Yes, of course! I was just responding to the question of oil reserves being so crucial. ________________________________ From: Erik Hansen <erikhansen@thebluezone.net> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Germany's mistake was starting a war!
And this is why we're about to be overrun by Venezuela or Saudi Arabia! By
your logic, any number of countries can conquer us. It's not the oil reserves you personally have in your country, but the reserves you can tap into, that count. Germany's big mistake was to invade Russia; I suspect Russia could have defeated them single-handedly. Instead, they were hammered in both directions. And in modern warfare even if you have access to reserves at home or elsewhere, the supplies can be knocked out. We need to be a bit more flexible in our thinking here. If Chuck and Siegfried are right, it doesn't matter whether we drill every national park, monument and wilderness area in Utah -- we're doomed. Even Canada can kick our butts. Of course, the argument isn't right. Nuclear bombs are a much better deterrence than a Kuwait-size oil field. Geopolitics is a little too complex for that, and I suspect, light years out of the realm of the Utah Astronomy newsgroup. -- Joe
________________________________ From: Siegfried Jachmann <siegfried@jachmann.org> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
Simply illogical. Oil reserves don't make a military but the military, as Chuck said, runs on oil. WWII, Battle of the Bulge is a prime example of that. The Germans knew that they were done when they saw Americans had enough oil to send cake to the front lines.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh come on. The world has plenty of proven energy reserves and the U.S. isn't even a major player in the game. Don't kid yourself about running out so that we have to dig up the San Rafael Swell. And the argument about the military is silly. If it were true, Venezuela should have taken over the U.S. long ago. Take a look at this: http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves -- Joe
________________________________ From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] USGS Report: Gas and Oil around and in NP in southern Utah; More dark skies at serious risk.
I disagree on some points. Those known energy reserves are some of what is being considered here, and the technology doesn't yet exist to tap much of the rest of it. Joe, long before all the oil is gone, there will be regional wars over the remaining reserves. The world's armies will grab up what's left because if you don't have oil, you can't run a military. I'm betting that day will happen before the turn of the next century. Not hundreds of years, but a few decades. Usage is going to outstrip production at an ever increasing rate as the population increases and the third world develops industrially. Look at what's happened to gas prices in just the last 20 years because China industrialized. Imagine when another dozen countries with sizeable populations enter into the equation. Huge portions of the world's inhabitants can't afford fossil fuels even today. Gasoline is now a carefully budgeted item in even my household. I can't afford to just get in the car and drive whenever the mood strikes me. I couldn't afford to drive to a dark-sky site two or three times a month even if I had the free time, without giving up money spent on something else. The environment isn't pristine anymore, anywhere. Measurable pollutants are found at even the most remote locations. Again, understand that I'm not anti-environment. I hope the dark skies aren't ruined and the undeveloped lands aren't spoiled.
My point is that it is naive to simply throw one's hands into the air and shout outrage. The problem is large and has many factors that must be considered. Either we find ways to feed people, bring them potable water and keep them warm, move them around affordably, keep them employed and educated, or there is war, famine, revolution and death like mankind has never seen before.
The solution lies in compromise and changing behavior, on both sides of the issue. Some lands should be off-limits unless national security depends on their development. But some resources also must be developed because we don't have other immediate viable options.
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman@yahoo.com
wrote:
My opinion is that if someday we need to use every last drop of oil,
then
I guess it will happen. But that time is literally hundreds of years away, based on known energy reserves. Meanwhile, it's vital that we protect some vital resources, our pristine environment, clear skies and the water we need. Those oil tracts wouldn't make much difference in our overall energy use, but nobody can truly restore nature once it's plundered and we aren't about to magically get more water. -- Joe
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_______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Send messages to the list to Utah-Astronomy@mailman.xmission.com The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. To unsubscribe go to: http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".