Well said Chuck, thanks for taking the time to write that. That would make a great letter to the editor as well. Chuck Hards <chuckhards@yahoo.com> wrote: I've been trying not to post on this topic because it gets me too emotional, but I can't stand being silent anymore, in the face of current national and local discussion. To do so invites what Kim was talking about and I will not be persecuted by self-appointed, deluded, religious zealots. This is not directed at any specific people, but followers of creationism/intelligent design as science, in general. Believe what you want, but don't call it science and don't try and teach it to my child as such. I request that you keep your propaganda to yourself, you are guaranteed the right constitutionally to believe as you wish as long as you don't harm anyone or infringe on their liberty. Keep your religion in your Sunday services and out of the public schools, and stop trying to disguise your beliefs as science. By all means, this can be discussed, but not as testable science, because it just isn't. If you can't accept real science, then stop driving a car, stop using electricity, stop taking your prescriptions and seeing the doctor, in other words, stop being a hypocrite and maybe then at least I'll respect you a tiny bit for having a shred of integrity. Evolution is sometimes called an alternate religion by the creationists/intelligent design camp, but this is not true. Evolution is science and takes no stand on religion at all. Science and religion must always be kept seperate. One cannot use tenets from one to defend the other, by their respective natures. What the proponents of creationism/intelligent design don't realize, however, is that while it does not at all include divinity as part of it's argument, evolution does NOT PRECLUDE DIVINTY or DIVINE INTENT! Obviously there is a God and obviously He works within the rules He Himself made and set in motion. I think the blindness of the creationist is based on the belief of literal scriptural truth. Scripture was written at a time when scientific principles were completely unknown. Scripture was written and intended more as a political tool in it's day, to control populations, when high priests and prophets ruled daily life. It contains many excellent guidelines for living one's life, but in fact also presents many utter fictions as truth. These were originally devices to explain certain realities and phenomenon when their true natures were not understood at all. You can't explain physcial & chemical processes to people who don't understand physics & chemistry, especially when the teachers don't understand them either! To ignore this speaks more of personal insecurity than anything else. Of course I know that some "faithful" will sling stones and arrows at me, but that can't be helped, that's what they do when someone else can't see the devices that hold up their personal belief system. My belief system doesn't have all the answers, either, but it does admit this and doesn't need God breathing upon the waters to expalin the current gaps in the long story that is natural history. Certainly He designed it, set it in motion, and is in all times and all places at once. This doesn't violate any physical laws because God is not bound by physics. But humans and everything physically associated with humans are. In this light it is not demeaning to admit that one shared common ancestors with other species- it's part of the Master's plan and I'm just glad to be included in it. Heck, I'm more embarrassed at having descended from a certain grandfather, than ape-like tree dwellers a million years ago. If your own pride won't let you accept evolution or science, or you think you have some special status in the universe just because of your humanity or beliefs, I think you are missing quite a bit of the wonder of life, but by all means go ahead and believe it, just don't legislate it as mandatory or pretend it's science. If you feel that science is rammed down your childrens throats, by all means withdraw them from public schools and home school them or send them to a religous institution, as is your constitutional right. It is up to you to make the disctinction between science and religion and if you can't, well, as long as you are living there is room for personal growth. It's what God expects of all of us. I posted to get a heavy weight off my chest and get it on the record that my religious beliefs are just as strong and firm as the creationsists/intelligent design boosters, yet I embrace science and am not confused or torn by apparent contradictions. Science has nothing at all to do with spirituality, the two can easily co-exist. I do not consider this pontificating- it is a reasoned rebuttal to a non-scientific idea masquerading as scientific "theory". I will not debate this further in this forum. You are of course free to email me off-list if you wish me to read your reply and respond, or wish to threaten fundamentalist reprisals. Thanks for your time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page