Well, I could have just as appropriately asked, Does the tree and/or forest exist? Regarding creations of the...Creator... Maybe there are things that he created just for his own amusement. (Sorry for the gender bias, but it's just easier than writing he/she/it/they, etc.) Maybe he doesn't care if we can observe them or not. More seriously, science is about the things that are observable. So, if there is an unobservable realm, by definition it isn't of interest to science. It may be of interest to philosophers and religionists, and that is precisely the crux of the problem between creationism-intelligent-design-theory and true science. In part, it's a question of definitions and semantics, but it's based on the specific rules or premises of one discipline versus another. So, to answer my original question, there are numerous legitimate responses, depending on one's approach. All of the following may, therefore, be appropriate: "It doesn't matter." "Nothing exists." "Of course the tree and forest exist, dummy." "If God made the tree fall, it exists." "You do not exist." "The devil made me do it." ;-) -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+kimharch=cut.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Olhomorto@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 6:27 PM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Are we human because we gaze atthestars?(MostlyOT) In a message dated 8/20/2007 6:19:27 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, kimharch@cut.net writes: So, if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it, does the forest exist? Did you mean does the tree exist? But either way, doesn't it have to exist because you just said it fell and you said it was in the forest, didn't you? (ha, ha). But I didn't mean to suggest that the "things" beyond the "barrier" do or don't exist. I was wondering what the Intelligent Designer could be thinking of if the Intelligent Designer creates things just for us but the things are beyond our ability to perceive? ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com ______________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net ______________________________________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.1/962 - Release Date: 8/20/2007 1:08 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.1/962 - Release Date: 8/20/2007 1:08 PM