November 2012 - Utah-Astronomy - mailman.xmission.com

Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
by Joe Bauman 30 Nov '12

30 Nov '12

Thanks, Seth and Mat -- I guess we'll just have to work on generating an artificial magnetosphere! But even if such a thing were possible, that wouldn't shield the crew from micrometeorites. I'm starting to understand the huge difficulties of space travel. -- Joe ------------------------------ On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:44 AM MST Seth Jarvis wrote: >Hi Joe, > >No, the problem is with high speed solar protons and other nuclei that are part of the solar wind. The ISS is currently within Earth's magnetosphere, which does a great job deflecting these electrically charged particles. Earth's magnetic field funnels them to the poles, hence the aurora. > >In interplanetary space you'd have the fun of worrying about micrometeoroids _plus_ the equivalent radiation of a chest x-ray per day or if you're lucky, per week. You'd need more mass between you and the solar wind on an interplanetary journey of any duration (like 3 years) to survive with your chromosomes intact. > >The Apollo Command Module provided astronauts with more shielding than the ISS does. The LEM was pretty flimsy in this regard, but it wasn't designed for a transit of the Van Allen belts, its where the crew would spend most of their time, and it was only intended to house astronauts for a couple of days. Apollo-era LEM spacecraft couldn't provide a survivable level of radiation protection for more than about 10 days on the Moon. > >In fact, the ISS crew have a system of "where can I hide" designated areas on the ISS when ground controllers send a warning of a solar event. They go to parts of the station that have more shielding than others and wait it out. > >Seth > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:33 AM >To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration > > > > >Thanks for a neat analysis, Seth. If automated supply ships met the station at various points in its travels, that would reduce its load. I don't understand the shielding problem because the astronauts already can spend a year on the station as it is -- is this problem due to higher radiation closer to the sun? > >------------------------------ >On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:57 AM MST Seth Jarvis wrote: > >>What a COOL thing to think about! >> >>The ISS would need to be reinforced pretty substantially to withstand the accelerations needed to get it to Mars in a reasonable amount of time - say something on the order of 18 months. The ISS currently masses 420,000 kg. Maybe if you're lucky you could get the whole thing structurally ready to go to Mars at a mass of 500,000 kg. >> >>Then there's the weight of the food, water and air for the crew for what would have to be about a three year mission. >> >>Then there's the weight of the extra radiation shielding you'll need since you'll be in interplanetary space, beyond the protective bubble of earth's magnetosphere. >> >>Then there is the mass of the fuel and rockets to power the ISS onto a trans-Martian trajectory. >> >>Then there's the mass of fuel needed to slow it down so it can be captured by Mars' gravity. >> >>Then there's the mass of fuel needed to leave Mars and return to Earth. Although it seems counterintuitive, going from an outer planet to an inner planet actually requires _more_ fuel than the original out-bound trip. >> >>If you look at the fuel requirements to get the Mars Science Laboratory headed to Mars, excluding launch weight, one-way, to get a grasp on the payload mass - to - initial vehicle mass ratio as a guide, then you're still looking at a fuel load several times the mass of what you're trying to get to Mars and back. A few hundred metric tons of fuel is probably a very conservative estimate for how much fuel you'd need to carry. With bracing, shielding, extra rockets, fuel and life-support consumables for three years, you've got to be looking at a total mass of a few thousand metric tons. >> >>In other words - don't hold your breath waiting for NASA to send the ISS to Mars. >> >>But it _is_ a cool idea. Sort of a geekier version of "Space: 1999." >> >>Seth >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman >>Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:10 PM >>To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >>Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration >> >> >>A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again? >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>Send messages to the list to >>Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. >> >>To unsubscribe go to: >>http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Utah-Astronomy mailing list >>http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >> >>Send messages to the list to >>Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >> >>The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. >> >>To unsubscribe go to: >>http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >>Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". > > >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". > >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".

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Bomb on thr Moon?
by D P Pierce 29 Nov '12

29 Nov '12

Has anybody heard of this? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/28/atomic-bomb-moon-secret-mission-nu… Deloy

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Update Set in San Francisco About Curiosity Mars Rover
by Wiggins Patrick 29 Nov '12

29 Nov '12

MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 PHONE 818-354-5011 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov Advisory: 2012-377b Nov. 29, 2012 Update Set in San Francisco About Curiosity Mars Rover The full version of this story with accompanying images is at: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2012-377&cid=release_2012-377 PASADENA, Calif. -- The next news conference about the NASA Mars rover Curiosity will be held at 9 a.m. Monday, Dec. 3, in San Francisco at the Fall Meeting of the American Geophysical Union (AGU). Rumors and speculation that there are major new findings from the mission at this early stage are incorrect. The news conference will be an update about first use of the rover's full array of analytical instruments to investigate a drift of sandy soil. One class of substances Curiosity is checking for is organic compounds -- carbon-containing chemicals that can be ingredients for life. At this point in the mission, the instruments on the rover have not detected any definitive evidence of Martian organics. The Mars Science Laboratory Project and its Curiosity rover are less than four months into a two-year prime mission to investigate whether conditions in Mars' Gale Crater may have been favorable for microbial life. Curiosity is exceeding all expectations for a new mission with all of the instruments and measurement systems performing well. This is spectacular for such a complex system, and one that is operated so far away on Mars by people here on planet Earth. The mission already has found an ancient riverbed on the Red Planet, and there is every expectation for remarkable discoveries still to come. Audio and visuals from the briefing also will be streamed online at: http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl . For more information about the mission, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/mars and http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl . -end-

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super giant black hole
by Mark Shelton 29 Nov '12

29 Nov '12

link to a story on the news http://news.yahoo.com/super-giant-black-hole-baffles-scientists-174556589--… Mark Shelton Indian Hills Middle School CTE Tech Ed. Teacher Salt Lake Astronomical Society Board Member (School and Special Star Parties Coordinator)

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
by Joe Bauman 29 Nov '12

29 Nov '12

Oh crap, I'm too pooped to think up a good response! ------------------------------ On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 6:42 AM MST Rodger C. Fry wrote: >Joe, One other consideration is that just expelling waste into open space >will make some poor space sojourner to have a "Close Encounter of a Turd >Kind!" > >Rodger C. Fry > >-----Original Message----- >From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com >[mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman >Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 10:00 PM >To: Utah Astronomy >Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration > >A large facility like the space station could carry plenty of supplies for a >small crew. But why not launch automated resupply ships that would arrive at >certain points in space the same time as the station? And biological waste >isn't such a huge problem -- urine is already recycled into water, and the >rest could be jettisoned if needed, as nasty as that is. -- Joe > > > >________________________________ > From: william baker <baker464b(a)yahoo.com> >To: Utah Astronomy <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com> >Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:41 PM >Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration > >Just a thought here, the ion system I could see, and comments about >structural integrity is a valid issue as well. My thoughts are more on >logistical matters, that being oxygen, food and water for the crew. Not to >mention biological waste during the trip. > > >________________________________ >From: Joe Bauman <josephmbauman(a)yahoo.com> >To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:09 PM >Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration > > >A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion >units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, >into Mars orbit, and back again? > >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on >"Unsubscribe or edit options". >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on >"Unsubscribe or edit options". >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on >"Unsubscribe or edit options". > > >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration
by Joe Bauman 29 Nov '12

29 Nov '12

Thanks for a neat analysis, Seth. If automated supply ships met the station at various points in its travels, that would reduce its load. I don't understand the shielding problem because the astronauts already can spend a year on the station as it is -- is this problem due to higher radiation closer to the sun? ------------------------------ On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:57 AM MST Seth Jarvis wrote: >What a COOL thing to think about! > >The ISS would need to be reinforced pretty substantially to withstand the accelerations needed to get it to Mars in a reasonable amount of time - say something on the order of 18 months. The ISS currently masses 420,000 kg. Maybe if you're lucky you could get the whole thing structurally ready to go to Mars at a mass of 500,000 kg. > >Then there's the weight of the food, water and air for the crew for what would have to be about a three year mission. > >Then there's the weight of the extra radiation shielding you'll need since you'll be in interplanetary space, beyond the protective bubble of earth's magnetosphere. > >Then there is the mass of the fuel and rockets to power the ISS onto a trans-Martian trajectory. > >Then there's the mass of fuel needed to slow it down so it can be captured by Mars' gravity. > >Then there's the mass of fuel needed to leave Mars and return to Earth. Although it seems counterintuitive, going from an outer planet to an inner planet actually requires _more_ fuel than the original out-bound trip. > >If you look at the fuel requirements to get the Mars Science Laboratory headed to Mars, excluding launch weight, one-way, to get a grasp on the payload mass - to - initial vehicle mass ratio as a guide, then you're still looking at a fuel load several times the mass of what you're trying to get to Mars and back. A few hundred metric tons of fuel is probably a very conservative estimate for how much fuel you'd need to carry. With bracing, shielding, extra rockets, fuel and life-support consumables for three years, you've got to be looking at a total mass of a few thousand metric tons. > >In other words - don't hold your breath waiting for NASA to send the ISS to Mars. > >But it _is_ a cool idea. Sort of a geekier version of "Space: 1999." > >Seth > > >-----Original Message----- >From: utah-astronomy-bounces(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bauman >Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 6:10 PM >To: utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com >Subject: [Utah-astronomy] Mars exploration > > >A question for the group: what is the feasibility of attaching propulsion units to the International Space Station and taking it out of Earth orbit, into Mars orbit, and back again? > >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options". > >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".

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space station
by Larry Holmes 28 Nov '12

28 Nov '12

FYI. Clouds? 73 -------- Original Message -------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:57:52 -0500 (EST) From: noreply(a)nasa.gov To: United-States-Utah-Salt-Lake-City-AM(a)lists.hq.nasa.gov SpotTheStation! Time: Thu Nov 29 6:42 AM, Visible: 5 min, Max Height: 51 degrees, Appears: WNW, Disappears: SSE

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AGU schedule
by Wiggins Patrick 28 Nov '12

28 Nov '12

I just received the following from one of the folks I report to at NASA. patrick For those of you interested in earth and space science scientific announcements to be made at next week's American Geophysical Union meeting, here's the media briefing schedule (subject to change) (all times are Pacific Standard): http://fallmeeting.agu.org/2012/media-center/2012-press-conference-schedule/ NOTE: Press Conferences and participants are subject to change, both before and during Fall Meeting. Please check back frequently for updates, additions, and other changes to the schedule. Webstreaming: How to Access 2012 Fall Meeting Press Conferences (LIVE) via the Internet http://fallmeeting.agu.org/2012/media-center/press-conference-webstreaming-… Mars Rover Curiosity’s Investigations in Gale Crater Monday, 3 December 9:00 a.m. PST Climate Change and Civilizations Monday, 3 December 11:30 a.m. Voyager press availability Monday, 3 December 12:30 p.m. Improving forecasts of “Pineapple Expresses” Monday, 3 December 1:30 p.m. Winter is coming… but what happens when it leaves early? Monday, 3 December 2:30 p.m. Superstorm Sandy, Black Swan Cyclones and the Economic Toll to Come Monday, 3 December 4:00 p.m. New Findings, New Enigmas: NASA’s Van Allen Probes Begin their Exploration of the Radiation Belts Tuesday, 4 December 8:00 a.m. Fire in a Changing Climate and What We Can Do About It Tuesday, 4 December 9:00 a.m. Mars Rover Opportunity’s Investigations at Endeavour Crater Tuesday, 4 December 10:30 a.m. An Unlikely New Tool for Spotting Clandestine Nuclear Tests Tuesday, 4 December 1:30 p.m. Science & Technology at Extreme Depths, with James Cameron and DEEPSEA CHALLENGE Scientists Tuesday, 4 December 2:30 p.m. Wednesday, 5 December - 9 a.m. NASA’s Lunar Twins – GRAIL First Science Results Wednesday, 5 December Earth at Night 10:30 a.m. What’s going on in the Arctic? Wednesday, 5 December 11:30 a.m. How Much Carbon Gets Stored In Western U.S. Ecosystems? Wednesday, 5 December 2:30 pm Setting boundaries for the Anthropocene Thursday, 6 December 9 a.m. Media Availability with NSF Director Subra Suresh Thursday, 6 December 1:30 p.m.

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] New Cassini picture.
by Joe Bauman 28 Nov '12

28 Nov '12

Or Don's. ------------------------------ On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:41 PM MST Wiggins Patrick wrote: >Agreed. Almost as good as Tyler's work. > >patrick :) > >Sent from my iPad > >On Nov 28, 2012, at 11:09, Daniel Holmes <danielh(a)holmesonics.com> wrote: > >> Jaw droppingly beautiful: >> >> http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2012/11272100-saturn-south-… >> >> Dan >> -- >> Daniel Holmes, danielh(a)holmesonics.com >> "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin > >_______________________________________________ >Utah-Astronomy mailing list >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy > >Send messages to the list to >Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com > >The Utah-Astronomy mailing list is not affiliated with any astronomy club. > >To unsubscribe go to: >http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy >Then enter your email address in the space provided and click on "Unsubscribe or edit options".

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New Cassini picture.
by Daniel Holmes 28 Nov '12

28 Nov '12

Jaw droppingly beautiful: http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2012/11272100-saturn-south-… Dan -- Daniel Holmes, danielh(a)holmesonics.com "Laugh while you can, monkey boy!" -- Lord John Whorfin

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