Steve, Erik answered in part for me, but let me add a bit. I get national pride and I just didn't see a need to continue that discussion I don't think there's anything wrong with a partnership with other nations who may be taking the lead on certain programs. We do it all the time with observatories and the other sciences. (Let's not go into military cooperation, but we do that too, in Libya for example.) Riding to the ISS aboard Russian vehicles would allow us to move beyond what they are doing (and what we might have otherwise been duplicating) to do our own thing, go to the Moon, for example. Think of the waste in terms of human effort that the space race of the '60's generated. Had we cooperated instead of competed, maybe we would already be on Mars. (By "we" I mean the human race, not just Americans.) I'm reminded of an earlier space-race-type venture, the construction of the transcontinental railroad. Because Congress authorized payment to both the Union Pacific and the Central Pacific based on the amount of track laid, they actually passed one another in Utah, each constructing parallel grades and laying parallel track because they got more money to do so. Congress had to finally intervene and order them to actually connect the two roads, at Promontory. Hundreds of miles of wasteful parallel grades were built at a significant cost to the country. Unfortunately, there's no entity (besides we, the people) to tell NASA, ESA, RSA, JAXA, CNSA or anyone else not to duplicate the work of others. Kim -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of erikhansen@thebluezone.net Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:02 PM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Astronaut talk
My national pride is not dependent on funding conflicts or one program, I doubt very many will lose pride over this. Yes, NASA should have developed an alternative to getting to ISS other that the shuttle, it is a case of bad planning. It was known for a long time this was going to happen. Russia has always been looked to be part of the transition, I do see benefit in this relationship. Space exploration should be a worldwide effort, the United States continues to led on this. NASA is currently managing many missions.
Kim:
You dismiss loss of national pride so easily. While it may be more nebulous than actually counting the funds spent on exploration and comparing them to the bennefits, the issue of pride extends into every facit of our way of life. We have lost a lot of national pride. It shows in our science community, our educational system, our health system, our financial system and every other aspect of our day to day lives. I'm blessed to have spent the last five years raising three of my grandchildren. All of whom exibit excellent leadership ability. The oldest stands most days and salutes the flag of our country and just like I did 41 years ago allows a tear to run down his cheek on occasion. He is beginning to understand national pride. Ok, he is only one young man out of millions of other 21 year olds but he has begun to see the rewards of being in the lead. He is no longer content to sit and "wait for his due". Just the simple fact that we will pay Russia to take our crews into space drives me nuts! I am a leader, I want my country to lead. Yes, the lessons have been learned and well documented for future reference but guess what? There is more to learn! I can see a future where we pay many other countries for our needs if they will take our $$$$. For cryin outloud we can't even make a TV without parts from overseas. (OMG! there will be a shortage of iPads since the earthquake and tsunami in Japan) What will we do, what will we do? We are crippling ourselves on a daily basis. National pride has paid the bills for nearly 235 years now. Have you noticed it is getting harder to pay the bills?
From: kimharch@cut.net To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 11:17:31 -0600 Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Astronaut talk
What would we lose if we don't continue crewed space exploration for the time being? Haven't the lessons learned been well-documented for future reference? And please don't respond with arguments such as loss of national pride. What REALLY do we lose?
Kim
-----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 11:06 AM To: Utah Astronomy Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Astronaut talk
The point isn't how do we get into low-Earth orbit, via Soyuz or shttle; the point is that we need to sustain our crewed space program. If you look at just the practical returns we've had from the program so far, let alone the intangibles, you have to admit it has been a bargain. The same arguments about tight money have killed other important scientific endeavors, and I say they are bogus. They are what forced the country to give up on moon exploration after such a promising start. I'm not religious, but a quote from Jesus seems appropriate: when questioned about the expense of some lotion Mary Magdalene was using to anoint his feet, as the money could have been used for the poor, Jesus said not to worry about that "For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always." We will always have other expenses but if we don't keep crewed space exploration alive now it will slip from our hands. Thanks, Joe
--- On Tue, 3/29/11, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Chuck Hards <chuck.hards@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Astronaut talk To: "Utah Astronomy" <utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 10:47 AM What's the cost in dollars to sustain "pride" and "exceptionalism"?
It's going to take a lot more than two cents.
If we can cut the defense budget (larger than the entire rest of the world, combined) to pay for it, then we don't have a problem. The Upside is, the Russians are the Walmart of launch vehicles at the moment. Money's tight.
On 3/28/11, Steve Fisher <iotacass1@hotmail.com> wrote:
Downside?
Loss of pride? Degradation of American
exceptionalism? Should I go on?
Just my two cents worth. Your opinion may vary. Steve
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