselves to that new person. Or, tell all the new people to wait after the meeting so the boardmembers could meet them. Ask them why they are there. Find out things about them. Make that new person feel welcome. I have been to a few SLAS meetings and I was only talked to once. Also, at star parties, make new people feel welcome. I stood around once at SPOC for an hour and was spoken to by one person. I actually left SPOC and went out to Skull valley to observe. Then, I came back to SPOC later around midnight and looked through one of the big scopes. I people running the scope looked at me like I was butting in on their equipment. I left feeling even more unwelcome. I haven't been back to SPOC since. I know that I have discussed some SLAS and SPOC specific things here. I think all groups could benefit from these comments. Be more open. These clubs aren't elitest clubs. Make people feel welcome; make people feel like they are wanted. Reach out to the new member and make sure they know that they are a part of the group. As for me, honestly, I don't know if I will go back to a club. I have gone to clubs for the last 13 years, and the only one I felt welcome in was back in San Angelo, Texas. Of course, there was only 20 members so a new face really stood out. :D ++++++++++++++++++ Troy Davidson On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Canopus56 <canopus56@yahoo.com> wrote:
Troy wrote -
But, I am serious about the SPOC and SLAS stuff. I don't feel welcome. I know SPOC is open to the public, but the times I've gone I didn't feel like I was part of the group.
Troy,
Just to confirm your experience, IMHO it is a problem that IMHO the club should work on. This also was my experience when first showing up to SLAS urban and SPOC star parties - club newbies will set up scopes and club members will not engage them. Although due to other personal commitments during 2009, I only went to one urban star party, in 2008 I went to several, specifically leaving my scope at home to do "newbie rounds" at star parties - that is figuring out who was new, saying hello, seeing if they needed help getting their scope going. At the one 2009 party that I went to - I saw exactly the same thing happened. There was an older couple who had setup an old Tasco manual EQ backwards and a lot of club members around them just staring at them. I found our president - Dave Bernson - who pointing a couple of members in the newbie's direction. After a few minutes several people were helping them out.
IMHO, the club does need to do a better job on "newbie patrol" at club star parties and your point is well taken. Hopefully, your post here will encourage the club to address the matter.
This public venue may not be the best place to air the matter. I suggest you call the SLAS club president and talk with him by phone.
As to what you can do to make your social experience better, I found it useful when starting out to go to some of the club "advanced training" sessions at Denny's either after the star party or after the club's monthly meetings. Although like many clubs, these after star party sessions involve alot of testosterone laden "boys and their toys" new gear talk, its a good group that is easy to get to know. Taking telescope training at SPOC next spring is another good way to integrate socially into the club. Longer term social bonds typically grow from your "training buddies" during those sessions. This occurs in part because there is a learning curve in this hobby and your "training buddy" tends to be on the same point on the curve and is interested in the same things.
Many of the club members have an ongoing astronomy relationship that covers 15 to 25 years. The effectiveness of this group of long-term friends is evidenced by all the club scopes out at SPOC. If you look at them closely, it's pretty amazing that it was all done with volunteer labor and shoestring donations. That can be a bit daunting when you are first entering the group, but is doable and little different from entering, for example, a new workplace.
My closing question for you is what could the club do that would make new members' experience better? What you would like to have seen beyond the current practice of the club's roll call and introduction for new members at the monthly meetings?
As to the content of this listserv and the SLAS, they are both "big tent" places catering to all experience levels. The only requirements are that 1) you are well-meaning, and 2) you have an interest in amateur astronomy.
The etymology of the word "amateur" is from the French and Latin, from French and Latin: "am tor", lover, and from "am re", to love. If you love looking up, you are an amateur - but you already knew that - and you are welcome here.
Clear Skies - Kurt
P.S. - Utah Astro is not a SLAS newsgroup, although many SLAS members communicate here.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Troy,
You should bear in mind we are all somewhat socially dysfunctional, we do stare into space after all. Our SPOC events are generally for the public, new members and curious public are hard to sort out. At meetings they do ask for new people to identify themselves. I would suggest that the private star parties are venues that are best suited for getting aquatinted with folks and making friends. SLAS is very much an open organization and welcomes all. Erik Let me first say that I understand this isn't only a SLAS list. So,
my answers will be specific to all clubs and not just SLAS.
If a new person shows up at a meeting, then I think all boardmembers/leaders should introduce themselves to that new person. Or, tell all the new people to wait after the meeting so the boardmembers could meet them. Ask them why they are there. Find out things about them. Make that new person feel welcome. I have been to a few SLAS meetings and I was only talked to once.
Also, at star parties, make new people feel welcome. I stood around once at SPOC for an hour and was spoken to by one person. I actually left SPOC and went out to Skull valley to observe. Then, I came back to SPOC later around midnight and looked through one of the big scopes. I people running the scope looked at me like I was butting in on their equipment. I left feeling even more unwelcome. I haven't been back to SPOC since.
I know that I have discussed some SLAS and SPOC specific things here. I think all groups could benefit from these comments. Be more open. These clubs aren't elitest clubs. Make people feel welcome; make people feel like they are wanted. Reach out to the new member and make sure they know that they are a part of the group.
As for me, honestly, I don't know if I will go back to a club. I have gone to clubs for the last 13 years, and the only one I felt welcome in was back in San Angelo, Texas. Of course, there was only 20 members so a new face really stood out. :D
++++++++++++++++++ Troy Davidson
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Canopus56 <canopus56@yahoo.com> wrote:
Troy wrote -
But, I am serious about the SPOC and SLAS stuff. I don't feel welcome. I know SPOC is open to the public, but the times I've gone I didn't feel like I was part of the group.
Troy,
Just to confirm your experience, IMHO it is a problem that IMHO the club should work on. This also was my experience when first showing up to SLAS urban and SPOC star parties - club newbies will set up scopes and club members will not engage them. Although due to other personal commitments during 2009, I only went to one urban star party, in 2008 I went to several, specifically leaving my scope at home to do "newbie rounds" at star parties - that is figuring out who was new, saying hello, seeing if they needed help getting their scope going. At the one 2009 party that I went to - I saw exactly the same thing happened. There was an older couple who had setup an old Tasco manual EQ backwards and a lot of club members around them just staring at them. I found our president - Dave Bernson - who pointing a couple of members in the newbie's direction. After a few minutes several people were helping them out.
IMHO, the club does need to do a better job on "newbie patrol" at club star parties and your point is well taken. Hopefully, your post here will encourage the club to address the matter.
This public venue may not be the best place to air the matter. I suggest you call the SLAS club president and talk with him by phone.
As to what you can do to make your social experience better, I found it useful when starting out to go to some of the club "advanced training" sessions at Denny's either after the star party or after the club's monthly meetings. Although like many clubs, these after star party sessions involve alot of testosterone laden "boys and their toys" new gear talk, its a good group that is easy to get to know. Taking telescope training at SPOC next spring is another good way to integrate socially into the club. Longer term social bonds typically grow from your "training buddies" during those sessions. This occurs in part because there is a learning curve in this hobby and your "training buddy" tends to be on the same point on the curve and is interested in the same things.
Many of the club members have an ongoing astronomy relationship that covers 15 to 25 years. The effectiveness of this group of long-term friends is evidenced by all the club scopes out at SPOC. If you look at them closely, it's pretty amazing that it was all done with volunteer labor and shoestring donations. That can be a bit daunting when you are first entering the group, but is doable and little different from entering, for example, a new workplace.
My closing question for you is what could the club do that would make new members' experience better? What you would like to have seen beyond the current practice of the club's roll call and introduction for new members at the monthly meetings?
As to the content of this listserv and the SLAS, they are both "big tent" places catering to all experience levels. The only requirements are that 1) you are well-meaning, and 2) you have an interest in amateur astronomy.
The etymology of the word "amateur" is from the French and Latin, from French and Latin: "am tor", lover, and from "am re", to love. If you love looking up, you are an amateur - but you already knew that - and you are welcome here.
Clear Skies - Kurt
P.S. - Utah Astro is not a SLAS newsgroup, although many SLAS members communicate here.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
And another way to get to know folks (and to get to be known) is to come to the after-meeting and after-star party "Advanced Training Sessions" (aka: Dinner and social hour). patrick On 19 Dec 2009, at 10:06, erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net wrote:
I would suggest that the private star parties are venues that are best suited for getting aquatinted with folks and making friends. SLAS is very much an open organization and welcomes all.
Erik
Troy, I have held off responding to this blog but have been very interested in this. I have been personally feeling guilt about the feelings that you have about the SPOC events. Your feeling and perceptions of acceptance are real and shouldn't be ignored by the rest of us. I recognize that if you feel this way and I was at many if not most of the star parties, I without knowing, contributed to your feeling of unacceptance. For this I am truely sorry. When we are at SPOC or many other star parties, it is easy for us to focus our attention on getting our telescopes aligned and ready to show the public our favorite targets. When we do this we are probably oblivious to those other attendees that, like you, are new and may be desiring interation with the other members. I assure you, I for one find great satisfaction in helping new members and working with them to allow them to experience the level of satisfaction that I have attained by being affiliated with SLAS. As a 2010 SLAS board member, I will make a special effort to see that our board take action to insure that an open and friendly atmosphere prevails at all SLAS sanctioned events. Troy, what I ask from you is to give us another chance to redeem ourselves and help you feel comfortable at all our events. Your attendence at all these events is not just welcomed but is highly valued. Thank you for opening my eyes by being frank about your feelings. Rodger C. Fry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Troy Davidson" <clandaith@gmail.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:51 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Overwhelmed Let me first say that I understand this isn't only a SLAS list. So, my answers will be specific to all clubs and not just SLAS. If a new person shows up at a meeting, then I think all boardmembers/leaders should introduce themselves to that new person. Or, tell all the new people to wait after the meeting so the boardmembers could meet them. Ask them why they are there. Find out things about them. Make that new person feel welcome. I have been to a few SLAS meetings and I was only talked to once. Also, at star parties, make new people feel welcome. I stood around once at SPOC for an hour and was spoken to by one person. I actually left SPOC and went out to Skull valley to observe. Then, I came back to SPOC later around midnight and looked through one of the big scopes. I people running the scope looked at me like I was butting in on their equipment. I left feeling even more unwelcome. I haven't been back to SPOC since. I know that I have discussed some SLAS and SPOC specific things here. I think all groups could benefit from these comments. Be more open. These clubs aren't elitest clubs. Make people feel welcome; make people feel like they are wanted. Reach out to the new member and make sure they know that they are a part of the group. As for me, honestly, I don't know if I will go back to a club. I have gone to clubs for the last 13 years, and the only one I felt welcome in was back in San Angelo, Texas. Of course, there was only 20 members so a new face really stood out. :D ++++++++++++++++++ Troy Davidson On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Canopus56 <canopus56@yahoo.com> wrote:
Troy wrote -
But, I am serious about the SPOC and SLAS stuff. I don't feel welcome. I know SPOC is open to the public, but the times I've gone I didn't feel like I was part of the group.
Troy,
Just to confirm your experience, IMHO it is a problem that IMHO the club should work on. This also was my experience when first showing up to SLAS urban and SPOC star parties - club newbies will set up scopes and club members will not engage them. Although due to other personal commitments during 2009, I only went to one urban star party, in 2008 I went to several, specifically leaving my scope at home to do "newbie rounds" at star parties - that is figuring out who was new, saying hello, seeing if they needed help getting their scope going. At the one 2009 party that I went to - I saw exactly the same thing happened. There was an older couple who had setup an old Tasco manual EQ backwards and a lot of club members around them just staring at them. I found our president - Dave Bernson - who pointing a couple of members in the newbie's direction. After a few minutes several people were helping them out.
IMHO, the club does need to do a better job on "newbie patrol" at club star parties and your point is well taken. Hopefully, your post here will encourage the club to address the matter.
This public venue may not be the best place to air the matter. I suggest you call the SLAS club president and talk with him by phone.
As to what you can do to make your social experience better, I found it useful when starting out to go to some of the club "advanced training" sessions at Denny's either after the star party or after the club's monthly meetings. Although like many clubs, these after star party sessions involve alot of testosterone laden "boys and their toys" new gear talk, its a good group that is easy to get to know. Taking telescope training at SPOC next spring is another good way to integrate socially into the club. Longer term social bonds typically grow from your "training buddies" during those sessions. This occurs in part because there is a learning curve in this hobby and your "training buddy" tends to be on the same point on the curve and is interested in the same things.
Many of the club members have an ongoing astronomy relationship that covers 15 to 25 years. The effectiveness of this group of long-term friends is evidenced by all the club scopes out at SPOC. If you look at them closely, it's pretty amazing that it was all done with volunteer labor and shoestring donations. That can be a bit daunting when you are first entering the group, but is doable and little different from entering, for example, a new workplace.
My closing question for you is what could the club do that would make new members' experience better? What you would like to have seen beyond the current practice of the club's roll call and introduction for new members at the monthly meetings?
As to the content of this listserv and the SLAS, they are both "big tent" places catering to all experience levels. The only requirements are that 1) you are well-meaning, and 2) you have an interest in amateur astronomy.
The etymology of the word "amateur" is from the French and Latin, from French and Latin: "am tor", lover, and from "am re", to love. If you love looking up, you are an amateur - but you already knew that - and you are welcome here.
Clear Skies - Kurt
P.S. - Utah Astro is not a SLAS newsgroup, although many SLAS members communicate here.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Troy: Thank you for giving us some background on your astronomy interests. Thirteen years means that you are not a beginner. My own background is that I've done mostly armchair reading in the topic for several decades. I've been actively observing for 8 years and been a member of SLAS for about 5. Some of your impressions are valid and some of them are not. As far as math goes, I do not apologize. Astronomy is a science and science is done with math, statistics, strange units of measure and obscure nomenclatures. It all comes with the territory and you won't find a safe haven from it. The cosine function I used in my post to Kurt's message is 10th grade geometry and nothing to run away from. I also don't publicly criticize the board members. To do so would imply that I could do a better job. I don't think that I can do a better job, but your extensive club experience might make you a good candidate. Most officers run unopposed for their positions. You are welcome to try if you wish. As far as the local astronomy social scene goes, there is good news and bad news. The good news is there are other venues than SPOC. The Harmons star parties take place in a supermarket parking lot in the middle of the city. There is really only the moon, the planets and a few double stars to look at and this makes for a more relaxed atmosphere. The lighting lets you see the people, read their facial expressions and inspect their equipment. If you're busy with job and family responsibilities, you can still just drop by Harmons for an hour or two and look through other people's telescopes or chat with club members or members of the public. Harmon's is where I go for "social astronomy". Farther out at the semi dark sites like SPOC and Wheeler Farm, the social tone is different. It's too dark to read facial expressions so you might miss something when you talk to some one. Heck, you might not even see someone who is just standing around waiting for an invitation. Most people are in a public frame of mind but many are trying to find Messier objects or trying to deal with an equipment problem without turning on a bright flashlight. Also both these venues have had the lawn sprinklers come on just as it gets dark so people are edgy. I go to these places but I don't bring equipment. I approach people carefully and ask to look through their telescope. If they are in the mood I discuss astronomy with them. Going out to a true dark site alone or with a small group of friends may be about the best observing experience you can have. You can chase down the dimmer members of the NGC without distractions and I do this often when the weather is warm. I may go for a short "sneak and peak" with binoculars during the winter but I'm careful not to get myself stranded or lost. Be careful of whom you invite with you though, there are some big talkers around who really don't know how to act at a true dark site. I've had someone set up his scope and then refuse to look through it. He followed me around all night staying six inches from me clutching a big flashlight. He had never been to a truly dark site and was terrified of the dark! Sadly I now avoid the SLAS Private star parties. This is for social reasons. To be fair to SLAS almost all of the "characters" involved are no longer members. These are the astro-snobs who just show up at these events with a sense of entitlement and a low regard for new people. They will drink Red Bull all night and talk non-stop about Evolution, UFO's, JFK, and partisan politics. If one of these latches on to you, as a captive audience, there is no escape short of packing up your gear and driving away. They will also critique you, your equipment, and your observing techniques whether you ask them or not. I've been told that these venues are getting "much better", but I still can't bring myself to drive for eight hours and set up with the "cream of the crop". There are plenty of good dark sites between there and home. Daniel Turner
FYI, Troy has left the list. SLAS members wishing to contact him off list can find his email address on the SLAS roster. patrick
participants (6)
-
Canopus56 -
daniel turner -
erikhansen＠TheBlueZone.net -
Patrick Wiggins -
Rodger C. Fry -
Troy Davidson