I'm reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Somewhere in there he talked about a proposed idea that Venus was actually a comet ejected from Jupiter. It zipped past the Earth and caused Noah's flood. Then it zipped back again and caused the Earth to stop spinning. Then it zipped back again and started it spinning again 3 days later before it settled in to an orbit around the sun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_in_Collision] The illustrious Mr. Sagan wrote in his book (and I apologize profusely for paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me), that he was disappointed in his fellow astronomers & scientists for ridiculing the Venus as Comet idea rather than examining it on its merits. I think his point was that any time we are willing to throw out an idea, no matter how crazy it first seems, we risk delaying or ultimately preventing ourselves from discovering truth. In short, humility is the path to truth. We were expecting "X", and so anything that doesn't match "X" must be wrong.... right? The idea that being wrong is beneficial is a surprising facet of astronomy. So many astronomers have been wrong. Platonic solid orbits. Irrigation canals on Mars. Tunnels on the Moon. Swamps on Venus. Yet the truth is eventually discovered through our persistence and resolve to remain honest with oursevles and others. We discover that we are wrong and then we go through the often difficult process of accepting it. Only then can we finally call it a discovery. It is incredibly humbling and makes those moments of awe possible. I spent 60 minutes the other night hunting for M81 and M82. I couldn't find them. One of you folks could probably just randomly whip your telescope around and it would naturally fall on the object you desire. I failed. That's humbling. Of course failure is no reason to give up. Eventually M81 and M82 will find their way in to my view. It will take persistence, patience, and time. When I do find them I will have the satisfaction of having my own personal discovery. I will also be sure to never misplace them again, little buggers! It is in sharing those moments of discovery and triumph that bring me the greatest joy. The best part of astronomy (for me) is watching children look through a telescope for the first time. They usually have no preconceived notions of what they should be seeing. They are, in essence, honestly and perfectively humble. Their minds are ripe for discovery with none of the proclivities toward projection adults often have. When they see something as simple as the Moon's surface for the first time they don't have to be wrong. It is pure discovery, and pure awe. That's when you hear the "wow!" we all love to year. The universe becomes discovered over and over again as each of us travel through our own personal journey amongst the stars. Having now learned this, how can I _not_ share it with as many people as who will accept it? That's why I enjoy astronomy. Why do you? Clear skies. -Ryan
I remember things just a bit differently. It was Immanuel Velikovsky that proposed the Venus as a comet theory in his 1950 book "Worlds in Collision". Carl Sagan criticized him severely for his thoughts - even after he had passed on. It was a pretty bitter exchange. I met Carl Sagan one time. He was pretty opinionated and proud of his theories - but then, who isn't? He had almost no knowledge of the night sky and even said so. His contributions were not in the visual astronomy arena. Astronomers in error? BAH! But remember LGM stars. On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:24 PM, Ryan Simpkins <astro@ryansimpkins.com> wrote: I'm reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Somewhere in there he talked about a proposed idea that Venus was actually a comet ejected from Jupiter. It zipped past the Earth and caused Noah's flood. Then it zipped back again and caused the Earth to stop spinning. Then it zipped back again and started it spinning again 3 days later before it settled in to an orbit around the sun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_in_Collision] The illustrious Mr. Sagan wrote in his book (and I apologize profusely for paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me), that he was disappointed in his fellow astronomers & scientists for ridiculing the Venus as Comet idea rather than examining it on its merits. I think his point was that any time we are willing to throw out an idea, no matter how crazy it first seems, we risk delaying or ultimately preventing ourselves from discovering truth. In short, humility is the path to truth. We were expecting "X", and so anything that doesn't match "X" must be wrong.... right? The idea that being wrong is beneficial is a surprising facet of astronomy. So many astronomers have been wrong. Platonic solid orbits. Irrigation canals on Mars. Tunnels on the Moon. Swamps on Venus. Yet the truth is eventually discovered through our persistence and resolve to remain honest with oursevles and others. We discover that we are wrong and then we go through the often difficult process of accepting it. Only then can we finally call it a discovery. It is incredibly humbling and makes those moments of awe possible. I spent 60 minutes the other night hunting for M81 and M82. I couldn't find them. One of you folks could probably just randomly whip your telescope around and it would naturally fall on the object you desire. I failed. That's humbling. Of course failure is no reason to give up. Eventually M81 and M82 will find their way in to my view. It will take persistence, patience, and time. When I do find them I will have the satisfaction of having my own personal discovery. I will also be sure to never misplace them again, little buggers! It is in sharing those moments of discovery and triumph that bring me the greatest joy. The best part of astronomy (for me) is watching children look through a telescope for the first time. They usually have no preconceived notions of what they should be seeing. They are, in essence, honestly and perfectively humble. Their minds are ripe for discovery with none of the proclivities toward projection adults often have. When they see something as simple as the Moon's surface for the first time they don't have to be wrong. It is pure discovery, and pure awe. That's when you hear the "wow!" we all love to year. The universe becomes discovered over and over again as each of us travel through our own personal journey amongst the stars. Having now learned this, how can I _not_ share it with as many people as who will accept it? That's why I enjoy astronomy. Why do you? Clear skies. -Ryan _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Criticized is too mild for Carl Sagan's relationship with Velikovsky. Is was more ridicule than criticism. On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:39 PM, Brent Watson via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: I remember things just a bit differently. It was Immanuel Velikovsky that proposed the Venus as a comet theory in his 1950 book "Worlds in Collision". Carl Sagan criticized him severely for his thoughts - even after he had passed on. It was a pretty bitter exchange. I met Carl Sagan one time. He was pretty opinionated and proud of his theories - but then, who isn't? He had almost no knowledge of the night sky and even said so. His contributions were not in the visual astronomy arena. Astronomers in error? BAH! But remember LGM stars. On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:24 PM, Ryan Simpkins <astro@ryansimpkins.com> wrote: I'm reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Somewhere in there he talked about a proposed idea that Venus was actually a comet ejected from Jupiter. It zipped past the Earth and caused Noah's flood. Then it zipped back again and caused the Earth to stop spinning. Then it zipped back again and started it spinning again 3 days later before it settled in to an orbit around the sun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_in_Collision] The illustrious Mr. Sagan wrote in his book (and I apologize profusely for paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me), that he was disappointed in his fellow astronomers & scientists for ridiculing the Venus as Comet idea rather than examining it on its merits. I think his point was that any time we are willing to throw out an idea, no matter how crazy it first seems, we risk delaying or ultimately preventing ourselves from discovering truth. In short, humility is the path to truth. We were expecting "X", and so anything that doesn't match "X" must be wrong.... right? The idea that being wrong is beneficial is a surprising facet of astronomy. So many astronomers have been wrong. Platonic solid orbits. Irrigation canals on Mars. Tunnels on the Moon. Swamps on Venus. Yet the truth is eventually discovered through our persistence and resolve to remain honest with oursevles and others. We discover that we are wrong and then we go through the often difficult process of accepting it. Only then can we finally call it a discovery. It is incredibly humbling and makes those moments of awe possible. I spent 60 minutes the other night hunting for M81 and M82. I couldn't find them. One of you folks could probably just randomly whip your telescope around and it would naturally fall on the object you desire. I failed. That's humbling. Of course failure is no reason to give up. Eventually M81 and M82 will find their way in to my view. It will take persistence, patience, and time. When I do find them I will have the satisfaction of having my own personal discovery. I will also be sure to never misplace them again, little buggers! It is in sharing those moments of discovery and triumph that bring me the greatest joy. The best part of astronomy (for me) is watching children look through a telescope for the first time. They usually have no preconceived notions of what they should be seeing. They are, in essence, honestly and perfectively humble. Their minds are ripe for discovery with none of the proclivities toward projection adults often have. When they see something as simple as the Moon's surface for the first time they don't have to be wrong. It is pure discovery, and pure awe. That's when you hear the "wow!" we all love to year. The universe becomes discovered over and over again as each of us travel through our own personal journey amongst the stars. Having now learned this, how can I _not_ share it with as many people as who will accept it? That's why I enjoy astronomy. Why do you? Clear skies. -Ryan _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
Brent, thank you for the reminder. I read that work circa '51 or '52 while in jr college in CA. Honestly, can't remember much about it except that the math did not seem to work out right. 73 Sent from my iPad
On Jun 4, 2014, at 3:37 PM, Brent Watson via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I remember things just a bit differently. It was Immanuel Velikovsky that proposed the Venus as a comet theory in his 1950 book "Worlds in Collision". Carl Sagan criticized him severely for his thoughts - even after he had passed on. It was a pretty bitter exchange. I met Carl Sagan one time. He was pretty opinionated and proud of his theories - but then, who isn't? He had almost no knowledge of the night sky and even said so. His contributions were not in the visual astronomy arena.
Astronomers in error? BAH! But remember LGM stars.
On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:24 PM, Ryan Simpkins <astro@ryansimpkins.com> wrote:
I'm reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Somewhere in there he talked about a proposed idea that Venus was actually a comet ejected from Jupiter. It zipped past the Earth and caused Noah's flood. Then it zipped back again and caused the Earth to stop spinning. Then it zipped back again and started it spinning again 3 days later before it settled in to an orbit around the sun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_in_Collision]
The illustrious Mr. Sagan wrote in his book (and I apologize profusely for paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me), that he was disappointed in his fellow astronomers & scientists for ridiculing the Venus as Comet idea rather than examining it on its merits. I think his point was that any time we are willing to throw out an idea, no matter how crazy it first seems, we risk delaying or ultimately preventing ourselves from discovering truth. In short, humility is the path to truth. We were expecting "X", and so anything that doesn't match "X" must be wrong.... right?
The idea that being wrong is beneficial is a surprising facet of astronomy. So many astronomers have been wrong. Platonic solid orbits. Irrigation canals on Mars. Tunnels on the Moon. Swamps on Venus. Yet the truth is eventually discovered through our persistence and resolve to remain honest with oursevles and others. We discover that we are wrong and then we go through the often difficult process of accepting it. Only then can we finally call it a discovery. It is incredibly humbling and makes those moments of awe possible.
I spent 60 minutes the other night hunting for M81 and M82. I couldn't find them. One of you folks could probably just randomly whip your telescope around and it would naturally fall on the object you desire. I failed. That's humbling. Of course failure is no reason to give up. Eventually M81 and M82 will find their way in to my view. It will take persistence, patience, and time. When I do find them I will have the satisfaction of having my own personal discovery. I will also be sure to never misplace them again, little buggers!
It is in sharing those moments of discovery and triumph that bring me the greatest joy. The best part of astronomy (for me) is watching children look through a telescope for the first time. They usually have no preconceived notions of what they should be seeing. They are, in essence, honestly and perfectively humble. Their minds are ripe for discovery with none of the proclivities toward projection adults often have. When they see something as simple as the Moon's surface for the first time they don't have to be wrong. It is pure discovery, and pure awe. That's when you hear the "wow!" we all love to year.
The universe becomes discovered over and over again as each of us travel through our own personal journey amongst the stars. Having now learned this, how can I _not_ share it with as many people as who will accept it?
That's why I enjoy astronomy. Why do you?
Clear skies.
-Ryan
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A very interesting book on the "Velikovskian" chapter in American history is "The Pseudo-Science Wars". Harlow Shapley was one of Velikovsky's strongest critics. Rightly so. In the '50s it was common knowledge that Venus was a planet. Velikovsky's published timeframe does nothing to alter this fact (confirmed observation). What most scientists of this time (the '50s) were worried about was that Macmillan (a respected scientific publisher) was willing to publish Velikovsky's work as genuinely scientific. I have a 1950 Macmillan copy of Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision". To say that it is a "delirium tremens" of astronomic "scholarship" is to be kind. However, Velikovsky still has a following among the public. Imagine that? Patrick Moore once had a conversation with Velikovsky about his work. He remarked that Velikovsky's grasp of astronomic facts was akin to eating soup with a fork. Dave Sent from my iPad
On Jun 4, 2014, at 1:37 PM, Brent Watson via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I remember things just a bit differently. It was Immanuel Velikovsky that proposed the Venus as a comet theory in his 1950 book "Worlds in Collision". Carl Sagan criticized him severely for his thoughts - even after he had passed on. It was a pretty bitter exchange. I met Carl Sagan one time. He was pretty opinionated and proud of his theories - but then, who isn't? He had almost no knowledge of the night sky and even said so. His contributions were not in the visual astronomy arena.
Astronomers in error? BAH! But remember LGM stars.
On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:24 PM, Ryan Simpkins <astro@ryansimpkins.com> wrote:
I'm reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Somewhere in there he talked about a proposed idea that Venus was actually a comet ejected from Jupiter. It zipped past the Earth and caused Noah's flood. Then it zipped back again and caused the Earth to stop spinning. Then it zipped back again and started it spinning again 3 days later before it settled in to an orbit around the sun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_in_Collision]
The illustrious Mr. Sagan wrote in his book (and I apologize profusely for paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me), that he was disappointed in his fellow astronomers & scientists for ridiculing the Venus as Comet idea rather than examining it on its merits. I think his point was that any time we are willing to throw out an idea, no matter how crazy it first seems, we risk delaying or ultimately preventing ourselves from discovering truth. In short, humility is the path to truth. We were expecting "X", and so anything that doesn't match "X" must be wrong.... right?
The idea that being wrong is beneficial is a surprising facet of astronomy. So many astronomers have been wrong. Platonic solid orbits. Irrigation canals on Mars. Tunnels on the Moon. Swamps on Venus. Yet the truth is eventually discovered through our persistence and resolve to remain honest with oursevles and others. We discover that we are wrong and then we go through the often difficult process of accepting it. Only then can we finally call it a discovery. It is incredibly humbling and makes those moments of awe possible.
I spent 60 minutes the other night hunting for M81 and M82. I couldn't find them. One of you folks could probably just randomly whip your telescope around and it would naturally fall on the object you desire. I failed. That's humbling. Of course failure is no reason to give up. Eventually M81 and M82 will find their way in to my view. It will take persistence, patience, and time. When I do find them I will have the satisfaction of having my own personal discovery. I will also be sure to never misplace them again, little buggers!
It is in sharing those moments of discovery and triumph that bring me the greatest joy. The best part of astronomy (for me) is watching children look through a telescope for the first time. They usually have no preconceived notions of what they should be seeing. They are, in essence, honestly and perfectively humble. Their minds are ripe for discovery with none of the proclivities toward projection adults often have. When they see something as simple as the Moon's surface for the first time they don't have to be wrong. It is pure discovery, and pure awe. That's when you hear the "wow!" we all love to year.
The universe becomes discovered over and over again as each of us travel through our own personal journey amongst the stars. Having now learned this, how can I _not_ share it with as many people as who will accept it?
That's why I enjoy astronomy. Why do you?
Clear skies.
-Ryan
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Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com
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Seems like I remember that Sagan eventually softened just a bit saying he still thought Velikovsky was wrong but that he (Sagan) should not have pushed so hard to get the work banned as opposed to showing how bad the work was. patrick On 04 Jun 2014, at 13:37, Brent Watson via Utah-Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I remember things just a bit differently. It was Immanuel Velikovsky that proposed the Venus as a comet theory in his 1950 book "Worlds in Collision". Carl Sagan criticized him severely for his thoughts - even after he had passed on. It was a pretty bitter exchange. I met Carl Sagan one time. He was pretty opinionated and proud of his theories - but then, who isn't? He had almost no knowledge of the night sky and even said so. His contributions were not in the visual astronomy arena.
Astronomers in error? BAH! But remember LGM stars.
Ryan, Thank you for this thoughtful piece. I believe most of us can fully relate to what you've written here. For me personally, I love the contemplation that photons from a distant DSO are ending their million+ year journey on my very own retina, that that is both sobering and delightful. Under dark skies, M81 and M82 are easy targets in binoculars -- keep trying (using low power and dark skies) -- the reward is worth the effort. /R ________________________________ From: Ryan Simpkins <astro@ryansimpkins.com> To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:23 PM Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Why do you enjoy astronomy? I'm reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Somewhere in there he talked about a proposed idea that Venus was actually a comet ejected from Jupiter. It zipped past the Earth and caused Noah's flood. Then it zipped back again and caused the Earth to stop spinning. Then it zipped back again and started it spinning again 3 days later before it settled in to an orbit around the sun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_in_Collision] The illustrious Mr. Sagan wrote in his book (and I apologize profusely for paraphrasing as I don't have the book with me), that he was disappointed in his fellow astronomers & scientists for ridiculing the Venus as Comet idea rather than examining it on its merits. I think his point was that any time we are willing to throw out an idea, no matter how crazy it first seems, we risk delaying or ultimately preventing ourselves from discovering truth. In short, humility is the path to truth. We were expecting "X", and so anything that doesn't match "X" must be wrong.... right? The idea that being wrong is beneficial is a surprising facet of astronomy. So many astronomers have been wrong. Platonic solid orbits. Irrigation canals on Mars. Tunnels on the Moon. Swamps on Venus. Yet the truth is eventually discovered through our persistence and resolve to remain honest with oursevles and others. We discover that we are wrong and then we go through the often difficult process of accepting it. Only then can we finally call it a discovery. It is incredibly humbling and makes those moments of awe possible. I spent 60 minutes the other night hunting for M81 and M82. I couldn't find them. One of you folks could probably just randomly whip your telescope around and it would naturally fall on the object you desire. I failed. That's humbling. Of course failure is no reason to give up. Eventually M81 and M82 will find their way in to my view. It will take persistence, patience, and time. When I do find them I will have the satisfaction of having my own personal discovery. I will also be sure to never misplace them again, little buggers! It is in sharing those moments of discovery and triumph that bring me the greatest joy. The best part of astronomy (for me) is watching children look through a telescope for the first time. They usually have no preconceived notions of what they should be seeing. They are, in essence, honestly and perfectively humble. Their minds are ripe for discovery with none of the proclivities toward projection adults often have. When they see something as simple as the Moon's surface for the first time they don't have to be wrong. It is pure discovery, and pure awe. That's when you hear the "wow!" we all love to year. The universe becomes discovered over and over again as each of us travel through our own personal journey amongst the stars. Having now learned this, how can I _not_ share it with as many people as who will accept it? That's why I enjoy astronomy. Why do you? Clear skies. -Ryan _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".
On Wed, June 4, 2014 13:45, Richard Tenney via Utah-Astronomy wrote:
Ryan,
Thank you for this thoughtful piece. I believe most of us can fully relate to what you've written here. For me personally, I love the contemplation that photons from a distant DSO are ending their million+ year journey on my very own retina, that that is both sobering and delightful.
I was listening to a physics lecture some place (wish I could remember where) in which the lecturer described how time doesn't "progress" for light. So if you were riding light you'd leave your point of origin and arrive at the target instantly. Outside, however, it can take millions of years to make the journey. I'm not very up to speed on the physics part of it, but I thought it was a neat idea. To us the light from a distant galaxy is very old. To the light, it was born and then instantly smashed in to your retina. Something about time dilation... maybe one of the physics experts here can explain it to us. -Ryan
participants (6)
-
Brent Watson -
Dave Gary -
Larry Holmes -
Richard Tenney -
Ryan Simpkins -
Wiggins Patrick