Kim, Yes, sharing costs among nations would be a good idea on a number of levels. I also absolutely agree that tax dollars would be more wisely spent on R&D for space exploration than on Blackwater and Haliburton. (But that's just my opinion.) I remain skeptical, however, that we'll ever see the level of national commitment, even with international partners, needed to marshal a half-trillion dollars for a major program of crewed exploration of Mars. We were a much more homogeneous society in the sixties, we had a much larger sense of national destiny, a much deeper anxiety and sense of urgency about our "competition" in the space race, and we weren't a tiny fraction in debt the way we are now. Don't get me wrong, I strongly believe that the benefits we would derive - financially, technologically, politically and culturally - from undertaking an ambitious Mars program would be huge and would do a great deal to unify not only Americans, but the people of all countries participating in the endeavor. That said, when I look at the political and financial landscape of the world I think that maybe we'd be smarter by concentrating on the less expensive and more politically palatable robotic missions. Seth -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kim Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:45 PM To: 'Utah Astronomy' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Happy New Year (belated) Seth, I respectfully disagree. While robotic missions to Mars are important, I believe that they should primarily be for laying groundwork for manned explorative missions. Without eventually landing people on the surface to explore Mars, much of the knowledge that we gain from robots is academic. I also disagree with the cost argument. We can find the money. Invest in space exploration instead of occupying foreign countries and its done - with money left over. The cost argument, for me, is a non-starter. Another issue: share the cost with the ESA, China, Russia, Japan, Iran - whomever wants to help. Many nations are doing so anyway. We can and should better coordinate efforts and share costs. I agree that we should explore the Moon further, including permanent habitations, as another stepping stone to eventual Mars exploration and colonization, and not just to do astronomy from the Moon or exploit its resources. The addition of manned lunar missions and habitations to the whole Mars exploration plan is one of the reasons that I don't think we'll get to Mars in 30 years. But we have to start. The gap from the discovery of the Americas to successful colonies in North America was well over 100 years. We're now re-playing that kind of scenario. (I hope with an accelerated timetable.) Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Seth Jarvis Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:17 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] Happy New Year (belated) Joe, You're raising an important point. Is Mars sufficiently interesting to warrant a crewed mission? I'm of the opinion that the answer is "Yes - if we can afford it." The Martian terrain is incredibly varied, and a boots-on-the-ground understanding of Mars' geology would be hugely valuable. I also know that if the negatives of attempting human footprints on Martian soil become so huge (costs, risks to the lives of the crew, biohazard risks for Earth or Mars) then in spite of a high level of interest we're stuck sending only robots. BTW, I can get behind abandoning plans for crewed missions to Mars in favor of an all-robots strategy in a heartbeat. It's a much higher bang-for-the-buck investment. So what's _really_ intriguing then becomes this question: Which world is the logical stepping stone for further exploration of the solar system - the Moon or Mars? I think the answer has to be the Moon. Can you do astronomy from the surface of Mars better than from Earth? Not a prayer. From the Moon, oh yeah! Is it conceivable that there are economic benefits to exploiting Martian resources? Unlikely, at least not in this century. Exploiting lunar natural resources? Absolutely! Seth Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://gallery.utahastronomy.com Visit the Wiki: http://www.utahastronomy.com