With this crowd, Joe deserves to be teased for his comment about the "ancients". Perhaps we should call him "Joey". Wayne is correct that most amateurs don't know the constellations very well many can't find named stars well enough stars to align their telescopes. But the main thing most of the amateurs I've met are missing is the appreciation of dark adaptation. They arrive late and leave early at star parties with headlights blazing both ways. The even drive home to pick up gear they forgot to bring. Again headlights blazing both ways. It's frustrating to observe with them because they have never experienced full dark adaptation and they don't respect or understand the efforts others are making to achieve it. You can't do it if you are constantly or even occasionaly looking at a display screen. Rubilith won't cut it, you have to turn off the lights and adapt to the dark. Even brief using a red LED flashlight will set you back a good half an hour in adaptation. Anything you can see with a telescope is greatly enhanced if you are fully dark adapted. Some times I like to observe with just 10x50 binoculars and a folding patio chair. When I reorient the chair I make loud whining noises like a slewing LX200 just so I fit in with the rest of the crowd. But without the charts and the lights they need and without the cranky electronic devices (I own and have used many), you can become dark adapted. The first time it happens to you it will change your life and your attitude towards observing forever. Only then can we appreciate what the "ancients" knew long ago. DT