Richard, For a sophisticated treatment of LDS ideas see B. H. Roberts book, "The Way The Truth and The Light", it can be purchased at http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Way-Life-Elementary-Masterwork/dp/1560850779/ref =sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1292351196&sr=8-1 D&C 77 does not state the earth is a few thousand years old. It is speaking of its temporal existence (since Adam - not the first humans to appear in the fossil record) as B. H. Roberts points out. In fact W. W. Phelps recorded that Joseph Smith said that Christ had been working in this system (solar system?) for 2,555,000,000 years. B. H. Roberts quotes Orson Hyde (1854): "The earth, you remember, was void and empty, until our first parents began at the garden of Eden. What does the term replenish mean? This word is derived from the Latin; "re" and "plenus;" "re" denotes repetition, iteration; and "plenus" signifies full, complete; then the meaning of the word replenish is, to refill, recomplete. If I were to go into a merchant's store, and find he had got a new stock of goods, I should say"You have replenished your stock, that is, filled up your establishment, for it looks as it did before." "Now go forth," says the Lord, "and replenish the earth;" for it was covered with gloomy clouds of darkness, excluded from the light of heaven, and darkness brooded upon the face of the deep. The world was peopled before the days of Adam, as much so as it was before the days of Noah. It was said that Noah became the father of a new world, but it was the same old world still, and will continue to be, though it may pass through many changes.J72When God said, Go forth and replenish the earth; it was to replenish the inhabitants of the human species, and make it as it was before." Early Christian authors said the following before their "primitive ideas" were replaced by Aristotle: "heaven is not only a state but a place." 69 True, it is so far away that our sun "and all the world of men" look like but a tiny speck of dust, "because of the vast distance at which it is removed"; but for all that it is still the same universe, and all made of the same basic materials. 70 69. Sophia Christi 70. Lidzbarski, Ginza, Psalms of Thomas, Manichaean Psalm Book This preoccupation with locus assumes a plurality of worlds, and indeed in our "treasure" texts we often find worlds, earths, and kosmoses in the plural. 71 It is only the fallen angels, in fact, led by the blind Samael, who insist: "We are alone and there is none beside us!" 72 "From the place (topos) which the righteous soul will inherit, our sun, because of its great distance, will look like a tiny grain of flour, a mere speck.65 65. Odes Sol. 23:15-17; The Pearl 71. Genesis Apocryphon 72. Ascension of Isaiah Not only are they countless, but they have been going on forever and ever." 68 Father Adam's holy angels inhabit many worlds, says the Sophia Christi. "To the Christians," said the impeccable Justin Martyr, "is promised endless worlds, endless cosmoses." 72 "Man is nothing in the midst of the worlds. This world is but a speck among the worlds, of which man is nothing." 73 "It was the degenerate Minaeans that first taught that this is the only world," says the Talmud 68. Biblical Antiquities of Philo 73. Gospel of Truth Clear Skies, Don -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of garrard55@xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 6:22 AM To: utah-astronomy@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 60 Kim, The general problem is when religious texts are used to explain astronomical phenomenon. I read a Facebook posting by a LDS person reviewing Lynn Hilton's work, talking about how they liked that he used the scriptures to study the stars and not the stars. People who treat these texts literally are likely to reject scientific authority in favor of religious/scriptural authority. This is certainly not unique to LDS people, but I would say that the additional scriptures of the LDS movement complicate matters, because they are added to what are already problematic passages in the Bible. The Book of Abraham is filled with some cryptic and confusing descriptions of the universe, much like the Book of Revelation from the NT, and so is subject to all kinds of wild interpretations. While the astronomy in the BoA appears to me unscientific, there are two instances of heliocentrism in the Book of Mormon. Then again, D&C 77 is pretty clear on the point of the earth being a few thousand years old, and this is NOT the statement of a bronze age man, but the communications of a deity to a modern prophet. I think that the problem is less with the LDS scriptures and more with the people who mix these ideas with those of, as I mentioned before, Sitchen, Talbott, Velikovsky, etc. These are crackpots, and associating them with LDS thought is a great disservice. There are real LDS astronomers who have contended with this ignorance, like R. Grant Athay and the late Erich Paul, but I see very little of their thinking and more of that of Rod Cluff, prominent LDS hollow earther. Is there stuff like this elsewhere? Absolutely. It seems to be a universal phenomenon, but especially in the U.S. There are versions of this occurring in every major religious tradition, where the boundaries between science and religion are always tested and a struggle for authority continues. Does that concern me? Absolutely. The US is declining in its academic vigor towards the sciences. Many countries are now launching probes and landers, and America's pride in its technical achievements seems at a low point. This is not the time to be building creation museums and trying to force intelligent design into textbooks. Thankfully, none of these things have happened in Utah (yet), which is to our credit.
I hope others don't mind if we continue this a bit. Now I think we may
something to talk about. Richard, you obviously have very strong opinions
have -
nothing wrong with that, but they can easily be construed as attacks. I share your sentiments regarding Von Daniken but I'm not familiar with the others you cite. From my experience, Latter-Day Saints are no more prone to believe such stuff as any other group of well-meaning but perhaps uninformed people. I'm sure that literal interpretations of some LDS scriptures such as the writings of Abraham (where the Kolob story comes from) can sound just as strange and silly to others as ancient astronaut theories do to me. My take, as a believing LDS, is that the story of Abraham's Kolob, Biblical creation story and other stories from the Old Testament are largely allegorical. After all, how else might God explain to a goat herder concepts of cosmology, big bang theory, inflation, etc.? (Assuming these theories are basically correct, of course - another discussion.)
For what it's worth, I've been really disappointed that the History Channel is airing programs on UFO's and ancient astronauts. A lot of nonsense, in my opinion. So, Richard, again I don't think that LDS are more na?ve or gullible than others. It's simply a strange but fascinating reality of our American culture. Do you or anyone else know if this kind of stuff is as pervasive elsewhere in the world, particularly in our western counterparts such as Europe?
BTW, David - love the cartoon!
Kim
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End of Utah-Astronomy Digest, Vol 94, Issue 60 **********************************************
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