My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm... Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
Absolutely a good issue to raise. For one thing, we are talking about climate changes on a planet -- it just happens to be ours. I don't want to be the one who says, I told you so, but .... Joe --- On Tue, 11/24/09, Dale Hooper <Dale.Hooper@sdl.usu.edu> wrote: From: Dale Hooper <Dale.Hooper@sdl.usu.edu> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 10:35 PM My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm... Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
I am consistently astounded by the number of brilliant scientists we have on this group, the ones that do actual research, study the details, and come to seriously educated conclusions about the important decisions that need to be made for our children and grandchildren. So many published scholars! So many highly educated and widely read individuals! I am amazed and in awe! Quoting Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>:
Absolutely a good issue to raise. For one thing, we are talking about climate changes on a planet -- it just happens to be ours. I don't want to be the one who says, I told you so, but .... Joe
--- On Tue, 11/24/09, Dale Hooper <Dale.Hooper@sdl.usu.edu> wrote:
From: Dale Hooper <Dale.Hooper@sdl.usu.edu> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 10:35 PM
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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I guess Jo means we non-scientists have no right to discuss scientific matters. Well, I strongly disagree. -- Joe Bauma n --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote: From: Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:06 AM I am consistently astounded by the number of brilliant scientists we have on this group, the ones that do actual research, study the details, and come to seriously educated conclusions about the important decisions that need to be made for our children and grandchildren. So many published scholars! So many highly educated and widely read individuals! I am amazed and in awe! Quoting Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>:
Absolutely a good issue to raise. For one thing, we are talking about climate changes on a planet -- it just happens to be ours. I don't want to be the one who says, I told you so, but .... Joe
--- On Tue, 11/24/09, Dale Hooper <Dale.Hooper@sdl.usu.edu> wrote:
From: Dale Hooper <Dale.Hooper@sdl.usu.edu> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 10:35 PM
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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No, I don't take "So many published scholars!" as reflecting kindly on those of us who comment on global warming. -- Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> wrote: From: Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:15 AM On 25 Nov 2009, at 00:11, Joe Bauman wrote:
I guess Jo means we non-scientists have no right to discuss scientific matters. Well, I strongly disagree. -- Joe Bauma n
Um, actually I thought she was saying nice things about folks on the list. patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Well, Kurt Fisher, Jerry Foote, Tyler Allred, Don Colton, Patrick Wiggins, Joe Bauman (and others that escape my memory right now)... pretty distinguished, pretty well educated, pretty well published, and, for the most part, I think pretty well read... Quoting Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com>:
On 25 Nov 2009, at 00:11, Joe Bauman wrote:
I guess Jo means we non-scientists have no right to discuss scientific matters. Well, I strongly disagree. -- Joe Bauma n
Um, actually I thought she was saying nice things about folks on the list.
patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Sorry if I misunderstood, Jo, hope we're all still friends. -- another Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote: From: Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:51 AM Well, Kurt Fisher, Jerry Foote, Tyler Allred, Don Colton, Patrick Wiggins, Joe Bauman (and others that escape my memory right now)... pretty distinguished, pretty well educated, pretty well published, and, for the most part, I think pretty well read... Quoting Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com>:
On 25 Nov 2009, at 00:11, Joe Bauman wrote:
I guess Jo means we non-scientists have no right to discuss scientific matters. Well, I strongly disagree. -- Joe Bauma n
Um, actually I thought she was saying nice things about folks on the list.
patrick _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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PS, as the science writer for the Deseret News for many years, I have studied the debates over global warming in great detail. I am sure I'm entitled to my opinion, and I should be able to state it without someone showering me with sarcasm. It's my judgment that global warming takes place sometimes, that cooling also happens, that climate does fluctuate, and that humans have little to do with it. Sorry if that isn't PC enough for some people. But it's really irritating to be told -- well, just reread with she said and then imagine she is replying to your own note. -- Joe Bauman --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:11 AM I guess Jo means we non-scientists have no right to discuss scientific matters. Well, I strongly disagree. -- Joe Bauma n --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> wrote: From: Josephine Grahn <bsi@xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:06 AM I am consistently astounded by the number of brilliant scientists we have on this group, the ones that do actual research, study the details, and come to seriously educated conclusions about the important decisions that need to be made for our children and grandchildren. So many published scholars! So many highly educated and widely read individuals! I am amazed and in awe! Quoting Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com>:
Absolutely a good issue to raise. For one thing, we are talking about climate changes on a planet -- it just happens to be ours. I don't want to be the one who says, I told you so, but .... Joe
--- On Tue, 11/24/09, Dale Hooper <Dale.Hooper@sdl.usu.edu> wrote:
From: Dale Hooper <Dale.Hooper@sdl.usu.edu> Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 10:35 PM
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
This is something I have written about numerous times, even once or twice on this board usually to rolling eyes and usual "Climate Change Denier" comments. I've always wondered why if the debate is over and science is in agreement why it is necessary to ridicule those who disagree? The debate is not over and I believe ultimately a lot of people will have to answer for years of bad science, lies and in some cases outright fraud. This is just a new crack in a crumbling argument. Bad scientific claims repeated over and over is still bad science, it doesn't matter how many people want to believe it. Science should be determined by facts not public opinion and politicians looking for a new career and source of income. The science and data is simply not lining up to support the claims of the IPCC and other like bodies and theories. As an economist I worry about the real damage that can be done by bad legislation based on bad science. Think twice, act once, this should make everyone stop and think. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Hooper Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Exactly what I have thought and said for a long time. There can be disastrous consequence for real people if ill-conceived taxes are passed to reverse a natural change. How many people are struggling to survive right now? How many families are fighting to pay for college educations? How many brilliant young minds will be stuck behind a shop counter because the families need their income? Stick some big taxes on gasoline in the interest of supposedly slowing climate change, and we all pay much more for everything -- and that will hurt. Is it worthwhile to risk a deep worldwide depression on some idea that may be based on faulty assumptions? Where is the cost-benefit analysis of fighting climate change? We have many terrible environmental problems that deserve our attention much more than tilting at the climate windmill. Much of the Pacific is becoming a wasteland because of hazardous plastic waste that has accumulated there: let's clean it up. Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> wrote: From: Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 9:38 AM This is something I have written about numerous times, even once or twice on this board usually to rolling eyes and usual "Climate Change Denier" comments. I've always wondered why if the debate is over and science is in agreement why it is necessary to ridicule those who disagree? The debate is not over and I believe ultimately a lot of people will have to answer for years of bad science, lies and in some cases outright fraud. This is just a new crack in a crumbling argument. Bad scientific claims repeated over and over is still bad science, it doesn't matter how many people want to believe it. Science should be determined by facts not public opinion and politicians looking for a new career and source of income. The science and data is simply not lining up to support the claims of the IPCC and other like bodies and theories. As an economist I worry about the real damage that can be done by bad legislation based on bad science. Think twice, act once, this should make everyone stop and think. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Hooper Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Yes, yes, and yes, there are real environmental issues we can agree upon that need and deserve addressing; CO2 is NOT one of them. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:42 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate Exactly what I have thought and said for a long time. There can be disastrous consequence for real people if ill-conceived taxes are passed to reverse a natural change. How many people are struggling to survive right now? How many families are fighting to pay for college educations? How many brilliant young minds will be stuck behind a shop counter because the families need their income? Stick some big taxes on gasoline in the interest of supposedly slowing climate change, and we all pay much more for everything -- and that will hurt. Is it worthwhile to risk a deep worldwide depression on some idea that may be based on faulty assumptions? Where is the cost-benefit analysis of fighting climate change? We have many terrible environmental problems that deserve our attention much more than tilting at the climate windmill. Much of the Pacific is becoming a wasteland because of hazardous plastic waste that has accumulated there: let's clean it up. Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> wrote: From: Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 9:38 AM This is something I have written about numerous times, even once or twice on this board usually to rolling eyes and usual "Climate Change Denier" comments. I've always wondered why if the debate is over and science is in agreement why it is necessary to ridicule those who disagree? The debate is not over and I believe ultimately a lot of people will have to answer for years of bad science, lies and in some cases outright fraud. This is just a new crack in a crumbling argument. Bad scientific claims repeated over and over is still bad science, it doesn't matter how many people want to believe it. Science should be determined by facts not public opinion and politicians looking for a new career and source of income. The science and data is simply not lining up to support the claims of the IPCC and other like bodies and theories. As an economist I worry about the real damage that can be done by bad legislation based on bad science. Think twice, act once, this should make everyone stop and think. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Hooper Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Those costs are disputed, all fossil fuel is a limited resource, we will need alternate renewable energy. All statements about how long these fuels last are based on current consumption, consumption will increase. The conversion may take longer than these resources will last, we should begin. CO2 aside, it is related to these other environmental issues.
With no action it is exactly the children of today that will pay the price, in dollars and sense. We have already passed on a huge debt to the next generation. For what constructive purpose? Yes, yes, and yes, there are real environmental issues we can agree upon
that need and deserve addressing; CO2 is NOT one of them.
Bob Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:42 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Exactly what I have thought and said for a long time. There can be disastrous consequence for real people if ill-conceived taxes are passed to reverse a natural change. How many people are struggling to survive right now? How many families are fighting to pay for college educations? How many brilliant young minds will be stuck behind a shop counter because the families need their income? Stick some big taxes on gasoline in the interest of supposedly slowing climate change, and we all pay much more for everything -- and that will hurt. Is it worthwhile to risk a deep worldwide depression on some idea that may be based on faulty assumptions? Where is the cost-benefit analysis of fighting climate change? We have many terrible environmental problems that deserve our attention much more than tilting at the climate windmill. Much of the Pacific is becoming a wasteland because of hazardous plastic waste that has accumulated there: let's clean it up. Thanks, Joe
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> wrote:
From: Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 9:38 AM
This is something I have written about numerous times, even once or twice on this board usually to rolling eyes and usual "Climate Change Denier" comments. I've always wondered why if the debate is over and science is in agreement why it is necessary to ridicule those who disagree? The debate is not over and I believe ultimately a lot of people will have to answer for years of bad science, lies and in some cases outright fraud. This is just a new crack in a crumbling argument.
Bad scientific claims repeated over and over is still bad science, it doesn't matter how many people want to believe it. Science should be determined by facts not public opinion and politicians looking for a new career and source of income. The science and data is simply not lining up to support the claims of the IPCC and other like bodies and theories.
As an economist I worry about the real damage that can be done by bad legislation based on bad science. Think twice, act once, this should make everyone stop and think.
Bob Taylor
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Hooper Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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For what constructive purpose? None, other then the growth in power and influence of government. BT -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:39 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Those costs are disputed, all fossil fuel is a limited resource, we will need alternate renewable energy. All statements about how long these fuels last are based on current consumption, consumption will increase. The conversion may take longer than these resources will last, we should begin. CO2 aside, it is related to these other environmental issues.
With no action it is exactly the children of today that will pay the price, in dollars and sense. We have already passed on a huge debt to the next generation. For what constructive purpose?
Hello All, I would like to point out that those exact economic arguments were in play when the U.S. was discussing the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and just about every other piece of environmental legislation in recent history. Looking back, they seem like empty arguments. None of those pieces of legislation have resulted in the collapse of our economy. I, for one, am really glad that people acted then and I hope they act responsibly now. I agree that other environmental issues may suffer if too much money is spent on any single problem. I continually hear the argument that the amount of greenhouse gases that come from human activities is small when compared to natural sources (volcanoes etc.), and that is true, but a small amount can make a HUGE difference. Consider a flood... (my own field of expertise) the last 5% of water in the flood may be small when compared to the total, but it can make the difference between a harmless flood and one that overtops a dike and causes devastation. By the same token, I think that the "extra" that we are adding might make the difference for melting the ice caps (for example), and it makes good sense to take reasonable actions to head off a possible catastrophe. I don't really see a down side to reducing emissions responsibly... do you? I am also amazed at the somewhat venomous tone that frequently comes from those that think the whole global warming thing is a "conspiracy". I have known and worked with many climate researchers, including several at NOAA in Boulder, Colorado. I know for a fact that they are not involved in any conspiracy. They are truly brilliant people doing first-rate research. I am a published scientist, but I am not really qualified to argue for or against human-induced climate change. But, I can speak to the integrity of many excellent researchers who are far better qualified to comment than most on this list (or any other list for that matter), although everyone is entitled to an opinion. We have been enjoying a period of relatively low solar activity. It will be interesting to see what happens when things fire up a little. That is my 2-cents worth. Cheers, Tyler _____________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:42 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate Exactly what I have thought and said for a long time. There can be disastrous consequence for real people if ill-conceived taxes are passed to reverse a natural change. How many people are struggling to survive right now? How many families are fighting to pay for college educations? How many brilliant young minds will be stuck behind a shop counter because the families need their income? Stick some big taxes on gasoline in the interest of supposedly slowing climate change, and we all pay much more for everything -- and that will hurt. Is it worthwhile to risk a deep worldwide depression on some idea that may be based on faulty assumptions? Where is the cost-benefit analysis of fighting climate change? We have many terrible environmental problems that deserve our attention much more than tilting at the climate windmill. Much of the Pacific is becoming a wasteland because of hazardous plastic waste that has accumulated there: let's clean it up. Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> wrote: From: Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 9:38 AM This is something I have written about numerous times, even once or twice on this board usually to rolling eyes and usual "Climate Change Denier" comments. I've always wondered why if the debate is over and science is in agreement why it is necessary to ridicule those who disagree? The debate is not over and I believe ultimately a lot of people will have to answer for years of bad science, lies and in some cases outright fraud. This is just a new crack in a crumbling argument. Bad scientific claims repeated over and over is still bad science, it doesn't matter how many people want to believe it. Science should be determined by facts not public opinion and politicians looking for a new career and source of income. The science and data is simply not lining up to support the claims of the IPCC and other like bodies and theories. As an economist I worry about the real damage that can be done by bad legislation based on bad science. Think twice, act once, this should make everyone stop and think. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Hooper Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Tyler, I have immense respect for you and I don't doubt the integrity of scientists you know. But the fact remains that the computer models that are the basis for the entire movement to blame humans for global warming are hideously botched. The institution that gave credibility to that model and the position blaming humans is sullied beyond repair. We need to understand the dynamics of the hysteria, and I think it includes faked results, bad data, a messed-up computer code, intimidation and suppression of information, and apparently some outright fabrication to make the predictions come out the way these people think they are supposed to. It's not as simple as saying this guy or that institution has integrity. What is important here is the analysis of the research and the validity of the numbers the analyzers are cranking into their crazy computer code. The East Anglians are the basis for almost all of the predictions, the basis for the Copenhagen Report, the basis for the EPA's position. If their work is faked, we need to know that and the reevaluate. We can't simply say, well, Bob Jones is a good guy and conducts good research. We have to ask, who is using the research data to get results? Please, please read the CBS correspondent's blog and then tell me if you think everything is just fine with East Anglia. Tell me if they had any reason to hide information. The blog is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/taking_liberties/entry5761180.shtml Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Tyler Allred <tylerallred@earthlink.net> wrote: From: Tyler Allred <tylerallred@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 3:12 PM Hello All, I would like to point out that those exact economic arguments were in play when the U.S. was discussing the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, and just about every other piece of environmental legislation in recent history. Looking back, they seem like empty arguments. None of those pieces of legislation have resulted in the collapse of our economy. I, for one, am really glad that people acted then and I hope they act responsibly now. I agree that other environmental issues may suffer if too much money is spent on any single problem. I continually hear the argument that the amount of greenhouse gases that come from human activities is small when compared to natural sources (volcanoes etc.), and that is true, but a small amount can make a HUGE difference. Consider a flood... (my own field of expertise) the last 5% of water in the flood may be small when compared to the total, but it can make the difference between a harmless flood and one that overtops a dike and causes devastation. By the same token, I think that the "extra" that we are adding might make the difference for melting the ice caps (for example), and it makes good sense to take reasonable actions to head off a possible catastrophe. I don't really see a down side to reducing emissions responsibly... do you? I am also amazed at the somewhat venomous tone that frequently comes from those that think the whole global warming thing is a "conspiracy". I have known and worked with many climate researchers, including several at NOAA in Boulder, Colorado. I know for a fact that they are not involved in any conspiracy. They are truly brilliant people doing first-rate research. I am a published scientist, but I am not really qualified to argue for or against human-induced climate change. But, I can speak to the integrity of many excellent researchers who are far better qualified to comment than most on this list (or any other list for that matter), although everyone is entitled to an opinion. We have been enjoying a period of relatively low solar activity. It will be interesting to see what happens when things fire up a little. That is my 2-cents worth. Cheers, Tyler _____________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:42 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate Exactly what I have thought and said for a long time. There can be disastrous consequence for real people if ill-conceived taxes are passed to reverse a natural change. How many people are struggling to survive right now? How many families are fighting to pay for college educations? How many brilliant young minds will be stuck behind a shop counter because the families need their income? Stick some big taxes on gasoline in the interest of supposedly slowing climate change, and we all pay much more for everything -- and that will hurt. Is it worthwhile to risk a deep worldwide depression on some idea that may be based on faulty assumptions? Where is the cost-benefit analysis of fighting climate change? We have many terrible environmental problems that deserve our attention much more than tilting at the climate windmill. Much of the Pacific is becoming a wasteland because of hazardous plastic waste that has accumulated there: let's clean it up. Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> wrote: From: Robert Taylor <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "'Utah Astronomy'" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 9:38 AM This is something I have written about numerous times, even once or twice on this board usually to rolling eyes and usual "Climate Change Denier" comments. I've always wondered why if the debate is over and science is in agreement why it is necessary to ridicule those who disagree? The debate is not over and I believe ultimately a lot of people will have to answer for years of bad science, lies and in some cases outright fraud. This is just a new crack in a crumbling argument. Bad scientific claims repeated over and over is still bad science, it doesn't matter how many people want to believe it. Science should be determined by facts not public opinion and politicians looking for a new career and source of income. The science and data is simply not lining up to support the claims of the IPCC and other like bodies and theories. As an economist I worry about the real damage that can be done by bad legislation based on bad science. Think twice, act once, this should make everyone stop and think. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Hooper Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Yes, thanks again Joe, it is a credibility issue. Most scientists are good, fair, honest and apply good scientific method but there are those who do not and use science as a tool for things other than understanding. I know this for a fact as I have worked with one. I would argue again to let the good ones do there job, the truth will set us all free. BT -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+rob.taylor=digis.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+rob.taylor=digis.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 3:25 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate Tyler, I have immense respect for you and I don't doubt the integrity of scientists you know. But the fact remains that the computer models that are the basis for the entire movement to blame humans for global warming are hideously botched. The institution that gave credibility to that model and the position blaming humans is sullied beyond repair. We need to understand the dynamics of the hysteria, and I think it includes faked results, bad data, a messed-up computer code, intimidation and suppression of information, and apparently some outright fabrication to make the predictions come out the way these people think they are supposed to. It's not as simple as saying this guy or that institution has integrity. What is important here is the analysis of the research and the validity of the numbers the analyzers are cranking into their crazy computer code. The East Anglians are the basis for almost all of the predictions, the basis for the Copenhagen Report, the basis for the EPA's position. If their work is faked, we need to know that and the reevaluate. We can't simply say, well, Bob Jones is a good guy and conducts good research. We have to ask, who is using the research data to get results? Please, please read the CBS correspondent's blog and then tell me if you think everything is just fine with East Anglia. Tell me if they had any reason to hide information. The blog is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/taking_liberties/entry5761180.shtml Thanks, Joe
Apparently Mann and others cooked the books. The Russians hacked into one of their global warming sites and found several embarrassing emails by Mann and others about the need to fix or hid data that did not agree with their position. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Robert Taylor Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:38 AM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate This is something I have written about numerous times, even once or twice on this board usually to rolling eyes and usual "Climate Change Denier" comments. I've always wondered why if the debate is over and science is in agreement why it is necessary to ridicule those who disagree? The debate is not over and I believe ultimately a lot of people will have to answer for years of bad science, lies and in some cases outright fraud. This is just a new crack in a crumbling argument. Bad scientific claims repeated over and over is still bad science, it doesn't matter how many people want to believe it. Science should be determined by facts not public opinion and politicians looking for a new career and source of income. The science and data is simply not lining up to support the claims of the IPCC and other like bodies and theories. As an economist I worry about the real damage that can be done by bad legislation based on bad science. Think twice, act once, this should make everyone stop and think. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dale Hooper Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:36 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind of post is "okay" here. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud. _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age. So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes. I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change." On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space. It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it. The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University
of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system. My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking. Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University
of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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And in 1491 the Earth was flat, it was a fact. Everyone believed it and the debate was over. And Yes, I believe Al Gore made a movie about that as well. The list of scientific "facts" that turned out to be false is long but distinguished. BT -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Steve FISHER Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:49 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system. My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking. Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University
of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
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Believing the earth was flat is more like global warming denial.
And in 1491 the Earth was flat, it was a fact. Everyone believed it and
the debate was over. And Yes, I believe Al Gore made a movie about that as well.
The list of scientific "facts" that turned out to be false is long but distinguished.
BT
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Steve FISHER Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:49 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's
University of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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So maybe there were true Global Flatness Deniers? Possibly Earth centered Deniers as well and let's not forget all those Steady State Deniers. I'm off the rest of the day, it's been fun. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. BT -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 3:53 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Believing the earth was flat is more like global warming denial.
And in 1491 the Earth was flat, it was a fact. Everyone believed it and
the debate was over. And Yes, I believe Al Gore made a movie about that as well.
The list of scientific "facts" that turned out to be false is long but distinguished.
BT
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Steve FISHER Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:49 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm
l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's
University of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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Anybody got some popcorn? Dan Sent from my BlackBerry. Please excuse any mispelings or typos. -----Original Message----- From: "Robert Taylor" <Rob.Taylor@digis.net> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:01:50 To: 'Utah Astronomy'<utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate So maybe there were true Global Flatness Deniers? Possibly Earth centered Deniers as well and let's not forget all those Steady State Deniers. I'm off the rest of the day, it's been fun. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. BT -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 3:53 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Believing the earth was flat is more like global warming denial.
And in 1491 the Earth was flat, it was a fact. Everyone believed it and
the debate was over. And Yes, I believe Al Gore made a movie about that as well.
The list of scientific "facts" that turned out to be false is long but distinguished.
BT
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Steve FISHER Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:49 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm
l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's
University of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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The only question worth answering in this thread. Hopefully we'll see a fist-fight. Or at least some rotten fruit get thrown. That will settle it once and for all. On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Daniel Holmes <danielh@holmesonics.com>wrote:
Anybody got some popcorn?
It is a mystery to me why the claim is made that CO2 causes warming. It is an odorless, colorless gas. How could it hinder light radiating back into space? And do any studies support that idea? I suspect that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that plants thrive on CO2, as they would in a greenhouse. We know plants absorb CO2 and release oxygen. So what's so bad about CO2? -- Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote: From: Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:49 PM We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system. My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking. Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University
of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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CO2 is a trace gas making up about .38% (that's 38 parts per 10,000) of our atmosphere, man is responsible for less that 5% of that. Yet the alarmists would have you believe that CO2 is dominating our climate. In fact it not and is not even a very important green house gas on our planet. Water vapor is the real Climate gas on Earth, not CO2 which does not make up enough of our atmosphere to much of anything. It is great for plants and is general is good for vegetation. More CO2 would help green-up the Earth and as some scientists believe help combat desertification. Again I'm not arguing for more CO2 emissions, I'm just saying more CO2 is not the end of the world and would in fact have some benefits. The Upper atmosphere claims you read and hear about are based on old and bad data, assumptions were made were there was not good data, the assumptions were wrong. It is still quoted by believers because it seems like real science. More recent data shows that CO2 is not having the effects originally thought. However because so much the Pro Man Made theories are based on the upper atmosphere data they will fight fiercely and defend that data. It's a classic case of Garbage-In, Garbage-Out. BT -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 1:46 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate It is a mystery to me why the claim is made that CO2 causes warming. It is an odorless, colorless gas. How could it hinder light radiating back into space? And do any studies support that idea? I suspect that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that plants thrive on CO2, as they would in a greenhouse. We know plants absorb CO2 and release oxygen. So what's so bad about CO2? -- Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote: From: Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:49 PM We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system. My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking. Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University
of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
Bob: Why do you hate polar bears so much? Steve
From: Rob.Taylor@digis.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:26:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
CO2 is a trace gas making up about .38% (that's 38 parts per 10,000) of our atmosphere, man is responsible for less that 5% of that. Yet the alarmists would have you believe that CO2 is dominating our climate. In fact it not and is not even a very important green house gas on our planet. Water vapor is the real Climate gas on Earth, not CO2 which does not make up enough of our atmosphere to much of anything.
It is great for plants and is general is good for vegetation. More CO2 would help green-up the Earth and as some scientists believe help combat desertification. Again I'm not arguing for more CO2 emissions, I'm just saying more CO2 is not the end of the world and would in fact have some benefits.
The Upper atmosphere claims you read and hear about are based on old and bad data, assumptions were made were there was not good data, the assumptions were wrong. It is still quoted by believers because it seems like real science. More recent data shows that CO2 is not having the effects originally thought. However because so much the Pro Man Made theories are based on the upper atmosphere data they will fight fiercely and defend that data. It's a classic case of Garbage-In, Garbage-Out.
BT
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 1:46 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
It is a mystery to me why the claim is made that CO2 causes warming. It is an odorless, colorless gas. How could it hinder light radiating back into space? And do any studies support that idea? I suspect that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that plants thrive on CO2, as they would in a greenhouse. We know plants absorb CO2 and release oxygen. So what's so bad about CO2? -- Joe
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
From: Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:49 PM
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University
of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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I love Polar Bears - boiled, sometimes sautéed with onions. BT -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Steve FISHER Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 2:42 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate Bob: Why do you hate polar bears so much? Steve
From: Rob.Taylor@digis.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:26:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
CO2 is a trace gas making up about .38% (that's 38 parts per 10,000) of our atmosphere, man is responsible for less that 5% of that. Yet the alarmists would have you believe that CO2 is dominating our climate. In fact it not and is not even a very important green house gas on our planet. Water vapor is the real Climate gas on Earth, not CO2 which does not make up enough of our atmosphere to much of anything.
It is great for plants and is general is good for vegetation. More CO2 would help green-up the Earth and as some scientists believe help combat desertification. Again I'm not arguing for more CO2 emissions, I'm just saying more CO2 is not the end of the world and would in fact have some benefits.
The Upper atmosphere claims you read and hear about are based on old and bad data, assumptions were made were there was not good data, the assumptions were wrong. It is still quoted by believers because it seems like real science. More recent data shows that CO2 is not having the effects originally thought. However because so much the Pro Man Made theories are based on the upper atmosphere data they will fight fiercely and defend that data. It's a classic case of Garbage-In, Garbage-Out.
BT
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 1:46 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
It is a mystery to me why the claim is made that CO2 causes warming. It is an odorless, colorless gas. How could it hinder light radiating back into space? And do any studies support that idea? I suspect that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that plants thrive on CO2, as they would in a greenhouse. We know plants absorb CO2 and release oxygen. So what's so bad about CO2? -- Joe
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
From: Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:49 PM
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm
l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's
University of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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Garbage in Garbage out, amen
CO2 is a trace gas making up about .38% (that's 38 parts per 10,000) of
our atmosphere, man is responsible for less that 5% of that. Yet the alarmists would have you believe that CO2 is dominating our climate. In fact it not and is not even a very important green house gas on our planet. Water vapor is the real Climate gas on Earth, not CO2 which does not make up enough of our atmosphere to much of anything.
It is great for plants and is general is good for vegetation. More CO2 would help green-up the Earth and as some scientists believe help combat desertification. Again I'm not arguing for more CO2 emissions, I'm just saying more CO2 is not the end of the world and would in fact have some benefits.
The Upper atmosphere claims you read and hear about are based on old and bad data, assumptions were made were there was not good data, the assumptions were wrong. It is still quoted by believers because it seems like real science. More recent data shows that CO2 is not having the effects originally thought. However because so much the Pro Man Made theories are based on the upper atmosphere data they will fight fiercely and defend that data. It's a classic case of Garbage-In, Garbage-Out.
BT
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 1:46 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
It is a mystery to me why the claim is made that CO2 causes warming. It is an odorless, colorless gas. How could it hinder light radiating back into space? And do any studies support that idea? I suspect that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that plants thrive on CO2, as they would in a greenhouse. We know plants absorb CO2 and release oxygen. So what's so bad about CO2? -- Joe
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
From: Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:49 PM
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's
University of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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CO2 is a poison to humans and a waste product. Increase CO2 causes increased respiration until it becomes to high then it becomes a narcotic and you stop breathing. This can happen with pretty very small increases in blood CO2 (in chronic disease), I have witnessed this many times.
I don't know how to answer you Joe, greenhouse gasses are not visible. How does our atmosphere and magnetosphere protect us from solar radiation? We can't see it so it clearly can have no effect. Yet it does. A greenhouse traps radiation to make it warmer than the outside temperature it has nothing to do with CO2, that remains the same in and out of the greenhouse. Greenhouse gases have always referred to gases that hinder the infrared radiation from radiating back into space. These gases absorb the long wave lengths, I would be interested in a source that refutes that. It was taught in my Biology classes. BTW, The perceived economics are not a scientific argument. Al Gore has not made hundreds of millions of dollars on this. The Economic motive is much bigger for the oil and gas industry, who ironically would likely not see a big drop in demand, just not big increases. It is a mystery to me why the claim is made that CO2 causes warming. It is
an odorless, colorless gas. How could it hinder light radiating back into space? And do any studies support that idea? I suspect that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that plants thrive on CO2, as they would in a greenhouse. We know plants absorb CO2 and release oxygen. So what's so bad about CO2? -- Joe
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
From: Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:49 PM
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's
University of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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I mean, what's the harm of a gas in the atmosphere in such minute, trace amounts -- a gas that is absolutely essential to plants? I just don't see something at such small concentrations causing a climate shift. How do you explain the supposedly vast impact of something that amounts to only 387 parts per million? How does an increase in that tiny level just block out reflected sunlight so effectively that all ice on Earth melts? It boggles my mind, anyway. Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> wrote: From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 4:19 PM
CO2 is a poison to humans and a waste product. Increase CO2 causes increased respiration until it becomes to high then it becomes a narcotic and you stop breathing. This can happen with pretty very small increases in blood CO2 (in chronic disease), I have witnessed this many times.
I don't know how to answer you Joe, greenhouse gasses are not visible. How does our atmosphere and magnetosphere protect us from solar radiation? We can't see it so it clearly can have no effect. Yet it does. A greenhouse traps radiation to make it warmer than the outside temperature it has nothing to do with CO2, that remains the same in and out of the greenhouse. Greenhouse gases have always referred to gases that hinder the infrared radiation from radiating back into space. These gases absorb the long wave lengths, I would be interested in a source that refutes that. It was taught in my Biology classes. BTW, The perceived economics are not a scientific argument. Al Gore has not made hundreds of millions of dollars on this. The Economic motive is much bigger for the oil and gas industry, who ironically would likely not see a big drop in demand, just not big increases. It is a mystery to me why the claim is made that CO2 causes warming. It is
an odorless, colorless gas. How could it hinder light radiating back into space? And do any studies support that idea? I suspect that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that plants thrive on CO2, as they would in a greenhouse. We know plants absorb CO2 and release oxygen. So what's so bad about CO2? -- Joe
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
From: Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:49 PM
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's
University of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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Howdy folks, We just had a resignation from the list. That happens every time climate change gets discussed here. What's say we take climate change off this list and move it to one of the nearly 600 Climate Change Google lists. Clear skies, patrick the UA co-moderator
I agree, and I apologize for stoking the flames. I thought it was an important issue but now I realize it's too distracting from our real purpose, the enjoyment and study of astronomy. This is an awful consequence and I feel bad about it. -- Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> wrote: From: Patrick Wiggins <paw@wirelessbeehive.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT-ClimateGate (Time to wrap up?) To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 7:41 PM Howdy folks, We just had a resignation from the list. That happens every time climate change gets discussed here. What's say we take climate change off this list and move it to one of the nearly 600 Climate Change Google lists. Clear skies, patrick the UA co-moderator _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
CO2 is not the only greenhouse gas, nor the only one human activity increases. Man's impact is not only production of CO2, but also the destruction of CO2 sinks (forests).
I mean, what's the harm of a gas in the atmosphere in such minute, trace
amounts -- a gas that is absolutely essential to plants? I just don't see something at such small concentrations causing a climate shift. How do you explain the supposedly vast impact of something that amounts to only 387 parts per million? How does an increase in that tiny level just block out reflected sunlight so effectively that all ice on Earth melts? It boggles my mind, anyway. Thanks, Joe
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> wrote:
From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 4:19 PM
CO2 is a poison to humans and a waste product. Increase CO2 causes increased respiration until it becomes to high then it becomes a narcotic and you stop breathing. This can happen with pretty very small increases in blood CO2 (in chronic disease), I have witnessed this many times.
I don't know how to answer you Joe, greenhouse gasses are not visible. How does our atmosphere and magnetosphere protect us from solar radiation? We can't see it so it clearly can have no effect. Yet it does. A greenhouse traps radiation to make it warmer than the outside temperature it has nothing to do with CO2, that remains the same in and out of the greenhouse. Greenhouse gases have always referred to gases that hinder the infrared radiation from radiating back into space. These gases absorb the long wave lengths, I would be interested in a source that refutes that. It was taught in my Biology classes.
BTW, The perceived economics are not a scientific argument. Al Gore has not made hundreds of millions of dollars on this. The Economic motive is much bigger for the oil and gas industry, who ironically would likely not see a big drop in demand, just not big increases.
It is a mystery to me why the claim is made that CO2 causes warming. It is
an odorless, colorless gas. How could it hinder light radiating back into space? And do any studies support that idea? I suspect that CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that plants thrive on CO2, as they would in a greenhouse. We know plants absorb CO2 and release oxygen. So what's so bad about CO2? -- Joe
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
From: Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 12:49 PM
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
>Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind > of post is "okay" here. > > http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm... > > Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of > East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific > fraud. > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >
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No, we had the same science. The science you are citing has nothing to do with global warming.
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science
taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's
University of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
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My apologies. Once agian a quick google or bing search for global cooling in the 60's and 70's will reveal a wealth of "proven scientific evidence" concerning the return of the Ice age. Steve
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:43:14 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
No, we had the same science. The science you are citing has nothing to do with global warming.
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science
taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because
of
some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
>Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind > of post is "okay" here. > > http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm... > > Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of > East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific > fraud. > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com >
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Of course that was when particulate pollution was the concern. As, I recall corrective action resulted in abatement of that. With, unabated pollution perhaps they would have been right. We will never know. Also, the clean air act detractors claimed the regulations would ruin the economy, it did not.
Nothing new in this discussion, just more desperation.
My apologies.
Once agian a quick google or bing search for global cooling in the 60's and 70's will reveal a wealth of "proven scientific evidence" concerning the return of the Ice age.
Steve
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:43:14 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
No, we had the same science. The science you are citing has nothing to do with global warming.
We had different first grade science studies. My first grade science
taught me that there are probably "millions" of galaxies that exist in the universe. There might even be a solar system in one of them that might be capable of supporting life. Further, there were nine planets in the solar system.
My father was taught in his first grade class that the universe is stagnant and not expanding or shrinking.
Which first grade science exactly are you referring to?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:54:52 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting
because of
some kind of cycle?
> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 > From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net > To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate > > >Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question > remains why is the ice melting? > > > > My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind > > of post is "okay" here. > > > > http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm... > > > > Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of > > East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific > > fraud. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Utah-Astronomy mailing list > Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php > Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
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I didn't say I didn't believe that we are adding to the issue of global warming. I believe we are but I also believe that we are in a normal cycle of warming and more importantly according to the ice cores taken from Greenland and Antarctica that we are closer to a global cool down. We may enhance that by shutting down the conveyor of the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic and usher in a major cool down. The Earth is not friendly during these cool downs, ice builds, glaciers build, deserts increase in size and there is far less arable land to grow on. Also, I would prefer to see an alternative to fossil fuels because they are limited in the amount, their use is increasing with China and India increasing their use and I don't like being linked to the Middle East or to Russia for oil. If Brazil can make major gains in an alternative fuel, so can we, and we should. Bottom line, I restate my personal belief that we should be responding to global climate change because the geological record of the earth teaches us that it is coming, be it from global warming caused by humans or be it through a natural process(es). That is my point. On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 11:54 AM, <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> wrote:
My understanding is they are seeing events in Antarctica that have not occured in several hundreds of thousands of years. IE, it is beyond the natural cycle. Local cooling and warming are not inconsistent with global warming, we are in the early stages and it is much more apparent in the upper atmosphere. Where greenhouse gasses will have the greatest effect. A few frauds do not change this.
That man's activity has increased CO2 levels seems certain, and again it is grade school science that this hinders natural energy from being radiated back into space.
It is a given that many have exaggerated, both by the deniers and supporters. Still more science supports it than denys it.
The earth has always had periods of warming and cooling, and it is my
understanding that over the last 160,000 years the earth has mainly been under the control of ice except for two warming periods known as the Eemian Interglacial and the Present Interglacial. These larger cycles can be broken into periods of short cycles lasting around 400 years and then broken down to 40 years period. We see this in recent history with the Medieval Warming period and the Little Ice Age (400 year cycle example). Our current broad cycle, the Present Interglacial is about 18000 years into it so we can estimate that at sometime in the next 2000 years our planet should cool and possibly enter a new Ice Age.
So in my own opinion I believe we are seeing a period of warming and that at some point we will see (or our descendants will see) a cooling period. Bottom line, the climate of this planet changes for a variety of reasons (humans being a very small percentage of that) and we need to be aware that of its own accord it changes and we should be ready to adapt to those changes.
I like this quote the best: "Since the climate has always been changing and will likely continue of its own accord to change in the future, instead of crippling the U.S. economy in order to achieve small reductions in global warming effects due to manmade additions to atmospheric carbon dioxide, our resources may be better spent making preparations to adapt to global cooling and global warming, and the inevitable consequences of fluctuating ocean levels, temperatures, and precipitation that accompany climatic change."
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Steve FISHER <sfisher01@msn.com> wrote:
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University
of
East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
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Perhaps, but is that consistent with the notion we are cooling? What the article showed was a person trying to make his observations match others, he should be defrocked.
I just wish we could get accurate temps form weatherman. I looked up a forecast and the current temp is warmer than the projected high.
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
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The temps have been fairly flat and even since about 1998, we may be headed into global cooling in which case we may see some ice sheets increase in size and mass but as much as we would like to believe otherwise, there's not much we can do about it. That said making radical claims and wild assumptions based on less than 30 years a data (yes, that's what we basing the conclusions about the Arctic on) is incredibly foolish. The standard answer to your question about the difficulties about predicting the weather next week or even tomorrow would normally yield a lecture from the pro Man Made warming debaters about the difference between weather and climate. Weather can also be very localized within a few city blocks in many cases. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 11:24 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Perhaps, but is that consistent with the notion we are cooling? What the article showed was a person trying to make his observations match others, he should be defrocked.
I just wish we could get accurate temps form weatherman. I looked up a forecast and the current temp is warmer than the projected high.
I'm just guessing but is it possible that it may be melting because of some kind of cycle?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:02:22 -0700 From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with
scientific
fraud.
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If nobody gets mad about it, I'll give my own little theory: the last ice age is still ending. It's been ending for thousands of years and we have reached a tipping point where the remnants are disappearing pretty quickly. That makes more sense to me than the idea that the -- at most -- 2 degree change in temperature over the last century can melt all that ice. Could it really have a huge effect if the average temperature is minus 20 instead of minus 22? Or whatever the actual average is -- does a couple of degrees change matter? Or what other theory makes sense to you? Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> wrote: From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 10:02 AM
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm...
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
I essentially agree with you, it's a cycle. Our overall temperature is only "Average" for planet Earth as far as we can tell. It has been a lot hotter and a lot colder in the past. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:36 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate If nobody gets mad about it, I'll give my own little theory: the last ice age is still ending. It's been ending for thousands of years and we have reached a tipping point where the remnants are disappearing pretty quickly. That makes more sense to me than the idea that the -- at most -- 2 degree change in temperature over the last century can melt all that ice. Could it really have a huge effect if the average temperature is minus 20 instead of minus 22? Or whatever the actual average is -- does a couple of degrees change matter? Or what other theory makes sense to you? Thanks, Joe --- On Wed, 11/25/09, erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> wrote: From: erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net <erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 10:02 AM
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
It's very simple. In some places it is melting and others it is not. For example the ice in the Himalayas is growing and inland Greenland (not the coast so much) it is thinning some what. We hear a lot about Greenland and nothing about the Himalayas, why is that? The Arctic in recent years has receded (although it is advancing again) and in the Antarctic the ice is getting thicker (except in one area). This article proves nothing other than there are some scientists in England that have engaged in bad science and unethical behavior. It is important that people understand that scientists are human and make mistakes, sometimes suffer from bad judgment and are sometime very wrong and most importantly you can't believe everything you hear and read even when it is repeated over and over. Lenin understood the value of repetition and used it great effect, it's a very old political tactic, i.e.: "The debate is over", "all scientists agree", etc. These are buzz phrases of politics, not science. Also as I have said on this board beliefs on this issue are going to be in-line with your politics, if you lean left politically you will believe in the man caused theories, if you lean right you will be more skeptical, in essence for many people it is akin a religious issue, based on faith (because you really don't know or understand the science so you follow those that do claim to know it and you take their position as your own), faith is the basis of religion, not science and I don't like to get into religious arguments as you can never change anyone's religious beliefs by arguments, this is why I don't do the "Link" thing, it's pointless. You will believe what you want to believe facts be damned. No one has said the earth is not warming; it is the cause of warming that is the question. I do have serious issues with some of the methodology used to determine the rate of warming but in general I acknowledge that we have been in warming trend for about 160 years with some ups and downs. I simply don't except that the warming is caused by CO2 emissions. I believe it is natural cycle that has been occurring through-out the planet's history and is more closely related to the Sun then to CO2. If you track temperatures you find it very closely correlates to the Sun's energy output, but correlation is not causality and science needs to continue to study this. On the other hand CO2 is a naturally occurring gas and life on Earth could not exist with out it, in fact more CO2 would not be a bad thing (this is not an argument for more emissions, it's an argument to calm down), it is certainly not a pollutant regardless of what the EPA says. I suspect we are many years away from the debate truly being over, if ever. In the mean time it is important that we don't do anything stupid like pass a Cap and Trade bill that has more to do with making money, growing government and controlling industry then it does with climate. Here the damage will be real, the benefits imaginary. It would like to see this issue de-politicized. Politics is about persuasion, science should be about facts and testable theories and it is only through money that these two disciplines have anything in common. The fact that politics is so heavily enmeshed in this issue should tell you a lot about it. Bob Taylor -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@TheBlueZone.net Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:02 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] OT - ClimateGate
Finally, the article that proves it is all a hoax. I guess the question remains why is the ice melting?
My understanding from past list administrator statements is that this kind
of post is "okay" here.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.htm l
Hacked emails from the Climatic Research Unit (Britain's University of East Anglia) appear to implicate leading climatologists with scientific fraud.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com
participants (12)
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Chuck Hards -
Dale Hooper -
Daniel Holmes -
Don J. Colton -
erikhansen＠TheBlueZone.net -
Jay Eads -
Joe Bauman -
Josephine Grahn -
Patrick Wiggins -
Robert Taylor -
Steve FISHER -
Tyler Allred