Public Hearing at SLC Library on Wednesday Dec 7th. Scientific groups are disputing the BLM's environmental impact assessment, Obama is not a pro environmental president. http://act.credoaction.com/event/events/event.html?r=232168&event_id=2322&id...
I got the same message. Here is the data for the hearing for this Wednesday for the BLM in Salt Lake City. *What:* Alton Coal Mine Environmental Impacts Hearing *When:* Wednesday, December 7, 6PM *Where:* Salt Lake City Library, 210 East 400 South, Salt Lake City On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 9:40 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
Public Hearing at SLC Library on Wednesday Dec 7th.
Scientific groups are disputing the BLM's environmental impact assessment, Obama is not a pro environmental president.
http://act.credoaction.com/event/events/event.html?r=232168&event_id=2322&id...
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-- Jay Eads
On 12/3/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
Public Hearing at SLC Library on Wednesday Dec 7th.
Obama is not a pro environmental president.
Playing Devil's Advocate here, Erik, nothing personal. I think you know my political leanings. How is that statement immediately relevant?
The BLM is under Obama's rather direct control.
On 12/3/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
Public Hearing at SLC Library on Wednesday Dec 7th.
Obama is not a pro environmental president.
Playing Devil's Advocate here, Erik, nothing personal. I think you know my political leanings. How is that statement immediately relevant?
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On 12/3/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The BLM is under Obama's rather direct control.
My first thought is to allow this mine to happen. With a lifespan of 25 years, it's the blink-of-an-eye as far as geologic timespans are concerned, and barely a generation as far as human lifespans go. Im inclined to bow to the local inhabitant's wishes. After all, it's their land. IF the skies are returned to their current dark conditions after the project has run it's course, I see no permanent damage. Biolgical and eccological ramifications aside, evolution happens, whether humans have a hand in it, or not. Let the hate begin. It's a hard life for many species, humans among them.
Bryce Canyon National Park belongs to everybody, not just the locals, and they don't have the right to despoil our heritage. Also it isn't the locals' land -- if it were, there would be no EIS. The BLM is involved because that's federal Bureau of Land Management land, something that also belongs to all of us. There are few places left in the United States with such clear, dark skies, and that are easily accessible. The clarity of the night sky is important to many thousands of visitors, as we know from ALCON. One of the aspects of the national park experience is to enjoy nature, and to damage the views from the park diminishes that enjoyment. Some things are worth saving and clear dark skies are near the top. I've often thought how sad it is that few people have seen the Milky Way. Why throw away one of the best remaining areas where we can see it. You mentioned that it's only for 25 years -- first, I don't believe that because leases usually are extended and other developments can grow up around mines. But more to the point, how many of us are going to be actively star-gazing in 25 years? It's the blink of an eye to the universe but it's more time than many of us have left. Just my 2 cents. -- Joe ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update On 12/3/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The BLM is under Obama's rather direct control.
My first thought is to allow this mine to happen. With a lifespan of 25 years, it's the blink-of-an-eye as far as geologic timespans are concerned, and barely a generation as far as human lifespans go. Im inclined to bow to the local inhabitant's wishes. After all, it's their land. IF the skies are returned to their current dark conditions after the project has run it's course, I see no permanent damage. Biolgical and eccological ramifications aside, evolution happens, whether humans have a hand in it, or not. Let the hate begin. It's a hard life for many species, humans among them. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
On 12/3/11, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bryce Canyon National Park belongs to everybody, not just the locals, and they don't have the right to despoil our heritage. Also it isn't the locals' land -- if it were, there would be no EIS. The BLM is involved because that's federal Bureau of Land Management land, something that also belongs to all of us. There are few places left in the United States with such clear, dark skies, and that are easily accessible. The clarity of the night sky is important to many thousands of visitors, as we know from ALCON. One of the aspects of the national park experience is to enjoy nature, and to damage the views from the park diminishes that enjoyment. Some things are worth saving and clear dark skies are near the top. I've often thought how sad it is that few people have seen the Milky Way. Why throw away one of the best remaining areas where we can see it. You mentioned that it's only for 25 years -- first, I don't believe that because leases usually are extended and other developments can grow up around mines. But more to the point, how many of us are going to be actively star-gazing in 25 years? It's the blink of an eye to the universe but it's more time than many of us have left. Just my 2 cents. -- Joe
Joe, I'm actually on your side intellectually, but not invested as emotionally. I've seen my culture take the low road too many times to think that the average American will agree with us. To further the Devil's Advocate position: Virtually all national parks were created by legislation from Washington, despite a majority not in favor of them, by locals. The ultimate good comparison is the fate of the American Indian and their traditional lands. The land really did not belong to the European settlers and American founders, but it was taken anyway and high and mighty words were spoken to justify an unjust act. Your final statement gives away your true motivation. You don't want to lose a dark-sky resource in your own lifetime. "More to the point", it's not about losing a "heritage" or resource for the future now, is it? By your own admission. Remember that lights can always be turned out. As energy becomes more expensive, wasted energy will become more of an issue. I like to think that as a society, we can one day get a handle on effective vs. ineffective lighting and actually reverse some of the light pollution we now experience. Organizations such as IDA are eduacting industry and government on this issue. Progress seems slow, in terms of a human lifetime, but such lifetimes are insignificant when compared to the lifespan of a species as a whole. Either we get smart about the wasteful and uneccological aspects of poor lighting, or we die like lemmings. I'll accept nature's judgement. We kill ourselves off slowly or quickly, or get our collective sh*t together. Nature doesn't care, either way. We get the fate that we deserve. Fifty good men won't spare Sodom this time, I'm afraid. It's all, or none. As astronomers and nature lovers, we are in the minority in this culture, and probably will be for some time. I don't see any way, short of a revived Monkey Wrench Gang mentality, of keeping the ecconomic interests of society at bay in the short term, at least as far as resource development in the American west. Kudos to those of you in the front ranks, and with the energy and resources to fight the good fight.
"Im inclined to bow to the local inhabitant's wishes. After all, it's their land."
It is not their land, it belongs to all US Citizens. On 12/3/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
The BLM is under Obama's rather direct control.
My first thought is to allow this mine to happen. With a lifespan of 25 years, it's the blink-of-an-eye as far as geologic timespans are concerned, and barely a generation as far as human lifespans go.
Im inclined to bow to the local inhabitant's wishes. After all, it's their land. IF the skies are returned to their current dark conditions after the project has run it's course, I see no permanent damage.
Biolgical and eccological ramifications aside, evolution happens, whether humans have a hand in it, or not.
Let the hate begin. It's a hard life for many species, humans among them.
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No, it's not within the park but its light pollution would be visible from the park, and its air pollution would impact the park (which by definition has a Class I air quality designation, meaning no significant deterioration allowed). Almost all of the land involves federal ownership of the minerals. The tract would be about 3,478 acres, with 2,280 acres out-and-out federal BLM land and 1,296 acres in which the surface is privately owned and the subsurface mineral estate is owned by the federal government. (I don't know what the situation is for the other 2 acres.) The BLM land belongs to every American as much as the national park does. -- Joe ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update The mine is actually in the park? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
Then every American has a voice in its use. Put to a vote, which way do you think the decision would fall? Develop the resources, or keep the dark skies?
For special places like Bryce, preservation should have high priority. I vote to keep the dark skies and all the other advantages of the national park and to protect BLM land where its natural values are high. -- Joe ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update Then every American has a voice in its use. Put to a vote, which way do you think the decision would fall? Develop the resources, or keep the dark skies? _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
On 12/4/11, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
For special places like Bryce, preservation should have high priority. I vote to keep the dark skies and all the other advantages of the national park and to protect BLM land where its natural values are high. -- Joe
Dark skies are a priority for a minority of the American public. It doesn't affect the gelological formations of the park one bit. Is the general public wrong? From our point of view, yes, they are. From their point of view, we are nutjobs. The American system states that the majority shall have their way, for better or worse. Democracy is not based on the scientific method or ethical truth. If this mine goes ahead, it may have negative repercussions on wildlife. But wildlife exists in far more places than just in and around national parks, and those areas get no protection. No outrage for those areas/species/eccologies? There are many, many other areas that have skies as pristine as Bryce, they just don't have National Park status and don't have amazing geological formations. No restrooms, no amentities, no Interstate highway leading up to the gates. Could that have something to do with our Groupthink? There is a larger issue afoot here, and for anyone to take a stand on precedent or perceived ethical high ground is probably incomplete, at best. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but polarization is so easy. Resolution to the satisfaction of a majority can be very, very hard. The key to success is convincing the Amercian public of the superiority of your claim. In today's ecconomy, with a shrinking middle class and fewer educated, informed, and environmentally conscious people paying taxes every year, you have a tough row to hoe.
Actually, as one who looks diligently for dark-sky sites, I don't think there are many places with that kind of sky in Utah -- a state that probably has less gunky skies than most. Among Bryce's advantages are that it's high altitude and easily reached by thousands of visitors who don't have access to any dark sky. And as the Trib pointed out, the issue is far from one of urban-vs-rural people, with many in southern Utah opposed to the strip mine. But our opinions may not count one way or the other, as the agency is deciding based on criteria far removed from majority rule. Thanks, Joe ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update On 12/4/11, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
For special places like Bryce, preservation should have high priority. I vote to keep the dark skies and all the other advantages of the national park and to protect BLM land where its natural values are high. -- Joe
Dark skies are a priority for a minority of the American public. It doesn't affect the gelological formations of the park one bit. Is the general public wrong? From our point of view, yes, they are. From their point of view, we are nutjobs. The American system states that the majority shall have their way, for better or worse. Democracy is not based on the scientific method or ethical truth. If this mine goes ahead, it may have negative repercussions on wildlife. But wildlife exists in far more places than just in and around national parks, and those areas get no protection. No outrage for those areas/species/eccologies? There are many, many other areas that have skies as pristine as Bryce, they just don't have National Park status and don't have amazing geological formations. No restrooms, no amentities, no Interstate highway leading up to the gates. Could that have something to do with our Groupthink? There is a larger issue afoot here, and for anyone to take a stand on precedent or perceived ethical high ground is probably incomplete, at best. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but polarization is so easy. Resolution to the satisfaction of a majority can be very, very hard. The key to success is convincing the Amercian public of the superiority of your claim. In today's ecconomy, with a shrinking middle class and fewer educated, informed, and environmentally conscious people paying taxes every year, you have a tough row to hoe. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities. If you find yourself in the minority (as we are as dark-sky lovers), your job to get your voice heard. If anyone has any experience with an effective way to get heard, I'm all ears. Mat -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 7:46 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update Actually, as one who looks diligently for dark-sky sites, I don't think there are many places with that kind of sky in Utah -- a state that probably has less gunky skies than most. Among Bryce's advantages are that it's high altitude and easily reached by thousands of visitors who don't have access to any dark sky. And as the Trib pointed out, the issue is far from one of urban-vs-rural people, with many in southern Utah opposed to the strip mine. But our opinions may not count one way or the other, as the agency is deciding based on criteria far removed from majority rule. Thanks, Joe ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update On 12/4/11, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
For special places like Bryce, preservation should have high priority. I vote to keep the dark skies and all the other advantages of the national park and to protect BLM land where its natural values are high. -- Joe
Dark skies are a priority for a minority of the American public. It doesn't affect the gelological formations of the park one bit. Is the general public wrong? From our point of view, yes, they are. From their point of view, we are nutjobs. The American system states that the majority shall have their way, for better or worse. Democracy is not based on the scientific method or ethical truth. If this mine goes ahead, it may have negative repercussions on wildlife. But wildlife exists in far more places than just in and around national parks, and those areas get no protection. No outrage for those areas/species/eccologies? There are many, many other areas that have skies as pristine as Bryce, they just don't have National Park status and don't have amazing geological formations. No restrooms, no amentities, no Interstate highway leading up to the gates. Could that have something to do with our Groupthink? There is a larger issue afoot here, and for anyone to take a stand on precedent or perceived ethical high ground is probably incomplete, at best. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but polarization is so easy. Resolution to the satisfaction of a majority can be very, very hard. The key to success is convincing the Amercian public of the superiority of your claim. In today's ecconomy, with a shrinking middle class and fewer educated, informed, and environmentally conscious people paying taxes every year, you have a tough row to hoe. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions and are intended only for the addressee(s). The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing, copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice.Healthcare@siemens.com Thank you
On 12/4/11, Hutchings, Mat (H USA) <mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities.
I agree with you, Mat, but it rarely turns out that way. I firmly believe that the purpose of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. But what the American system "states" isn't what happens in practice much of the time. See the entire message of my posts, not just a statement that glows red-hot when taken on it's own. I'm being a deliberate thorn in your sides here, folks. I'm not one to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" just because it feels good. I'm trying to get people to see that you could get your butt handed to you on a platter. The world is a dangerous place. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful. And even then, it's never a sure thing. I'm at a place in life where I don't have the time or resources to take a political stand. My life is, of necessity, completely focused on survival with perhaps a few hours per week (or month) of discretionary time. I was socially active quite a lot in my younger days, (contact me off-list for details if interested) and what I learned is that you get slapped down hard almost all of the time if in the minority. I've had to take care of an extended family financially since I was 15 years old, to the detriment of my own career and lifelong, heartfelt interests and desires. I'm pretty sure few of you have had to do the same thing for a period stretching over decades. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful that the universe has allowed me the means to get done what I needed to do, and granted me good health enough to do it, but I'm telling you this so you can call upon the compassion in your hearts and understand that I'm actually, truthfully, not on the opposite side of this issue- I am trying to tell you that you face an uphill battle, and not even having the letter of the law, or a moral high ground, will entirely suffice to win the battle. Humanity isn't a noble race. We are animals, and the animalistic aspects of our nature almost always trump the efforts of those who try to rise above it. Don't expect "the system" to come to your rescue. Quoting the words and ideas of founding fathers and leaders whom we admire won't get the job done. Neither will faith in a 'higher power' alone. It may get ugly if you are in it for the long haul. Really ugly. Be ready for it.
Chuck, I'm going to pick out another "red-hot" statement. I believe that humanity is a noble race. We look at the stars and wonder. We rise above tyranny and despotism. We have conquered many diseases and pestilences. We willing and routinely lay down our lives for the hope of a better tomorrow. We create art and music that moves individuals to tears and action. We write words that form governments which protect individuals. Yes, there is an "underbelly" to humanity, but if not, then there would be nothing to improve on. Or to remind us that we need to improve. Yes, I do believe that humans will win the trial that Q puts us through in "Encounter at Farpoint". :) Mat -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:52 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update On 12/4/11, Hutchings, Mat (H USA) <mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities.
I agree with you, Mat, but it rarely turns out that way. I firmly believe that the purpose of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. But what the American system "states" isn't what happens in practice much of the time. See the entire message of my posts, not just a statement that glows red-hot when taken on it's own. I'm being a deliberate thorn in your sides here, folks. I'm not one to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" just because it feels good. I'm trying to get people to see that you could get your butt handed to you on a platter. The world is a dangerous place. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful. And even then, it's never a sure thing. I'm at a place in life where I don't have the time or resources to take a political stand. My life is, of necessity, completely focused on survival with perhaps a few hours per week (or month) of discretionary time. I was socially active quite a lot in my younger days, (contact me off-list for details if interested) and what I learned is that you get slapped down hard almost all of the time if in the minority. I've had to take care of an extended family financially since I was 15 years old, to the detriment of my own career and lifelong, heartfelt interests and desires. I'm pretty sure few of you have had to do the same thing for a period stretching over decades. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful that the universe has allowed me the means to get done what I needed to do, and granted me good health enough to do it, but I'm telling you this so you can call upon the compassion in your hearts and understand that I'm actually, truthfully, not on the opposite side of this issue- I am trying to tell you that you face an uphill battle, and not even having the letter of the law, or a moral high ground, will entirely suffice to win the battle. Humanity isn't a noble race. We are animals, and the animalistic aspects of our nature almost always trump the efforts of those who try to rise above it. Don't expect "the system" to come to your rescue. Quoting the words and ideas of founding fathers and leaders whom we admire won't get the job done. Neither will faith in a 'higher power' alone. It may get ugly if you are in it for the long haul. Really ugly. Be ready for it. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions and are intended only for the addressee(s). The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing, copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice.Healthcare@siemens.com Thank you
I'll add a thought . . . I believe in the power of an individual to make a difference. If I didn't, I won't be in the profession I am in nor would I stay in that profession. I know one individual can and does make a difference in many ways. Thus the effort is well worth the price. It makes me think of one of my favorite songs from a 1960's musical: To dream ... the impossible dream ... To fight ... the unbeatable foe ... To bear ... with unbearable sorrow ... To run ... where the brave dare not go ... To right ... the unrightable wrong ... To love ... pure and chaste from afar ... To try ... when your arms are too weary ... To reach ... the unreachable star ... This is my quest, to follow that star ... No matter how hopeless, no matter how far ... To fight for the right, without question or pause ... To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause ... And I know if I'll only be true, to this glorious quest, That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm, when I'm laid to my rest ... And the world will be better for this: That one man, scorned and covered with scars, Still strove, with his last ounce of courage, To reach ... the unreachable star ... I think that Utah, the United States and our world needs more people who will strive with their last ounce of courage to make a difference. This presents just one way to do so. Just my opinion. On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Hutchings, Mat (H USA) < mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
Chuck, I'm going to pick out another "red-hot" statement.
I believe that humanity is a noble race. We look at the stars and wonder. We rise above tyranny and despotism. We have conquered many diseases and pestilences. We willing and routinely lay down our lives for the hope of a better tomorrow. We create art and music that moves individuals to tears and action. We write words that form governments which protect individuals.
Yes, there is an "underbelly" to humanity, but if not, then there would be nothing to improve on. Or to remind us that we need to improve.
Yes, I do believe that humans will win the trial that Q puts us through in "Encounter at Farpoint". :)
Mat
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:52 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
On 12/4/11, Hutchings, Mat (H USA) <mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities.
I agree with you, Mat, but it rarely turns out that way. I firmly believe that the purpose of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. But what the American system "states" isn't what happens in practice much of the time. See the entire message of my posts, not just a statement that glows red-hot when taken on it's own.
I'm being a deliberate thorn in your sides here, folks. I'm not one to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" just because it feels good. I'm trying to get people to see that you could get your butt handed to you on a platter.
The world is a dangerous place. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful. And even then, it's never a sure thing.
I'm at a place in life where I don't have the time or resources to take a political stand. My life is, of necessity, completely focused on survival with perhaps a few hours per week (or month) of discretionary time. I was socially active quite a lot in my younger days, (contact me off-list for details if interested) and what I learned is that you get slapped down hard almost all of the time if in the minority. I've had to take care of an extended family financially since I was 15 years old, to the detriment of my own career and lifelong, heartfelt interests and desires. I'm pretty sure few of you have had to do the same thing for a period stretching over decades. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful that the universe has allowed me the means to get done what I needed to do, and granted me good health enough to do it, but I'm telling you this so you can call upon the compassion in your hearts and understand that I'm actually, truthfully, not on the opposite side of this issue- I am trying to tell you that you face an uphill battle, and not even having the letter of the law, or a moral high ground, will entirely suffice to win the battle. Humanity isn't a noble race. We are animals, and the animalistic aspects of our nature almost always trump the efforts of those who try to rise above it. Don't expect "the system" to come to your rescue. Quoting the words and ideas of founding fathers and leaders whom we admire won't get the job done. Neither will faith in a 'higher power' alone.
It may get ugly if you are in it for the long haul. Really ugly. Be ready for it.
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions and are intended only for the addressee(s).
The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing, copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice.Healthcare@siemens.com
Thank you
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-- Jay Eads
Mat, I'd like to be hopeful about the goodness of humanity too, but my okole has been kicked so many times it's just one big footprint. All too often we lose the good fight. But sometimes it's still worth trying. It's why I love the underdog. For example, I know Cory and I are going to lose our battle with PayPal, but we're still going to fight. -- Joe ________________________________ From: "Hutchings, Mat (H USA)" <mat.hutchings@siemens.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update Chuck, I'm going to pick out another "red-hot" statement. I believe that humanity is a noble race. We look at the stars and wonder. We rise above tyranny and despotism. We have conquered many diseases and pestilences. We willing and routinely lay down our lives for the hope of a better tomorrow. We create art and music that moves individuals to tears and action. We write words that form governments which protect individuals. Yes, there is an "underbelly" to humanity, but if not, then there would be nothing to improve on. Or to remind us that we need to improve. Yes, I do believe that humans will win the trial that Q puts us through in "Encounter at Farpoint". :) Mat -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:52 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update On 12/4/11, Hutchings, Mat (H USA) <mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities.
I agree with you, Mat, but it rarely turns out that way. I firmly believe that the purpose of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. But what the American system "states" isn't what happens in practice much of the time. See the entire message of my posts, not just a statement that glows red-hot when taken on it's own. I'm being a deliberate thorn in your sides here, folks. I'm not one to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" just because it feels good. I'm trying to get people to see that you could get your butt handed to you on a platter. The world is a dangerous place. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful. And even then, it's never a sure thing. I'm at a place in life where I don't have the time or resources to take a political stand. My life is, of necessity, completely focused on survival with perhaps a few hours per week (or month) of discretionary time. I was socially active quite a lot in my younger days, (contact me off-list for details if interested) and what I learned is that you get slapped down hard almost all of the time if in the minority. I've had to take care of an extended family financially since I was 15 years old, to the detriment of my own career and lifelong, heartfelt interests and desires. I'm pretty sure few of you have had to do the same thing for a period stretching over decades. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful that the universe has allowed me the means to get done what I needed to do, and granted me good health enough to do it, but I'm telling you this so you can call upon the compassion in your hearts and understand that I'm actually, truthfully, not on the opposite side of this issue- I am trying to tell you that you face an uphill battle, and not even having the letter of the law, or a moral high ground, will entirely suffice to win the battle. Humanity isn't a noble race. We are animals, and the animalistic aspects of our nature almost always trump the efforts of those who try to rise above it. Don't expect "the system" to come to your rescue. Quoting the words and ideas of founding fathers and leaders whom we admire won't get the job done. Neither will faith in a 'higher power' alone. It may get ugly if you are in it for the long haul. Really ugly. Be ready for it. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions and are intended only for the addressee(s). The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing, copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice.Healthcare@siemens.com Thank you _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php
On 12/4/11, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mat, I'd like to be hopeful about the goodness of humanity too, but my okole has been kicked so many times it's just one big footprint.
Isn't it interesting that the Drake Equation assumes a finite (alarmingly short) lifespan for intelligent, technically capable species.
When we are considering billions of years a "short" lifespan can be a long time.
On 12/4/11, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mat, I'd like to be hopeful about the goodness of humanity too, but my okole has been kicked so many times it's just one big footprint.
Isn't it interesting that the Drake Equation assumes a finite (alarmingly short) lifespan for intelligent, technically capable species.
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" I get knocked down but I get up again"
just a side note: Utah is well outside of migratory flyways, currently more birds are killed by automobiles than wind turbines, by several magnitudes. Mat, I'd like to be hopeful about the goodness of humanity too, but my
okole has been kicked so many times it's just one big footprint. All too often we lose the good fight. But sometimes it's still worth trying. It's why I love the underdog. For example, I know Cory and I are going to lose our battle with PayPal, but we're still going to fight. -- Joe
________________________________ From: "Hutchings, Mat (H USA)" <mat.hutchings@siemens.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
Chuck, I'm going to pick out another "red-hot" statement.
I believe that humanity is a noble race. We look at the stars and wonder. We rise above tyranny and despotism. We have conquered many diseases and pestilences. We willing and routinely lay down our lives for the hope of a better tomorrow. We create art and music that moves individuals to tears and action. We write words that form governments which protect individuals.
Yes, there is an "underbelly" to humanity, but if not, then there would be nothing to improve on. Or to remind us that we need to improve.
Yes, I do believe that humans will win the trial that Q puts us through in "Encounter at Farpoint". :)
Mat
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:52 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
On 12/4/11, Hutchings, Mat (H USA) <mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities.
I agree with you, Mat, but it rarely turns out that way. I firmly believe that the purpose of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. But what the American system "states" isn't what happens in practice much of the time. See the entire message of my posts, not just a statement that glows red-hot when taken on it's own.
I'm being a deliberate thorn in your sides here, folks. I'm not one to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" just because it feels good. I'm trying to get people to see that you could get your butt handed to you on a platter.
The world is a dangerous place. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful. And even then, it's never a sure thing.
I'm at a place in life where I don't have the time or resources to take a political stand. My life is, of necessity, completely focused on survival with perhaps a few hours per week (or month) of discretionary time. I was socially active quite a lot in my younger days, (contact me off-list for details if interested) and what I learned is that you get slapped down hard almost all of the time if in the minority. I've had to take care of an extended family financially since I was 15 years old, to the detriment of my own career and lifelong, heartfelt interests and desires. I'm pretty sure few of you have had to do the same thing for a period stretching over decades. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful that the universe has allowed me the means to get done what I needed to do, and granted me good health enough to do it, but I'm telling you this so you can call upon the compassion in your hearts and understand that I'm actually, truthfully, not on the opposite side of this issue- I am trying to tell you that you face an uphill battle, and not even having the letter of the law, or a moral high ground, will entirely suffice to win the battle. Humanity isn't a noble race. We are animals, and the animalistic aspects of our nature almost always trump the efforts of those who try to rise above it. Don't expect "the system" to come to your rescue. Quoting the words and ideas of founding fathers and leaders whom we admire won't get the job done. Neither will faith in a 'higher power' alone.
It may get ugly if you are in it for the long haul. Really ugly. Be ready for it.
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On 12/5/11, erikhansen@thebluezone.net <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
" I get knocked down but I get up again"
just a side note:
Utah is well outside of migratory flyways, currently more birds are killed by automobiles than wind turbines, by several magnitudes.
After last week's wind storm, I was returning south on I-215 and drove through an entire flock of dead starlings littering the road. There must have been hundreds of them. It was apparent that they all died right there in a single event.
OH NO!! Its the Aflockalypse!!! Quoting Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com>:
After last week's wind storm, I was returning south on I-215 and drove through an entire flock of dead starlings littering the road. There must have been hundreds of them. It was apparent that they all died right there in a single event.
That's a great one, Jo! Made Cory and me both laugh. ________________________________ From: Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update OT OH NO!! Its the Aflockalypse!!! Quoting Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com>:
After last week's wind storm, I was returning south on I-215 and drove through an entire flock of dead starlings littering the road. There must have been hundreds of them. It was apparent that they all died right there in a single event.
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I passed the scene of the carnage again today. UDOT hasn't cleaned-up the pile of carcasses yet, but it looks like snowplows have heaped them all onto the shoulders of the road. The ones that haven't turned into grease-spots yet, at least.
Jo gets a gold star for that one :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josephine Grahn" <bsi@xmission.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 12:46:18 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update OT OH NO!! Its the Aflockalypse!!! Quoting Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com>:
After last week's wind storm, I was returning south on I-215 and drove through an entire flock of dead starlings littering the road. There must have been hundreds of them. It was apparent that they all died right there in a single event.
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Eric, you must not be a waterfowler, other wise you would not make such a statement about UT being well outside of migratory flyways. Where do you think the ducks and geese come from to available themselves of the Bear River Migratory Bird Refuge? Or, the local shooting areas and/or the private hunting clubs along the East side of the Lake? From the local golf courses? UT is a major byway of the Central Flyway (per "North American Flyways") ranging from "the Northwestern arctic coast, where this _great_ flyway has its beginning, the same territory that sends hosts of migrants down the Mississippi Flyway, but further south, in Canada, the western boundary follows closely the Eastern base of the Rocky Mountains. In Western Montana, however, the continental divide is crossed and the line follows through the _Great Salt Lake Valley_ and then somewhat east of south across the tableland of Mexico." I personally have driven upwards of some 1,300,000 miles, mostly throughout the Western USA. I did hit a low-flying duck just south of Anchorage, but was in a motor home, and feel I would not have hit it if in a passenger vehicle. To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen, or heard of, a goose being killed by a motor vehicle. I will not argue with the word "birds" in your statement, but, if you are meaning waterfowl, I would be interested in your source of reference. Now, that is just my experience. But, in WY, at McFadden, I have seen carcasses of geese killed by the wind turbines there. Poor goose, just following its internal navigation system, does not have a built in sensor for the turbine blades, which are quite deceptive in the speed with which they rotate. My two- bits worth. 73, lh On 12/5/2011 10:00 AM, erikhansen@thebluezone.net wrote:
" I get knocked down but I get up again" just a side note:
Utah is well outside of migratory flyways, currently more birds are killed by automobiles than wind turbines, by several magnitudes.
Mat, I'd like to be hopeful about the goodness of humanity too, but my
okole has been kicked so many times it's just one big footprint. All too often we lose the good fight. But sometimes it's still worth trying. It's why I love the underdog. For example, I know Cory and I are going to lose our battle with PayPal, but we're still going to fight. -- Joe
________________________________ From: "Hutchings, Mat (H USA)"<mat.hutchings@siemens.com> To: Utah Astronomy<utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
Chuck, I'm going to pick out another "red-hot" statement.
I believe that humanity is a noble race. We look at the stars and wonder. We rise above tyranny and despotism. We have conquered many diseases and pestilences. We willing and routinely lay down our lives for the hope of a better tomorrow. We create art and music that moves individuals to tears and action. We write words that form governments which protect individuals.
Yes, there is an "underbelly" to humanity, but if not, then there would be nothing to improve on. Or to remind us that we need to improve.
Yes, I do believe that humans will win the trial that Q puts us through in "Encounter at Farpoint". :)
Mat
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:52 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
On 12/4/11, Hutchings, Mat (H USA)<mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities. I agree with you, Mat, but it rarely turns out that way. I firmly believe that the purpose of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. But what the American system "states" isn't what happens in practice much of the time. See the entire message of my posts, not just a statement that glows red-hot when taken on it's own.
I'm being a deliberate thorn in your sides here, folks. I'm not one to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" just because it feels good. I'm trying to get people to see that you could get your butt handed to you on a platter.
The world is a dangerous place. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful. And even then, it's never a sure thing.
I'm at a place in life where I don't have the time or resources to take a political stand. My life is, of necessity, completely focused on survival with perhaps a few hours per week (or month) of discretionary time. I was socially active quite a lot in my younger days, (contact me off-list for details if interested) and what I learned is that you get slapped down hard almost all of the time if in the minority. I've had to take care of an extended family financially since I was 15 years old, to the detriment of my own career and lifelong, heartfelt interests and desires. I'm pretty sure few of you have had to do the same thing for a period stretching over decades. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful that the universe has allowed me the means to get done what I needed to do, and granted me good health enough to do it, but I'm telling you this so you can call upon the compassion in your hearts and understand that I'm actually, truthfully, not on the opposite side of this issue- I am trying to tell you that you face an uphill battle, and not even having the letter of the law, or a moral high ground, will entirely suffice to win the battle. Humanity isn't a noble race. We are animals, and the animalistic aspects of our nature almost always trump the efforts of those who try to rise above it. Don't expect "the system" to come to your rescue. Quoting the words and ideas of founding fathers and leaders whom we admire won't get the job done. Neither will faith in a 'higher power' alone.
It may get ugly if you are in it for the long haul. Really ugly. Be ready for it.
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Thank you
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I come from the Missouri and Mississippi flyways where Geese and Ducks literally obscure the sun. Geese will gather where there is open water like the Great Salt Lake, I thought Bear River Refuge was their destination.. I have not ever hit a Duck or Goose with a gun or a car, nor I have seen anything west of the rockies that approaches the midwestern migrations. I will have to dig a little to find the source as I recall it was pro bird group.
Eric, you must not be a waterfowler, other wise you would not make such
a statement about UT being well outside of migratory flyways. Where do you think the ducks and geese come from to available themselves of the Bear River Migratory Bird Refuge? Or, the local shooting areas and/or the private hunting clubs along the East side of the Lake? From the local golf courses? UT is a major byway of the Central Flyway (per "North American Flyways") ranging from "the Northwestern arctic coast, where this _great_ flyway has its beginning, the same territory that sends hosts of migrants down the Mississippi Flyway, but further south, in Canada, the western boundary follows closely the Eastern base of the Rocky Mountains. In Western Montana, however, the continental divide is crossed and the line follows through the _Great Salt Lake Valley_ and then somewhat east of south across the tableland of Mexico." I personally have driven upwards of some 1,300,000 miles, mostly throughout the Western USA. I did hit a low-flying duck just south of Anchorage, but was in a motor home, and feel I would not have hit it if in a passenger vehicle. To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen, or heard of, a goose being killed by a motor vehicle. I will not argue with the word "birds" in your statement, but, if you are meaning waterfowl, I would be interested in your source of reference. Now, that is just my experience. But, in WY, at McFadden, I have seen carcasses of geese killed by the wind turbines there. Poor goose, just following its internal navigation system, does not have a built in sensor for the turbine blades, which are quite deceptive in the speed with which they rotate. My two- bits worth. 73, lh
On 12/5/2011 10:00 AM, erikhansen@thebluezone.net wrote:
" I get knocked down but I get up again" just a side note:
Utah is well outside of migratory flyways, currently more birds are killed by automobiles than wind turbines, by several magnitudes.
Mat, I'd like to be hopeful about the goodness of humanity too, but my
okole has been kicked so many times it's just one big footprint. All too often we lose the good fight. But sometimes it's still worth trying. It's why I love the underdog. For example, I know Cory and I are going to lose our battle with PayPal, but we're still going to fight. -- Joe
________________________________ From: "Hutchings, Mat (H USA)"<mat.hutchings@siemens.com> To: Utah Astronomy<utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
Chuck, I'm going to pick out another "red-hot" statement.
I believe that humanity is a noble race. We look at the stars and wonder. We rise above tyranny and despotism. We have conquered many diseases and pestilences. We willing and routinely lay down our lives for the hope of a better tomorrow. We create art and music that moves individuals to tears and action. We write words that form governments which protect individuals.
Yes, there is an "underbelly" to humanity, but if not, then there would be nothing to improve on. Or to remind us that we need to improve.
Yes, I do believe that humans will win the trial that Q puts us through in "Encounter at Farpoint". :)
Mat
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:52 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
On 12/4/11, Hutchings, Mat (H USA)<mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities. I agree with you, Mat, but it rarely turns out that way. I firmly believe that the purpose of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. But what the American system "states" isn't what happens in practice much of the time. See the entire message of my posts, not just a statement that glows red-hot when taken on it's own.
I'm being a deliberate thorn in your sides here, folks. I'm not one to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" just because it feels good. I'm trying to get people to see that you could get your butt handed to you on a platter.
The world is a dangerous place. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful. And even then, it's never a sure thing.
I'm at a place in life where I don't have the time or resources to take a political stand. My life is, of necessity, completely focused on survival with perhaps a few hours per week (or month) of discretionary time. I was socially active quite a lot in my younger days, (contact me off-list for details if interested) and what I learned is that you get slapped down hard almost all of the time if in the minority. I've had to take care of an extended family financially since I was 15 years old, to the detriment of my own career and lifelong, heartfelt interests and desires. I'm pretty sure few of you have had to do the same thing for a period stretching over decades. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful that the universe has allowed me the means to get done what I needed to do, and granted me good health enough to do it, but I'm telling you this so you can call upon the compassion in your hearts and understand that I'm actually, truthfully, not on the opposite side of this issue- I am trying to tell you that you face an uphill battle, and not even having the letter of the law, or a moral high ground, will entirely suffice to win the battle. Humanity isn't a noble race. We are animals, and the animalistic aspects of our nature almost always trump the efforts of those who try to rise above it. Don't expect "the system" to come to your rescue. Quoting the words and ideas of founding fathers and leaders whom we admire won't get the job done. Neither will faith in a 'higher power' alone.
It may get ugly if you are in it for the long haul. Really ugly. Be ready for it.
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Thank you
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From the American Bird Conservancy.
http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/collisions/index.html Eric, you must not be a waterfowler, other wise you would not make such
a statement about UT being well outside of migratory flyways. Where do you think the ducks and geese come from to available themselves of the Bear River Migratory Bird Refuge? Or, the local shooting areas and/or the private hunting clubs along the East side of the Lake? From the local golf courses? UT is a major byway of the Central Flyway (per "North American Flyways") ranging from "the Northwestern arctic coast, where this _great_ flyway has its beginning, the same territory that sends hosts of migrants down the Mississippi Flyway, but further south, in Canada, the western boundary follows closely the Eastern base of the Rocky Mountains. In Western Montana, however, the continental divide is crossed and the line follows through the _Great Salt Lake Valley_ and then somewhat east of south across the tableland of Mexico." I personally have driven upwards of some 1,300,000 miles, mostly throughout the Western USA. I did hit a low-flying duck just south of Anchorage, but was in a motor home, and feel I would not have hit it if in a passenger vehicle. To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen, or heard of, a goose being killed by a motor vehicle. I will not argue with the word "birds" in your statement, but, if you are meaning waterfowl, I would be interested in your source of reference. Now, that is just my experience. But, in WY, at McFadden, I have seen carcasses of geese killed by the wind turbines there. Poor goose, just following its internal navigation system, does not have a built in sensor for the turbine blades, which are quite deceptive in the speed with which they rotate. My two- bits worth. 73, lh
On 12/5/2011 10:00 AM, erikhansen@thebluezone.net wrote:
" I get knocked down but I get up again" just a side note:
Utah is well outside of migratory flyways, currently more birds are killed by automobiles than wind turbines, by several magnitudes.
Mat, I'd like to be hopeful about the goodness of humanity too, but my
okole has been kicked so many times it's just one big footprint. All too often we lose the good fight. But sometimes it's still worth trying. It's why I love the underdog. For example, I know Cory and I are going to lose our battle with PayPal, but we're still going to fight. -- Joe
________________________________ From: "Hutchings, Mat (H USA)"<mat.hutchings@siemens.com> To: Utah Astronomy<utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
Chuck, I'm going to pick out another "red-hot" statement.
I believe that humanity is a noble race. We look at the stars and wonder. We rise above tyranny and despotism. We have conquered many diseases and pestilences. We willing and routinely lay down our lives for the hope of a better tomorrow. We create art and music that moves individuals to tears and action. We write words that form governments which protect individuals.
Yes, there is an "underbelly" to humanity, but if not, then there would be nothing to improve on. Or to remind us that we need to improve.
Yes, I do believe that humans will win the trial that Q puts us through in "Encounter at Farpoint". :)
Mat
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hards Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 8:52 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Alton Mine Update
On 12/4/11, Hutchings, Mat (H USA)<mat.hutchings@siemens.com> wrote:
I've got to chime in on a political statement that was made in this thread. It was said that: "The American system states that the majority shall have their way...". The American system does not state this. We are a representative republic, not a strict democracy. A representative republic protects the rights of minorities. I agree with you, Mat, but it rarely turns out that way. I firmly believe that the purpose of a democracy is to protect the rights of the minority. But what the American system "states" isn't what happens in practice much of the time. See the entire message of my posts, not just a statement that glows red-hot when taken on it's own.
I'm being a deliberate thorn in your sides here, folks. I'm not one to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" just because it feels good. I'm trying to get people to see that you could get your butt handed to you on a platter.
The world is a dangerous place. In the eternal struggle between good and evil, evil usually wins, unless good is very, very careful. And even then, it's never a sure thing.
I'm at a place in life where I don't have the time or resources to take a political stand. My life is, of necessity, completely focused on survival with perhaps a few hours per week (or month) of discretionary time. I was socially active quite a lot in my younger days, (contact me off-list for details if interested) and what I learned is that you get slapped down hard almost all of the time if in the minority. I've had to take care of an extended family financially since I was 15 years old, to the detriment of my own career and lifelong, heartfelt interests and desires. I'm pretty sure few of you have had to do the same thing for a period stretching over decades. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful that the universe has allowed me the means to get done what I needed to do, and granted me good health enough to do it, but I'm telling you this so you can call upon the compassion in your hearts and understand that I'm actually, truthfully, not on the opposite side of this issue- I am trying to tell you that you face an uphill battle, and not even having the letter of the law, or a moral high ground, will entirely suffice to win the battle. Humanity isn't a noble race. We are animals, and the animalistic aspects of our nature almost always trump the efforts of those who try to rise above it. Don't expect "the system" to come to your rescue. Quoting the words and ideas of founding fathers and leaders whom we admire won't get the job done. Neither will faith in a 'higher power' alone.
It may get ugly if you are in it for the long haul. Really ugly. Be ready for it.
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participants (8)
-
Chuck Hards -
erikhansen＠thebluezone.net -
Hutchings, Mat (H USA) -
Jay Eads -
jcarman6＠q.com -
Joe Bauman -
Josephine Grahn -
Larry Holmes