Re: [Utah-astronomy] Center of the universeCenter of the universe
You are on that point as is everything else. ------------------------------ On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 6:50 AM MST Stephen Peterson wrote:
If the universe originated in the 'Big Bang', that is, expanding more or less uniformly from a single point wouldn't that point be the center? Steve Peterson, Hurricane _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Joe is essentially correct, in as much as that is what it looks like to a being anywhere in the universe. The internet has been down at work all day and I just can't type more than a sentence or two on a smartphone. I'm at home now, so here goes. The mistake people make is imagining the Big Bang as an explosion hurling matter outward into a greater volume of space. That's not a good analogy. The entire universe began expanding- all of space itself. There was no greater volume of space for the universe to expand into after the Big Bang, at least in the four dimensions we live in and are familiar with. 4 dimensions = X, Y, Z axes plus time. The entire universe began as a very small volume, a sub-atomic-sized volume, and quickly expanded into something close to the volume it is today. That rapid expansion is called Inflation. After Inflation, the expansion rate scaled back quite a bit, but was still accellerating and continues to accellerate today. A being living in a galaxy 13 billion light-years away looks in the direction of earth and sees the Milky Way as a dim, distant little galaxy hurtling away from him at a substantial percentage of the speed of light. It's the same thing we see when we look in the direction of that being's galaxy. We both surmise that the universe is rushing away from us, and we are at the center. That's the observational result of the fabric of space itself expanding, not galaxies rushing outward from a common center as if they were sitting on a big hand grenade when it went off. I'm sure there are others on this list who can explain it perhaps better than I. On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy < utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
You are on that point as is everything else.
------------------------------ On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 6:50 AM MST Stephen Peterson wrote:
If the universe originated in the 'Big Bang', that is, expanding more or less uniformly from a single point wouldn't that point be the center? Steve Peterson, Hurricane _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Greetings, I realize that what I am looking for does not exist as far as most, if not all, present scientists. However may I remind all of you that if you look at the history of science, there were many issues considered absolutely true by all (or most) scientists, and eventually it turned out to be absolutely untrue. If I may be so bold, I would say that do not believe everything others believe. As a scientist attempt to prove everything to yourself, by yourself. Of course it is your choice. Regards: Zoltan Nagy. Web page: http://knowledge.electrochem.org/estir/editor.htm ************************************************ Zoltan Nagy, Visiting Scholar Department of Chemistry, Campus Box 3290 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3290, USA Phone: (919) 272-2228 E-mail: nagyz@email.unc.edu or nagyz@live.unc.edu http://electrochem.cwru.edu/portal/ ************************************************ ________________________________________ From: Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:18 PM To: Joe Bauman; Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Center of the universeCenter of the universe Joe is essentially correct, in as much as that is what it looks like to a being anywhere in the universe. The internet has been down at work all day and I just can't type more than a sentence or two on a smartphone. I'm at home now, so here goes. The mistake people make is imagining the Big Bang as an explosion hurling matter outward into a greater volume of space. That's not a good analogy. The entire universe began expanding- all of space itself. There was no greater volume of space for the universe to expand into after the Big Bang, at least in the four dimensions we live in and are familiar with. 4 dimensions = X, Y, Z axes plus time. The entire universe began as a very small volume, a sub-atomic-sized volume, and quickly expanded into something close to the volume it is today. That rapid expansion is called Inflation. After Inflation, the expansion rate scaled back quite a bit, but was still accellerating and continues to accellerate today. A being living in a galaxy 13 billion light-years away looks in the direction of earth and sees the Milky Way as a dim, distant little galaxy hurtling away from him at a substantial percentage of the speed of light. It's the same thing we see when we look in the direction of that being's galaxy. We both surmise that the universe is rushing away from us, and we are at the center. That's the observational result of the fabric of space itself expanding, not galaxies rushing outward from a common center as if they were sitting on a big hand grenade when it went off. I'm sure there are others on this list who can explain it perhaps better than I. On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy < utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
You are on that point as is everything else.
------------------------------ On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 6:50 AM MST Stephen Peterson wrote:
If the universe originated in the 'Big Bang', that is, expanding more or less uniformly from a single point wouldn't that point be the center? Steve Peterson, Hurricane _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Zoltan, as someone familiar with science, you must realize that while we are free to believe anything we want to, without testable evidence it is just an idea. Proof must be proof to all, not just ourselves. The history of science also has many circumstances where issues considered absolutely false by the status quo turned out to be true. Continental drift and plate tectonics come to mind. There are many others. On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Nagy, Zoltan <nagyz@live.unc.edu> wrote:
Greetings,
I realize that what I am looking for does not exist as far as most, if not all, present scientists.
However may I remind all of you that if you look at the history of science, there were many issues considered absolutely true by all (or most) scientists, and eventually it turned out to be absolutely untrue. If I may be so bold, I would say that do not believe everything others believe. As a scientist attempt to prove everything to yourself, by yourself. Of course it is your choice.
There is no tunneling. We simply don't have a valid model. The only way the balloon universe works is if 'our' universe is only the thickness of the balloon material and we are not aware of the rest of it. On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Zoltan, as someone familiar with science, you must realize that while we are free to believe anything we want to, without testable evidence it is just an idea. Proof must be proof to all, not just ourselves.
The history of science also has many circumstances where issues considered absolutely false by the status quo turned out to be true. Continental drift and plate tectonics come to mind. There are many others.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Nagy, Zoltan <nagyz@live.unc.edu> wrote:
Greetings,
I realize that what I am looking for does not exist as far as most, if not all, present scientists.
However may I remind all of you that if you look at the history of science, there were many issues considered absolutely true by all (or most) scientists, and eventually it turned out to be absolutely untrue. If I may be so bold, I would say that do not believe everything others believe. As a scientist attempt to prove everything to yourself, by yourself. Of course it is your choice.
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-- Siegfried
It's not a model, it's an analogy minus a dimension- or ten. Yes, it has problems, but it illustrates the concept of an inflating universe with no center of expansion. Good enough for the chalkboard. I'm assigning you to come up with a better teaching model. ;-) On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> wrote:
There is no tunneling. We simply don't have a valid model. The only way the balloon universe works is if 'our' universe is only the thickness of the balloon material and we are not aware of the rest of it.
Does the term "observable universe" fit in here anywhere? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Siegfried Jachmann" <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 8:22:26 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Center of the universeCenter of the universe There is no tunneling. We simply don't have a valid model. The only way the balloon universe works is if 'our' universe is only the thickness of the balloon material and we are not aware of the rest of it. On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Zoltan, as someone familiar with science, you must realize that while we are free to believe anything we want to, without testable evidence it is just an idea. Proof must be proof to all, not just ourselves.
The history of science also has many circumstances where issues considered absolutely false by the status quo turned out to be true. Continental drift and plate tectonics come to mind. There are many others.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Nagy, Zoltan <nagyz@live.unc.edu> wrote:
Greetings,
I realize that what I am looking for does not exist as far as most, if not all, present scientists.
However may I remind all of you that if you look at the history of science, there were many issues considered absolutely true by all (or most) scientists, and eventually it turned out to be absolutely untrue. If I may be so bold, I would say that do not believe everything others believe. As a scientist attempt to prove everything to yourself, by yourself. Of course it is your choice.
_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Nope. On Jan 16, 2015 10:17 PM, "Joan Carman" <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Does the term "observable universe" fit in here anywhere?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Siegfried Jachmann" <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 8:22:26 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Center of the universeCenter of the universe
There is no tunneling. We simply don't have a valid model. The only way the balloon universe works is if 'our' universe is only the thickness of the balloon material and we are not aware of the rest of it.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Zoltan, as someone familiar with science, you must realize that while we are free to believe anything we want to, without testable evidence it is just an idea. Proof must be proof to all, not just ourselves.
The history of science also has many circumstances where issues considered absolutely false by the status quo turned out to be true. Continental drift and plate tectonics come to mind. There are many others.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Nagy, Zoltan <nagyz@live.unc.edu> wrote:
Greetings,
I realize that what I am looking for does not exist as far as most, if not all, present scientists.
However may I remind all of you that if you look at the history of science, there were many issues considered absolutely true by all (or most) scientists, and eventually it turned out to be absolutely untrue. If I may be so bold, I would say that do not believe everything others believe. As a scientist attempt to prove everything to yourself, by yourself. Of course it is your choice.
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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This is the type of weather that favors armchair astronomy. There are a lot of smart people who have spent a lot of time trying to wrap their brains around questions such as these. Some of them occasionally write books to help the rest of us get a glimpse of what's happening in their field. I recommend Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos". and a cozy recliner with jazz or classical music in the background. It's a great way to spend some time until the weather allows us to observe the sky again. But be prepared to learn something new because this stuff takes more than just 'common sense". DT From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Center of the universeCenter of the universe Nope. On Jan 16, 2015 10:17 PM, "Joan Carman" <jcarman6@q.com> wrote:
Does the term "observable universe" fit in here anywhere?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Siegfried Jachmann" <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 8:22:26 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Center of the universeCenter of the universe
There is no tunneling. We simply don't have a valid model. The only way the balloon universe works is if 'our' universe is only the thickness of the balloon material and we are not aware of the rest of it.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
Zoltan, as someone familiar with science, you must realize that while we are free to believe anything we want to, without testable evidence it is just an idea. Proof must be proof to all, not just ourselves.
The history of science also has many circumstances where issues considered absolutely false by the status quo turned out to be true. Continental drift and plate tectonics come to mind. There are many others.
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Nagy, Zoltan <nagyz@live.unc.edu> wrote:
Greetings,
I realize that what I am looking for does not exist as far as most, if not all, present scientists.
However may I remind all of you that if you look at the history of science, there were many issues considered absolutely true by all (or most) scientists, and eventually it turned out to be absolutely untrue. If I may be so bold, I would say that do not believe everything others believe. As a scientist attempt to prove everything to yourself, by yourself. Of course it is your choice.
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-- Siegfried _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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From here: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html -------------- The balloon analogy is very good but needs to be understood properly—otherwise it can cause more confusion. As Hoyle said, "There are several important respects in which it is definitely misleading." It is important to appreciate that three-dimensional space is to be compared with the two-dimensional surface of the balloon. The surface is homogeneous with no point that should be picked out as the centre. The centre of the balloon itself is not on the surface, and should not be thought of as the centre of the universe. -------------- It was weird to envision the balloon as the universe, it tripped me up for a while. But when you think of only the surface of the balloon as the universe, it's a little easier. Thanks, Dan -- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
On Jan 16, 2015, at 11:07 AM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
You are on that point as is everything else.
------------------------------ On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 6:50 AM MST Stephen Peterson wrote:
If the universe originated in the 'Big Bang', that is, expanding more or less uniformly from a single point wouldn't that point be the center? Steve Peterson, Hurricane _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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Then why aren't we seeing a huge void? On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Daniel Holmes <danielh@holmesonics.com> wrote:
From here: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
-------------- The balloon analogy is very good but needs to be understood properly—otherwise it can cause more confusion. As Hoyle said, "There are several important respects in which it is definitely misleading." It is important to appreciate that three-dimensional space is to be compared with the two-dimensional surface of the balloon. The surface is homogeneous with no point that should be picked out as the centre. The centre of the balloon itself is not on the surface, and should not be thought of as the centre of the universe. --------------
It was weird to envision the balloon as the universe, it tripped me up for a while. But when you think of only the surface of the balloon as the universe, it's a little easier.
Thanks, Dan
-- Daniel Holmes, danielh@holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin
On Jan 16, 2015, at 11:07 AM, Joe Bauman via Utah-Astronomy < utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
You are on that point as is everything else.
------------------------------ On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 6:50 AM MST Stephen Peterson wrote:
If the universe originated in the 'Big Bang', that is, expanding more or less uniformly from a single point wouldn't that point be the center? Steve Peterson, Hurricane _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy
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-- Siegfried
The center of the balloon universe is analagous to higher dimensions in our universe. Tunneling through the center of the balloon universe to a galaxy on the other side is equivalent to a wormhole in our universe. And folks, Siegfried is pulling our legs. He gets all of this very well. ;-) On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:07 PM, Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> wrote:
Then why aren't we seeing a huge void?
participants (7)
-
Chuck Hards -
Daniel Holmes -
daniel turner -
Joan Carman -
Joe Bauman -
Nagy, Zoltan -
Siegfried Jachmann