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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Eye v. Camera
by Joe Bauman 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

We can prove the universe existed at a time when nobody could see it. That's scientific proof. The notion that it exists only because we ot other life forms ard around to witness it is delusional, giving ourselves far too important a role. To the question, what difference does it make?, I say the difference in one's perceptions matters a great deal. Why bother to protect the environment or even care about anyone if none of it matters after you die? The feeling that life goes on after yourself is why we try to make the world a better place. It's why people write wills. The difference in attitudes is the difference between self-absorbed egoism and a more caring temperament, so it does matter. I happen to know from personal experience that you're a nice guy, Chuck, so I think you believe in the reality of the experiences and existence of others. ------------------------------ On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 2:54 PM MDT Chuck Hards wrote: >Hi Joe, that's an old argument, I hope you didn't post it for my benefit >alone. I understand the point of view. But the older I get, the less >satisfying it is. > >To me, the correct answer to the question of 'is there a sound when a tree >falls with no-one to hear it', or 'is there a universe if there is no life >in it', is: *It doesn't matter*. The question, ultimately, isn't worth >asking. It's just words with no value. > >A universe of particles and fields governed by a set of physical laws, with >no intelligence in it, only matters to certain university faculty members >who need a paycheck from the idea. And obviously they would exist in a >different universe. > >I'm one of those who is pretty sure that this universe ends when I die. At >least as far as I'm concerned. If I'm wrong, then I'll be pleasantly >surprised, won't I? And if there is a continuation after this life, it is >bound to be so different and disconnected from this plane and it's >experiences, that it isn't worth speculating about. Such musings are >bandied-about so we can sleep better at night. More words with no >intrinsic value. > >Your mileage may vary. > >On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Chuck, if by "make a sound" you mean send out sound waves, then yes, >> the tree that falls in the forest with nobody around to hear it does make a >> sound. The question about the universe's existance, or not, if there were >> no life to appreciate it is an interesting one. It can be compared to >> asking if the universe exists after one's own death. Woody Alien seems to >> take the position that it won't, in Hannah and Her Sisters when he thinks >> he's dying and imagines that the places he loves (and everything else, of >> course) will no longer exist. These are points worth thinking about. My >> feeling is that the universe didn't come into existence just for my >> benefit. It will continue after I'm gone, just as Woody's favorite places >> will after he dies. The universe exists whether or not anyone observes it. >> The sound and light vibrations will be the same. The light of the early >> universe began propagating before any life came along to see it; we can >> detect it today but >> that doesn't mean it was not there at the time of the Big Bang. >> >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".

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Eye v. Camera
by jcarman6＠q.com 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

My memory is as good as ever - thank you very much, Mr. Watson !! I won't venture to suggest catching YOU on the downside is as rare as an eclipse, but it does happen and should reside in everyone's memory for all eternity (and that is a verrra long time). If and when we meet on the other side, I will still ask you if you know the difference between M13 and M92. You might know a little more by then :) I agree with both Chuck and Joe (and thanks Joe for corrobor ation of my 1991 observation - MAYBE now Brent will accept it snicker snicker - as it comes from a man. He wouldn't take my identification of M13 until Scott Crosby - a man- agreed with me ). In all seriousness, the "over" processing of digital photos should be a real concern. There are some fantastic images out there, but the question is - are they real. Has the photographer processed the image in such a way as to add "detail" that doesn't really exist in reality. Can that misinformation lead us astray as to what is really going on? As a side note on the subject, personal observation still stands equal to if not better than a photograph.

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Cricket chirping
by D P Pierce 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

Joe I love listening to crickets chirping. It mellows me out. * I wish there were crickets where I live.* ** *Deloy*

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Comic
by D P Pierce 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

http://beetlebailey.com/ If the alien was blue it would look like a Smurf. Maybe the Smurfs are aliens, Deloy

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Eye v. Camera
by Joe Bauman 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

Hi Chuck, if by "make a sound" you mean send out sound waves, then yes, the tree that falls in the forest with nobody around to hear it does make a sound. The question about the universe's existance, or not, if there were no life to appreciate it is an interesting one. It can be compared to asking if the universe exists after one's own death. Woody Alien seems to take the position that it won't, in Hannah and Her Sisters when he thinks he's dying and imagines that the places he loves (and everything else, of course) will no longer exist. These are points worth thinking about. My feeling is that the universe didn't come into existence just for my benefit. It will continue after I'm gone, just as Woody's favorite places will after he dies. The universe exists whether or not anyone observes it. The sound and light vibrations will be the same. The light of the early universe began propagating before any life came along to see it; we can detect it today but that doesn't mean it was not there at the time of the Big Bang. -- Joe ------------------------------ On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 1:20 PM MDT Chuck Hards wrote: >The digital camera is especially bad at recording what the eye sees, much >more so that emulsion films, IMO. I constantly see over-saturated photos >with color so vibrant that it doesn't even look real. Of course much of >this is from over-zealous post-processing. > >I've taken digital pictures of parts of my garden, and soil that is dark >brown to the eye is white or grey to the camera even without post-exposure >processing, and IR & UV filters employed. It's picking-up wavelengths that >we don't even see. > >I think this is a big reason why photographers fancy themselves "artists" >for the most part, rather than "historians" or "journalists". Images today >aren't faithfully representative of what was really there, they are what >the imager can do with the data he/she took. > >And ultimately it all gets back to the universe only really existing in the >minds of those who observe it, interact with it. > >If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around, does it make a sound? >If there is no-one in the universe to wonder at it all, and their place in >it, does it even exist? >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Interesting asterism
by Joe Bauman 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

I am filled with dread of the approaching winter when I hear the crickets chirp.in the evening, and they started in June this year. ------------------------------ On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 10:26 AM MDT Siegfried Jachmann wrote: >Mine too but I'm thinking in terms of how many autumns do I have left. > > > >On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:15 AM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> You hope that autumn is far-off? >> >> It's my favorite time of year. >> >> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Siegfried Jachmann >> <siegfried(a)jachmann.org>wrote: >> >> > I hope so. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Chuck Hards <chuck.hards(a)gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > Orion was throwing a leg over the mountains this morning- can autumn be >> > far >> > > off? >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Utah-Astronomy mailing list >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >> Send messages to the list to >> Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >> The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. >> >> To unsubscribe go to: >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on >> "Unsubscribe or edit options". >> > > > >-- >Siegfried >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Eye v. Camera
by Joe Bauman 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

During the eclipse, Patrick made the same estimate, I seem to remember. -- Joe ------------------------------ On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 12:03 PM MDT jcarman6(a)q.com wrote: > > >The contrail shadow is an excellent example of the eye versus camera issue. While an extended exposure of astronomical objects can reveal fascinating detail and color, expanding our understanding of what we see, nothing can beat the eye for moment to moment detail. The eye sees the shifting subtle detail a camera will never be able to capture. > > > >Another example is a solar eclipse. For example, the 1991 solar eclipse - with my eyes I estimated the breadth of the solar corona at seven solar radii. Three on either side of the actual sun. No picture ever published of that eclipse has captured the true extension of the corona. That image resides only in my memory. >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".

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Eye v. Camera
by jcarman6＠q.com 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

What do you know Brent? You can't tell M13 from M92!!! LMAO

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Persied watch
by John M. Craig 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

Chuck, Isn't the best night for Persieds supposed to be Monday the 12th? (I'm not an experienced enough meteor watcher to know how spread out the Persieds are.) My wife and I had intended to be in rural S. Utah on that evening, but plans are fluid at this point. John

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Eye v. Camera
by jcarman6＠q.com 30 Jul '13

30 Jul '13

The contrail shadow is an excellent example of the eye versus camera issue. While an extended exposure of astronomical objects can reveal fascinating detail and color, expanding our understanding of what we see, nothing can beat the eye for moment to moment detail. The eye sees the shifting subtle detail a camera will never be able to capture. Another example is a solar eclipse. For example, the 1991 solar eclipse - with my eyes I estimated the breadth of the solar corona at seven solar radii. Three on either side of the actual sun. No picture ever published of that eclipse has captured the true extension of the corona. That image resides only in my memory.

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