Re: [Utah-astronomy] Two pictographs of a three-tailed comet from Dead Horse Point area
Quite interesting, Dave. I don't interpret them as comets, though. I visited and photographed a petroglyph of apparently the same personage at the Head of Sinbad in the San Rafael Swell and it seemed obvious that he was commanding a cloud to rain -- the streaks were rain. Or so I thought. Thanks, Joe ------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 3:07 PM MDT Dave Gary wrote:
Hey, speaking of comets, take a look at these photos I took a few years back when I was wandering around the Dead Horse Point area. The first set is from 7-Mile Wash, the second from Hell Roaring Canyon. Something different, but astronomy-related. I propose it’s two different depictions of the same shaman and the same comet, but from two different artists, either from the same group or two different groups.
Also, notice the solitary big-horn-sheep pictograph from the Hell Roaring Canyon set appears to be pregnant. Was this the artist’s way of saying this was a spring-time comet? Something fun to think about (you can make up any story you like) and it has an astronomy plot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78046474@N06/sets
Dave
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Joe, I don’t know for sure. Looks more like a comet than clouds to me. That’s the point, we’ll never know. There’s no ethnographic analogy for this type of communication unless the symbols are very obvious (priests on horses and such…the depiction on Newspaper Rock in Canyonlands). Also, did the clouds you saw in San Rafael look like these depictions? Was there three lines? Maybe this is not a unique motif, but I have never seen it before. The one at 7-Mile Wash above the guy’s head looks to have a distinct coma. But, then again, it does have what appears to be rain drops falling from the lower tail now that you mention it. Like I said, it could be what we think or not, we’ll never know for sure. That’s the fun of rock art in my opinion, you can make up whatever story floats your boat. Who can prove you wrong? Despite claims to the contrary, I’ve never read of a “Champollion” of rock art. Yes, I’ve read Levan Martineau. In my opinion, his books are his hooey about rock art, nothing more. Dave On Sep 10, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quite interesting, Dave. I don't interpret them as comets, though. I visited and photographed a petroglyph of apparently the same personage at the Head of Sinbad in the San Rafael Swell and it seemed obvious that he was commanding a cloud to rain -- the streaks were rain. Or so I thought. Thanks, Joe
------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 3:07 PM MDT Dave Gary wrote:
Hey, speaking of comets, take a look at these photos I took a few years back when I was wandering around the Dead Horse Point area. The first set is from 7-Mile Wash, the second from Hell Roaring Canyon. Something different, but astronomy-related. I propose it’s two different depictions of the same shaman and the same comet, but from two different artists, either from the same group or two different groups.
Also, notice the solitary big-horn-sheep pictograph from the Hell Roaring Canyon set appears to be pregnant. Was this the artist’s way of saying this was a spring-time comet? Something fun to think about (you can make up any story you like) and it has an astronomy plot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78046474@N06/sets
Dave
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Hi Dave and group, If I can find my photo someday I'll have to post it -- it's a really nice view. Meanwhile, here's a site with a picture of it though it's pretty small. -- Joe http://www.emerycounty.com/travel/san-rafael-swell-head-of-sinbad.html ________________________________ From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Two pictographs of a three-tailed comet from Dead Horse Point area Joe, I don’t know for sure. Looks more like a comet than clouds to me. That’s the point, we’ll never know. There’s no ethnographic analogy for this type of communication unless the symbols are very obvious (priests on horses and such…the depiction on Newspaper Rock in Canyonlands). Also, did the clouds you saw in San Rafael look like these depictions? Was there three lines? Maybe this is not a unique motif, but I have never seen it before. The one at 7-Mile Wash above the guy’s head looks to have a distinct coma. But, then again, it does have what appears to be rain drops falling from the lower tail now that you mention it. Like I said, it could be what we think or not, we’ll never know for sure. That’s the fun of rock art in my opinion, you can make up whatever story floats your boat. Who can prove you wrong? Despite claims to the contrary, I’ve never read of a “Champollion” of rock art. Yes, I’ve read Levan Martineau. In my opinion, his books are his hooey about rock art, nothing more. Dave On Sep 10, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quite interesting, Dave. I don't interpret them as comets, though. I visited and photographed a petroglyph of apparently the same personage at the Head of Sinbad in the San Rafael Swell and it seemed obvious that he was commanding a cloud to rain -- the streaks were rain. Or so I thought. Thanks, Joe
------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 3:07 PM MDT Dave Gary wrote:
Hey, speaking of comets, take a look at these photos I took a few years back when I was wandering around the Dead Horse Point area. The first set is from 7-Mile Wash, the second from Hell Roaring Canyon. Something different, but astronomy-related. I propose it’s two different depictions of the same shaman and the same comet, but from two different artists, either from the same group or two different groups.
Also, notice the solitary big-horn-sheep pictograph from the Hell Roaring Canyon set appears to be pregnant. Was this the artist’s way of saying this was a spring-time comet? Something fun to think about (you can make up any story you like) and it has an astronomy plot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78046474@N06/sets
Dave
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Joe, I don’t think there is a “scientific” opinion on rock art. I think I read a description once in a book by Polly Schaafsma that described the pictograph in Hell Roaring Canyon as a possible comet. It is called the “yellow comet pictograph”. When I saw the pictograph in 7-Mile Wash years later I thought it may be related. Maybe not. However, both have three distinct “tails”. I would like to see your picture if you can find it. Believe me, I know what it’s like to sift through old photos. I have an old photo from the area around Moab showing the burial site of a Fremont chief. It’s a fairly compelling photograph. I have never seen it in any pictograph book. Would you like to take a look and see what you think? I found this site back in the 70’s while chukar hunting. How’s that for serendipity? I told a rock art aficionado about it and he took some photos to post on the web. However, he swore to keep the location a secret. It’s a pristine site, no graffiti. Dave On Sep 10, 2013, at 11:52 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dave and group, If I can find my photo someday I'll have to post it -- it's a really nice view. Meanwhile, here's a site with a picture of it though it's pretty small. -- Joe
http://www.emerycounty.com/travel/san-rafael-swell-head-of-sinbad.html
________________________________ From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Two pictographs of a three-tailed comet from Dead Horse Point area
Joe,
I don’t know for sure. Looks more like a comet than clouds to me. That’s the point, we’ll never know. There’s no ethnographic analogy for this type of communication unless the symbols are very obvious (priests on horses and such…the depiction on Newspaper Rock in Canyonlands). Also, did the clouds you saw in San Rafael look like these depictions? Was there three lines? Maybe this is not a unique motif, but I have never seen it before. The one at 7-Mile Wash above the guy’s head looks to have a distinct coma. But, then again, it does have what appears to be rain drops falling from the lower tail now that you mention it. Like I said, it could be what we think or not, we’ll never know for sure. That’s the fun of rock art in my opinion, you can make up whatever story floats your boat. Who can prove you wrong? Despite claims to the contrary, I’ve never read of a “Champollion” of rock art. Yes, I’ve read Levan Martineau. In my opinion, his books are his hooey about rock art, nothing more.
Dave
On Sep 10, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quite interesting, Dave. I don't interpret them as comets, though. I visited and photographed a petroglyph of apparently the same personage at the Head of Sinbad in the San Rafael Swell and it seemed obvious that he was commanding a cloud to rain -- the streaks were rain. Or so I thought. Thanks, Joe
------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 3:07 PM MDT Dave Gary wrote:
Hey, speaking of comets, take a look at these photos I took a few years back when I was wandering around the Dead Horse Point area. The first set is from 7-Mile Wash, the second from Hell Roaring Canyon. Something different, but astronomy-related. I propose it’s two different depictions of the same shaman and the same comet, but from two different artists, either from the same group or two different groups.
Also, notice the solitary big-horn-sheep pictograph from the Hell Roaring Canyon set appears to be pregnant. Was this the artist’s way of saying this was a spring-time comet? Something fun to think about (you can make up any story you like) and it has an astronomy plot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78046474@N06/sets
Dave
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I'd love to see them, Dave. Thanks, Joe ________________________________ From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Two pictographs of a three-tailed comet from Dead Horse Point area Joe, I don’t think there is a “scientific” opinion on rock art. I think I read a description once in a book by Polly Schaafsma that described the pictograph in Hell Roaring Canyon as a possible comet. It is called the “yellow comet pictograph”. When I saw the pictograph in 7-Mile Wash years later I thought it may be related. Maybe not. However, both have three distinct “tails”. I would like to see your picture if you can find it. Believe me, I know what it’s like to sift through old photos. I have an old photo from the area around Moab showing the burial site of a Fremont chief. It’s a fairly compelling photograph. I have never seen it in any pictograph book. Would you like to take a look and see what you think? I found this site back in the 70’s while chukar hunting. How’s that for serendipity? I told a rock art aficionado about it and he took some photos to post on the web. However, he swore to keep the location a secret. It’s a pristine site, no graffiti. Dave On Sep 10, 2013, at 11:52 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dave and group, If I can find my photo someday I'll have to post it -- it's a really nice view. Meanwhile, here's a site with a picture of it though it's pretty small. -- Joe
http://www.emerycounty.com/travel/san-rafael-swell-head-of-sinbad.html
________________________________ From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Two pictographs of a three-tailed comet from Dead Horse Point area
Joe,
I don’t know for sure. Looks more like a comet than clouds to me. That’s the point, we’ll never know. There’s no ethnographic analogy for this type of communication unless the symbols are very obvious (priests on horses and such…the depiction on Newspaper Rock in Canyonlands). Also, did the clouds you saw in San Rafael look like these depictions? Was there three lines? Maybe this is not a unique motif, but I have never seen it before. The one at 7-Mile Wash above the guy’s head looks to have a distinct coma. But, then again, it does have what appears to be rain drops falling from the lower tail now that you mention it. Like I said, it could be what we think or not, we’ll never know for sure. That’s the fun of rock art in my opinion, you can make up whatever story floats your boat. Who can prove you wrong? Despite claims to the contrary, I’ve never read of a “Champollion” of rock art. Yes, I’ve read Levan Martineau. In my opinion, his books are his hooey about rock art, nothing more.
Dave
On Sep 10, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quite interesting, Dave. I don't interpret them as comets, though. I visited and photographed a petroglyph of apparently the same personage at the Head of Sinbad in the San Rafael Swell and it seemed obvious that he was commanding a cloud to rain -- the streaks were rain. Or so I thought. Thanks, Joe
------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 3:07 PM MDT Dave Gary wrote:
Hey, speaking of comets, take a look at these photos I took a few years back when I was wandering around the Dead Horse Point area. The first set is from 7-Mile Wash, the second from Hell Roaring Canyon. Something different, but astronomy-related. I propose it’s two different depictions of the same shaman and the same comet, but from two different artists, either from the same group or two different groups.
Also, notice the solitary big-horn-sheep pictograph from the Hell Roaring Canyon set appears to be pregnant. Was this the artist’s way of saying this was a spring-time comet? Something fun to think about (you can make up any story you like) and it has an astronomy plot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78046474@N06/sets
Dave
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Is anyone here still in contact with Von Del Chamberlain? He's a noted authority on these pictographs. He would be about 79 or 80 by now.
PS, my TOTALLY unscientific reading of it was that a supplicant was asking the rain god for rain, and he was making it rain. -- Joe ________________________________ From: Dave Gary <davegary@me.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Two pictographs of a three-tailed comet from Dead Horse Point area Joe, I don’t know for sure. Looks more like a comet than clouds to me. That’s the point, we’ll never know. There’s no ethnographic analogy for this type of communication unless the symbols are very obvious (priests on horses and such…the depiction on Newspaper Rock in Canyonlands). Also, did the clouds you saw in San Rafael look like these depictions? Was there three lines? Maybe this is not a unique motif, but I have never seen it before. The one at 7-Mile Wash above the guy’s head looks to have a distinct coma. But, then again, it does have what appears to be rain drops falling from the lower tail now that you mention it. Like I said, it could be what we think or not, we’ll never know for sure. That’s the fun of rock art in my opinion, you can make up whatever story floats your boat. Who can prove you wrong? Despite claims to the contrary, I’ve never read of a “Champollion” of rock art. Yes, I’ve read Levan Martineau. In my opinion, his books are his hooey about rock art, nothing more. Dave On Sep 10, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quite interesting, Dave. I don't interpret them as comets, though. I visited and photographed a petroglyph of apparently the same personage at the Head of Sinbad in the San Rafael Swell and it seemed obvious that he was commanding a cloud to rain -- the streaks were rain. Or so I thought. Thanks, Joe
------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 3:07 PM MDT Dave Gary wrote:
Hey, speaking of comets, take a look at these photos I took a few years back when I was wandering around the Dead Horse Point area. The first set is from 7-Mile Wash, the second from Hell Roaring Canyon. Something different, but astronomy-related. I propose it’s two different depictions of the same shaman and the same comet, but from two different artists, either from the same group or two different groups.
Also, notice the solitary big-horn-sheep pictograph from the Hell Roaring Canyon set appears to be pregnant. Was this the artist’s way of saying this was a spring-time comet? Something fun to think about (you can make up any story you like) and it has an astronomy plot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78046474@N06/sets
Dave
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participants (3)
-
Chuck Hards -
Dave Gary -
Joe Bauman