Aaron, didn't know that you were a scientist. If so, then why do you call evolution ONLY (my emphasis, not yours) a theory? How does that invalidate the theory and/or evidence in favor of it? Using the same criteria, how is creationism/ID an equally valid theory? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lambert, Aaron" <Aaron.Lambert@Williams.com> To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:38 PM Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion | Chuck, I agree with the majority of your post. I do | not believe that ID should be taught in schools for | the same reasons you do not. That is the crux of | this entire discussion and we are in agreement. In | my post I was trying to point out the irony that | while posting how you hated being labeled, you | were guilty of the very same crime. | | You said: | > My belief is that if | > one is to teach a certain religious idea, | > unsupportable scientifically BY IT'S VERY NATURE | | You also said: | > I do feel that the religious right tries to cast their | > opponents in a less-than-spiritual light, and I feel | > that is unfair. I also feel that ID proponents can't | > be indignant at being called unscientific when they | > really are unscientific. | | Why are supporters of ID automatically "unscientific"? | It seems to me that you are applying your own narrow | definition of "science" to them just as they are | using a narrow view of "religious" as their basis to | label you. | | Jim Stitley posted: | > I mentioned very early on in this thread that I am a | > trained and practicing scientist (biochemist and also | > amateur astronomer), BUTT I am a very spiritual person | > and have my own belief in God. It is not either/or | > UNLESS someone says it is (and then it still isn't). | | I am also a trained and practicing scientist, yet | according to many posts here I am "unscientific". That | is just as offensive to me as if someone called me non- | religious. As an intelligent, educated person with a | scientific bent, I believe that I have weighed evidence | and come to a conclusion. I do not believe that religion | is inherently unscientific. That is a large can of worms, | I realize, and probably not worth discussing. | | If we are to have an intelligent, open debate about | any topic we must drop the labels. We can't just | wave our hand and say "Bah!" like Dogbert and cast | an entire section of the populace (the majority, | according to recent elections) into a bucket | labeled "unwashed masses" and discount their | opinions. That is the "intellectual elitism" I | was referring to. | | Aaron | | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Chuck Hards | > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:36 PM | > To: Utah Astronomy | > Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion | > | > | > Aaron, respectfully, if one does not follow scientific | > principals, one cannot be a scientist, and to invoke | > deity as part of a technical solution is to clearly | > set science aside. | > | > Yes, of course evolution is a theory, but it seems to | > be very well supported by hard evidence- creationism | > and ID is not. Just because some ID proponents have | > science degrees and backgrounds does not mean they | > have used valid science in their arguments. I have | > yet to see any hard evidence in direct support of | > creationism or ID, only testimonials, circular | > reasoning, and otherwise unsuported "psuedo science" | > that never stands up to critical analysis. There are | > too many leaps of faith required to embrace it. Faith | > is, after all, by definition, belief without works. | > Science will never be able to test religion, by | > religion's own self-defintion. | > | > On the other hand, I personally have seen massive | > evidence of evolutionary principals. The fossil | > record need not be absolutely complete in order to | > bolster the theory. It may never be complete. For | > that matter, our knowledge of physics and chemistry | > isn't nearly absolute, yet the theories seem to hold | > up just fine. Your car still runs, your telescope | > works, your computer works, your prescriptions help | > your health. Yet we still don't know the absolute | > true nature of light and matter itself. | > | > I suppose a higher intelligence directly makes my | > computer work and burns the gasoline in my cars | > engine, yes? No need for all that molality and | > Avogadro's number stuff after all. | > | > I am not sure what you mean by "intellectual elitism". | > I personally am hardly a great intellect, there are | > much more intelligent people on this list and all | > around me. When I say "how dare they", I express my | > concern at being called a non-spiritual person, when | > my belief in God is very firm, and my daily life | > embraces Christian principals. I do not believe in | > Old Testament scripture as the literal Word of God, | > and I think there is the great rift between the | > creationist/ID proponent and the evolutionary | > Christian. Some people are just not willing to | > question what their elders have told them, and are all | > too quick to question what their own eyes and minds | > behold. Perhaps fear of ostracism lies at the heart | > of this, who knows for sure. There are probably | > thousands of reasons why some people will cling to one | > view in the face of massive counter evidence. And I'm | > sure creationsist/ID proponents feel that I'm just as | > blind as they think I'm saying they are. Maybe | > stubborn is a better word. | > | > I think it far worse to question one's belief in God | > than to question one's grasp of techincal procedure. | > | > You see, I do believe in God, very much so, but that | > belief is between me and Him. My belief is that if | > one is to teach a certain religious idea, | > unsupportable scientifically BY IT'S VERY NATURE in | > public schools as science, then all religious ideas | > must be taught in public schools as science, not just | > fundamentalist Christian views. A Pandora's Box will | > be opened, a door that leads ultimately to civil | > conflict, religious rift, civil war and anarchy. It's | > happening in other parts of the world right now. It's | > happened sporadically in this country in recent times | > (Clinic bombings & murders, for example, always | > carried out by someone "doing God's work".) | > | > We have a remarkable country and constitution here. | > We have the right to believe as we wish as long as it | > hurts no one else. The only way it continues to work | > though, is to stay vigilant and not let any particular | > religious ideas creep into government. This is not a | > stifling of freedom, it is what makes the guarantees | > of freedom keep working for everyone- not just the | > ones who happen to believe what you do. It either | > works for all, or it works for none. | > | > Now, by changing a few labels in my post you made a | > clever statement. But upon closer examination, are we | > just raging in each other's faces, or really trying to | > keep the issue in perspective? | > | > I do feel that the religious right tries to cast their | > opponents in a less-than-spiritual light, and I feel | > that is unfair. I also feel that ID proponents can't | > be indignant at being called unscientific when they | > really are unscientific. You can't take a | > non-scientific idea and make it science just by | > wishing hard and calling scientists "elitists". | > | > Aaron, ID is not science. It's relgion. Let's teach | > it in religion classes, for those who want to attend, | > not science class. Otherwise one day you may be | > finding your kids being exposed to government | > sponsored Zoroastrianism, Satanism, (gasp) Islamic | > fundamentalism or....God knows what. | > | | _______________________________________________ | Utah-Astronomy mailing list | Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com | http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy | Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com | | ______________________________________________________________________ | This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net | ______________________________________________________________________ | |