Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil, then I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe ------------------------------ On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 9:05 AM MDT Siegfried Jachmann wrote:
I agree about the water. We're being asked to conserve already. We're trying to spread the same amount of water to a growing population. There is an ongoing advertising campaign asking us to conserve. That affects the quality of life. What we need currently is more water infrastructure. We need more dams.
Whether we need the oil and gas RIGHT NOW becomes a mute point. As Chuck and I said, in the face of an ever growing population, and that is world-wide, sooner or later we will need to tap all available resources or become a third-world world. We can exist on less than what we consume but as a nation, do we really want to?
Oil and gas are still the best resources for our country. We have not developed a more efficient fuel for cars than gasoline. The additives currently being used add cost and decrease efficiency. We have an ever increasing demand for these resources. I'm not saying I like the alternative, not at all. I'm looking to the future and saying, this is the face of reality, this is the road we're going down.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
It is a false assumption to say we need these resources now, renewable sources are being largely ignored. Water is a more important resource than oil and gas in the SW, this shortage is here now.
At some point in time as the population continues to grow, we will need to
access those resources. I think it's a false sense of stewardship to protect some of the areas now protected. We have need for some of those resources now.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
You are mixing up wilderness protection with national parks, Chuck. Parts of national parks are managed for wilderness values but the NPS is also charged with providing for visitors as well as protecting resources. There will be no industrial development in national parks, as mandated by the Park Service's Organic Act. The tracts proposed for development are not in parks. But many of them have been found to have qualities of roadlessness, solitude, and other factord that could qualify them for wilderness protection. One of Utah's most precious resources is its pristine wilderness, which should be protected for the future. -- Joe
------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:13 PM MDT Larry Holmes wrote:
Chuck, that could almost apply to any place in Nevada. 73
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Affordable energy is an actual need for a lot of people, too, Joe.
Look, I'm not a "drill, baby, drill" advocate. But likewise I haven't found a lot of solitude in most of the National Parks I've visited, at least during 3 seasons of the year. I'm sure you would be mostly alone in January in most of them. They are typically crawling with thousands of people, all crammed into small spaces around the edges of the cordoned-off vistas. The places where visitors are allowed are not wilderness anymore.
You want solitude? Let's go to an isolated place here in the west I know of, about 70 miles north of Battle Mountain, Nevada. Not a foreign tourist, group of bicyclists, or family of of loud kids and dogs, for miles. Just the occassional cow and coyote. And no drilling rigs. No amazing red-rock formations either, but the sky is pretty darn dark.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
And someday the sun will become a planetary nova. But looking at everything from that sort of standpoint is not helpful for our
generation's
real dilemmas. Wilderness and solitude may be actual needs for some people, including me. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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The problem is the mindset that there is no need to conserve, our
society as a whole is wasteful and is squandering resources. State and local governments tell us conserve water but don't practice what they preach. Parks are watered daily and grass is cut short, while they tell us to water twice a week and cut the grass long. The touted shale sources cannot be developed without laying waste to areas people already call home. There are numerous examples in Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico add Pennsylvania. The oil and gas in the shale in the Eastern Utah can only happen by reducing water available to 40 million people and growing. It is a waste to use natural gas to produce electricity, and the pollution emitted by fracking makes it no better than coal (methane, carcinogens, and neurotoxins). The "halliburton exemption" is proof of its polluting nature. Many of these like Tar Sands uses nearly as much energy as it produces. Erik
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil, then I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
------------------------------ On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 9:05 AM MDT Siegfried Jachmann wrote:
I agree about the water. We're being asked to conserve already. We're trying to spread the same amount of water to a growing population. There is an ongoing advertising campaign asking us to conserve. That affects the quality of life. What we need currently is more water infrastructure. We need more dams.
Whether we need the oil and gas RIGHT NOW becomes a mute point. As Chuck and I said, in the face of an ever growing population, and that is world-wide, sooner or later we will need to tap all available resources or become a third-world world. We can exist on less than what we consume but as a nation, do we really want to?
Oil and gas are still the best resources for our country. We have not developed a more efficient fuel for cars than gasoline. The additives currently being used add cost and decrease efficiency. We have an ever increasing demand for these resources. I'm not saying I like the alternative, not at all. I'm looking to the future and saying, this is the face of reality, this is the road we're going down.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
It is a false assumption to say we need these resources now, renewable sources are being largely ignored. Water is a more important resource than oil and gas in the SW, this shortage is here now.
At some point in time as the population continues to grow, we will need to
access those resources. I think it's a false sense of stewardship to protect some of the areas now protected. We have need for some of those resources now.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
You are mixing up wilderness protection with national parks, Chuck. Parts of national parks are managed for wilderness values but the NPS is also charged with providing for visitors as well as protecting resources. There will be no industrial development in national parks, as mandated by the Park Service's Organic Act. The tracts proposed for development are not in parks. But many of them have been found to have qualities of roadlessness, solitude, and other factord that could qualify them for wilderness protection. One of Utah's most precious resources is its pristine wilderness, which should be protected for the future. -- Joe
------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 8:13 PM MDT Larry Holmes wrote:
Chuck, that could almost apply to any place in Nevada. 73
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:42 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Affordable energy is an actual need for a lot of people, too, Joe.
Look, I'm not a "drill, baby, drill" advocate. But likewise I haven't found a lot of solitude in most of the National Parks I've visited, at least during 3 seasons of the year. I'm sure you would be mostly alone in January in most of them. They are typically crawling with thousands of people, all crammed into small spaces around the edges of the cordoned-off vistas. The places where visitors are allowed are not wilderness anymore.
You want solitude? Let's go to an isolated place here in the west I know of, about 70 miles north of Battle Mountain, Nevada. Not a foreign tourist, group of bicyclists, or family of of loud kids and dogs, for miles. Just the occassional cow and coyote. And no drilling rigs. No amazing red-rock formations either, but the sky is pretty darn dark.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
And someday the sun will become a planetary nova. But looking at everything from that sort of standpoint is not helpful for our
generation's
real dilemmas. Wilderness and solitude may be actual needs for some people, including me. -- Joe
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I hear that same argument from opponents of bio-diesel and solar power. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
Many of these like Tar Sands uses nearly as much energy as it produces.
They may have a point about bio-diesel, but in respect to solar they are simply mistaken.
I hear that same argument from opponents of bio-diesel and solar power.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
Many of these like Tar Sands uses nearly as much energy as it produces.
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On the other hand the only person I know who use bio-diesel gets over 50 mph and his car would pass emission tests.
I hear that same argument from opponents of bio-diesel and solar power.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
Many of these like Tar Sands uses nearly as much energy as it produces.
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I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled. My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before. The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil, then I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe ________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk. I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled. My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before. The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil, then I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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Joe, is correct here vast reserves in our shale is not proven available yet and it appears the human impact is becoming unacceptable. The oil industry is paying huge sums to congress to hide the true impacts.
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S.
isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil, then I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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Ahem, I believe I was the one who posted that many reserves are not yet available. In any case, it doesn't pay here to be devil's advocate and try to look at more than one side of an issue. I said more than once that I value unspoiled wilderness and dark skies, but it is a complicated issue. I also feel that nobody on this list is going to have their opinion swayed one way or the other, so my suggestion is that those who feel strongly about these issues, one way or the other, become involved in a manner that furthers their interests. The sun came out so I may set up my PST. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
Joe, is correct here vast reserves in our shale is not proven available yet and it appears the human impact is becoming unacceptable. The oil industry is paying huge sums to congress to hide the true impacts.
"all it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing"
the tech of fracking is proven to be effective just to dangerous to be done near populated areas or drought prone areas. Ahem, I believe I was the one who posted that many reserves are not yet
available.
In any case, it doesn't pay here to be devil's advocate and try to look at more than one side of an issue. I said more than once that I value unspoiled wilderness and dark skies, but it is a complicated issue.
I also feel that nobody on this list is going to have their opinion swayed one way or the other, so my suggestion is that those who feel strongly about these issues, one way or the other, become involved in a manner that furthers their interests.
The sun came out so I may set up my PST.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net>wrote:
Joe, is correct here vast reserves in our shale is not proven available yet and it appears the human impact is becoming unacceptable. The oil industry is paying huge sums to congress to hide the true impacts.
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Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil, then I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years
away,
based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe ________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk. Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil, then I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years
away,
based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
The point has escaped you Joe. The conclusion you draw below has nothing to do with what I wrote (not "my" logic, as I said, I have no skin in this game, but you missed that too apparently). And you're right, this isn't the place to discuss it. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
Germany's mistake was starting a war!
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By
your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Yes, of course! I was just responding to the question of oil reserves being so crucial. ________________________________ From: Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Germany's mistake was starting a war!
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By
your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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It is all related to dark sky. Cities could greatly reduce electrical use by switching fixtures. It is a big expense initially but economical in no time.
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By
your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Joe, you're simply not making sense. How you make the jump from what I wrote to "any number of countries can conquer us" is beyond me. Despite Obama's effort to degrade them, we still have the finest military because of the technology and command and control available to them. OK Joe, just for the fun of it compare Canada's military to ours. How do YOU figure "Canada can kick our butts", because that certainly is not my position. Never was, never will be. And it's not my position that all additional oil production that could be had is even needed by the military. All I said in order to maintain our quality of life, production needs to keep up with an expanded demand. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried
Oh forget it, Siegfried. Quite obviously you didn't look at the world energy reserve map or understand that I was replying to Chuck's comment linking reserves to military power. His contention about military power and oil, including regional wars over oil, was made in the context of the U.S. needs -- see the subject line above; the discussion was about oil leases in Utah. He claimed If you don't have oil you can't have a military and said there will be regional wars over oil. The fact is, oil doesn't equate to military power, and the most powerful countries aren't likely to be the ones with most oil -- i.e. my sarcastic statement about Venezuela or other countries with more reserves kicking our butts (you do understand sarcasm, right?). Your comment about the Battle of the Bulge was off the wall because Germany lost due to a great many other factors, not the least of which was its two fronts. But I'm not discussing it any further. -- Signing out on this discussion, Joe ________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk. Joe, you're simply not making sense. How you make the jump from what I wrote to "any number of countries can conquer us" is beyond me. Despite Obama's effort to degrade them, we still have the finest military because of the technology and command and control available to them. OK Joe, just for the fun of it compare Canada's military to ours. How do YOU figure "Canada can kick our butts", because that certainly is not my position. Never was, never will be. And it's not my position that all additional oil production that could be had is even needed by the military. All I said in order to maintain our quality of life, production needs to keep up with an expanded demand. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
No, Joe, that was not my contention. Carefully re-read that post. What I said was that as the world's oil reserves dwindle down to the last, they will be grabbed by certain nations to support their armies. That may come in just a matter of decades, if the "vast" reserves you contend are still out there can't be feasibly extracted. That will happen near the end of the fossil fuel age, I'm sure I made that distinction. I also did not single-out the USA as the nation who would make the military oil grab when that time came. I did NOT claim that if you don't have oil you can't have a military. There was no link at all to current or past regional wars over oil. You jumped to that conclusion all by yourself. This is why I don't like these discussions via email. I just don't have confidence that posts will be read carefully. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh forget it, Siegfried. Quite obviously you didn't look at the world energy reserve map or understand that I was replying to Chuck's comment linking reserves to military power. His contention about military power and oil, including regional wars over oil, was made in the context of the U.S. needs -- see the subject line above; the discussion was about oil leases in Utah. He claimed If you don't have oil you can't have a military and said there will be regional wars over oil.
Yeah, enough is enough. 73 Sent from my iPad On Aug 24, 2013, at 6:44 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh forget it, Siegfried. Quite obviously you didn't look at the world energy reserve map or understand that I was replying to Chuck's comment linking reserves to military power. His contention about military power and oil, including regional wars over oil, was made in the context of the U.S. needs -- see the subject line above; the discussion was about oil leases in Utah. He claimed If you don't have oil you can't have a military and said there will be regional wars over oil. The fact is, oil doesn't equate to military power, and the most powerful countries aren't likely to be the ones with most oil -- i.e. my sarcastic statement about Venezuela or other countries with more reserves kicking our butts (you do understand sarcasm, right?). Your comment about the Battle of the Bulge was off the wall because Germany lost due to a great many other factors, not the least of which was its two fronts. But I'm not discussing it any further. -- Signing out on this discussion, Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Joe, you're simply not making sense. How you make the jump from what I wrote to "any number of countries can conquer us" is beyond me. Despite Obama's effort to degrade them, we still have the finest military because of the technology and command and control available to them. OK Joe, just for the fun of it compare Canada's military to ours. How do YOU figure "Canada can kick our butts", because that certainly is not my position. Never was, never will be. And it's not my position that all additional oil production that could be had is even needed by the military. All I said in order to maintain our quality of life, production needs to keep up with an expanded demand.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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You're lost Joe. My comment about the Battle of the Bulge was on point on the importance of oil for the military. That's where German tanks ran out of Petrol. They lost their mobility and that was the end. I wasn't talking in bigger terms, i.e., the Russian front or the mistake of starting the war in the first place. And no Joe, I did not read your comments as sarcasm, I read them as your sincere position. I do understand sarcasm, I just didn't read it into your reply. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh forget it, Siegfried. Quite obviously you didn't look at the world energy reserve map or understand that I was replying to Chuck's comment linking reserves to military power. His contention about military power and oil, including regional wars over oil, was made in the context of the U.S. needs -- see the subject line above; the discussion was about oil leases in Utah. He claimed If you don't have oil you can't have a military and said there will be regional wars over oil. The fact is, oil doesn't equate to military power, and the most powerful countries aren't likely to be the ones with most oil -- i.e. my sarcastic statement about Venezuela or other countries with more reserves kicking our butts (you do understand sarcasm, right?). Your comment about the Battle of the Bulge was off the wall because Germany lost due to a great many other factors, not the least of which was its two fronts. But I'm not discussing it any further. -- Signing out on this discussion, Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Joe, you're simply not making sense. How you make the jump from what I wrote to "any number of countries can conquer us" is beyond me. Despite Obama's effort to degrade them, we still have the finest military because of the technology and command and control available to them. OK Joe, just for the fun of it compare Canada's military to ours. How do YOU figure "Canada can kick our butts", because that certainly is not my position. Never was, never will be. And it's not my position that all additional oil production that could be had is even needed by the military. All I said in order to maintain our quality of life, production needs to keep up with an expanded demand.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried
I re-read Chuck's post and I think He's right. Nowhere does he equate oil reserves with absolute military strength. He just said a military needs oil. The U.S. has a fair amount of reserves and an adequate supply will always be available to the military. From what Chuck wrote to your conclusion that Venezuela could prevail in a war with the US id ludicrous. Don't respond Joe but I know you read this. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org>wrote:
You're lost Joe. My comment about the Battle of the Bulge was on point on the importance of oil for the military. That's where German tanks ran out of Petrol. They lost their mobility and that was the end. I wasn't talking in bigger terms, i.e., the Russian front or the mistake of starting the war in the first place. And no Joe, I did not read your comments as sarcasm, I read them as your sincere position. I do understand sarcasm, I just didn't read it into your reply.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
Oh forget it, Siegfried. Quite obviously you didn't look at the world energy reserve map or understand that I was replying to Chuck's comment linking reserves to military power. His contention about military power and oil, including regional wars over oil, was made in the context of the U.S. needs -- see the subject line above; the discussion was about oil leases in Utah. He claimed If you don't have oil you can't have a military and said there will be regional wars over oil. The fact is, oil doesn't equate to military power, and the most powerful countries aren't likely to be the ones with most oil -- i.e. my sarcastic statement about Venezuela or other countries with more reserves kicking our butts (you do understand sarcasm, right?). Your comment about the Battle of the Bulge was off the wall because Germany lost due to a great many other factors, not the least of which was its two fronts. But I'm not discussing it any further. -- Signing out on this discussion, Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Joe, you're simply not making sense. How you make the jump from what I wrote to "any number of countries can conquer us" is beyond me. Despite Obama's effort to degrade them, we still have the finest military because of the technology and command and control available to them. OK Joe, just for the fun of it compare Canada's military to ours. How do YOU figure "Canada can kick our butts", because that certainly is not my position. Never was, never will be. And it's not my position that all additional oil production that could be had is even needed by the military. All I said in order to maintain our quality of life, production needs to keep up with an expanded demand.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried
-- Siegfried
The military runs on the tax payer and the US spends more than the next 11 military powers.
If we invested as much on solar and wind we would not need coal, gas, or nuclear to produce electricity. Stanford just issued a report saying just that. Also, If you think that is a bogus claim check out what Germany is doing without reduction in electricity production. Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as
Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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The Pentagon has identified fossil fuel dependance as a national security risk, the solar array at Dugway is a response to that. China is the dream market for natural gas, make no mistake the natural gas we produce is about to be exported in huge quantities. This development is for short term profit with long term destruction as the by product.
If you think Iraq was about anything but oil you live in lala land. Erik I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what
is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil, then I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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participants (5)
-
Chuck Hards -
Erik Hansen -
Joe Bauman -
Larry Holmes -
Siegfried Jachmann