August 2005 - Utah-Astronomy - mailman.xmission.com

August SLAS meeting
by Patrick Wiggins 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

According to a certain SLAS president who doesn't want to play here anymore <grin>: "The speaker for the August meeting will be Dr. Paolo Gondolo of the University of Utah. His talk, entitles "Most of the universe is not like us" has been especially prepared for SLAS." Said president can be heckled, ummm, er, I mean reached, for comment at ziggy943(a)xmission.com . Patrick

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Re: FW: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion
by Joan Carman 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

Sorry Mike, they're still not working. At least for me. All I get is "error reading archive file" or the Daily Herald Banner for today, but no article (i.e., no printed word) I tried about 8 of them. Karen did get me the link to the article I had just read, so I have it. >>> mwkwan(a)sisna.com 08/05/2005 1:13 PM >>> My previous links didn't work. These should. Mike _____ From: Michael Kwan [mailto:mwkwan@sisna.com] Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:12 PM To: 'Jim Stitley' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion Sorry, my email program added HRT to the links. Try the links below. If they don't work, copy and paste the whole link and it will. Mike Link#1 <http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/ prv/archive/2005/June/22/Lifestyle/70976.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&autho rSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pub> http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/22/Lifestyle/70976.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&author Search=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=&mode =allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Link#2 <http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/ prv/archive/2005/June/01/Lifestyle/70687.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=inte lligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&auth orSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pu> http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/01/Lifestyle/70687.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&autho rSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=&mod e=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Link#3 <http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/ prv/archive/2005/May/25/Lifestyle/69498.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&autho rSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pub> http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/25/Lifestyle/69498.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&author Search=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=&mode =allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Link <http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/ prv/archive/2005/May/18/Lifestyle/69021.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%252!F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pu> #4 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/18/Lifestyle/69021.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2!F31%2F2005&autho rSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=&mod e=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 _____ From: Jim Stitley [mailto:sitf2000@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:50 PM To: Michael Kwan Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion None of these links worked. Thought you would want to know. Jim Michael Kwan <mwkwan(a)sisna.com> wrote: Duane Jeffery, professor of zoology at BYU has written series of articles on this issue: http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/22/Lifestyle/70976.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/08/Lifestyle/70361.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/01/Life! style/706 87.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&a uthorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages= &mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/25/Lifestyle/69498.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/18/Lifestyle/69021.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2! F31%2F200 5&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Michael W. Kwan Chances are high that one or more of the foregoing statements was intended as humor by an individual with little to no discernible sense of humor. No offense was intended to any person, animal, reglion, political party, spirit, race, ethinicity, gender, sexual orientation, plant, fungus or other as-of-yet-to-be-discovered form of life or death. If you find any statement to be offensive, I sincerely apologize and humbly beg for your forgiveness. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+mwkwan=sisna.com(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+mwkwan=sisna.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joan Carman Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:44 AM To: kimharch(a)cut.net; utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion Kim Darn, I can't find it, but I just read it this morning. It is an article from the Daily Herald (Rich, can you help here?). A professor of Zoology at BYU wrote about testing ID. He used as examples the East Indian Gods Vishnu,________- and Shiva. Very well done. It goes straight to your concern. >>> kimharch(a)cut.net 08/05/2005 9:27 AM >>> Hey, Joe. Is there a chance that you'll be writing something to address this? I realize, of course, that you wouldn't wish to editorialize, but are our concerns regarding this issue worthy of an article? On a related matter, I appreciated Don's remarks about problems some scientists have with evolutionary theories and arguments in favor of intelligent design or something akin to it. However, Don, it wasn't clear to me whether or not you favor teaching these positions i! n the science classroom. For me, the issue isn't whether such opinions are valid or not, the issue is whether they are testable, and therefore, could be investigated scientifically. I don't recall if any of the sources you cited had any thoughts in this regard. If Joe or someone else were to write a piece for publication that highlights the concerns of many of us, I sure hope that you would address an alternative viewpoint. You seem to be more versed in arguments that question evolution than I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Carman" To: ; Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion | Thanks for the link Michael. An excellent editorial - and that's saying a lot for the SL Tribune. | | It is my guess that Buttars didn't receive a warm welcome when he proposed ID i! n schools in June and now with the help of Bush, who has let his deeply religious beliefs spill over in to secular/science based matters before, he thinks he will get a warmer reception in the DN (sorry Joe - it is owned by the LDS Church). Too bad the DN doesn't have a Letters to the Editor forum. | | | _______________________________________________ | Utah-Astronomy mailing list | Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com | http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy | Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com | | ______________________________________________________________________ | This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net | ______________________________________________________________________ | | _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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FW: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion
by Michael Kwan 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

My previous links didnt work. These should. Mike _____ From: Michael Kwan [mailto:mwkwan@sisna.com] Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:12 PM To: 'Jim Stitley' Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion Sorry, my email program added HRT to the links. Try the links below. If they dont work, copy and paste the whole link and it will. Mike Link#1 <http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/ prv/archive/2005/June/22/Lifestyle/70976.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&autho rSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pub> http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/22/Lifestyle/70976.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&author Search=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=&mode =allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Link#2 <http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/ prv/archive/2005/June/01/Lifestyle/70687.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=inte lligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&auth orSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pu> http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/01/Lifestyle/70687.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&autho rSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=&mod e=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Link#3 <http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/ prv/archive/2005/May/25/Lifestyle/69498.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&autho rSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pub> http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/25/Lifestyle/69498.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&author Search=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=&mode =allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Link <http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/ prv/archive/2005/May/18/Lifestyle/69021.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%252!F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pu> #4 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/18/Lifestyle/69021.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2!F31%2F2005&autho rSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=&mod e=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 _____ From: Jim Stitley [mailto:sitf2000@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:50 PM To: Michael Kwan Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion None of these links worked. Thought you would want to know. Jim Michael Kwan <mwkwan(a)sisna.com> wrote: Duane Jeffery, professor of zoology at BYU has written series of articles on this issue: http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/22/Lifestyle/70976.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/08/Lifestyle/70361.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/01/Life! style/706 87.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&a uthorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages= &mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/25/Lifestyle/69498.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/18/Lifestyle/69021.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design§ionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2! F31%2F200 5&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Michael W. Kwan Chances are high that one or more of the foregoing statements was intended as humor by an individual with little to no discernible sense of humor. No offense was intended to any person, animal, reglion, political party, spirit, race, ethinicity, gender, sexual orientation, plant, fungus or other as-of-yet-to-be-discovered form of life or death. If you find any statement to be offensive, I sincerely apologize and humbly beg for your forgiveness. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+mwkwan=sisna.com(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+mwkwan=sisna.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joan Carman Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:44 AM To: kimharch(a)cut.net; utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion Kim Darn, I can't find it, but I just read it this morning. It is an article from the Daily Herald (Rich, can you help here?). A professor of Zoology at BYU wrote about testing ID. He used as examples the East Indian Gods Vishnu,________- and Shiva. Very well done. It goes straight to your concern. >>> kimharch(a)cut.net 08/05/2005 9:27 AM >>> Hey, Joe. Is there a chance that you'll be writing something to address this? I realize, of course, that you wouldn't wish to editorialize, but are our concerns regarding this issue worthy of an article? On a related matter, I appreciated Don's remarks about problems some scientists have with evolutionary theories and arguments in favor of intelligent design or something akin to it. However, Don, it wasn't clear to me whether or not you favor teaching these positions i! n the science classroom. For me, the issue isn't whether such opinions are valid or not, the issue is whether they are testable, and therefore, could be investigated scientifically. I don't recall if any of the sources you cited had any thoughts in this regard. If Joe or someone else were to write a piece for publication that highlights the concerns of many of us, I sure hope that you would address an alternative viewpoint. You seem to be more versed in arguments that question evolution than I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Carman" To: ; Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion | Thanks for the link Michael. An excellent editorial - and that's saying a lot for the SL Tribune. | | It is my guess that Buttars didn't receive a warm welcome when he proposed ID i! n schools in June and now with the help of Bush, who has let his deeply religious beliefs spill over in to secular/science based matters before, he thinks he will get a warmer reception in the DN (sorry Joe - it is owned by the LDS Church). Too bad the DN doesn't have a Letters to the Editor forum. | | | _______________________________________________ | Utah-Astronomy mailing list | Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com | http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy | Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com | | ______________________________________________________________________ | This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net | ______________________________________________________________________ | | _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion
by Joan Carman 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

Well said Aaron - welcome to the debate. >>> Aaron.Lambert(a)Williams.com 08/05/2005 11:58 AM >>> I'm a late comer to this discussion because I have been on vacation, but it has been a fun read. As a disclaimer, I find myself more on Don Colton's side of the fence. As much as we scientists claim that much of the confusion comes from a misunderstanding of the word "theory", I think we also over-state its importance. A theory is a conjecture based upon facts and scientific evidence. The theory itself is not a fact. It tries to explain the observed facts in a manner that can be tested. It is difficult to test many of the theory of evolution's predictions because they require millions of years. If we had the time we would know for sure. Evolution is a theory because the jury is still out. We could come across new data at any time that could revolutionize our understanding of life. Imagine if Einstein had been a biologist. The theory often referred to, in order to show that a theory is "really" a "fact" (or nigh unto it) is the theory of gravity. What scientists do not say is that our understanding of gravity can also be revolutionized by one scientific finding. Yes, it is well-established, but that has never kept a theory static before. I also think that scientists do themselves a disservice when they try to combine the theory of evolution and evolution itself in debates. They are two very separate things and should be taught that way. That creatures evolve has been demonstrated. That the theory of evolution is a completely, without question, and entirely accurate explanation of evolution has not been, and I doubt there are many "real" scientists that would ever make that claim unless they are debating a creationist. Joan Carmen wrote: "Let's teach facts, as best we know them, and not personal beliefs." This is what I also believe should be taught in school. I do not believe that ID has much of a place in school. Admittedly I have not read much about what their proposed curriculum is, so I probably should not dismiss it without reading up. But in any case, I think the science teachers should make a distinction in the class between what is known as fact and what is our "best guess" as to why the facts appear as they do. Also offer some other views - and these do not need to be ID. I am certain that there are slightly differing views about how the evolutionary facts are explained by the scientific community. I agree with the majority of the posters that religion should be taught at home and science at school. I just believe that the quality of science education could be better and more "scientific" - teaching fact as fact and theory as theory. This does not lessen the importance of the theory, but teaches it accurately, and accuracy is what we should be after as scientists, is it not? Aaron _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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There is hope
by Patrick Wiggins 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

Amongst all the threats of the diluting of science, it was a breath of fresh air to watch this evening's National Geographic Channel airing of "Conspiracy Moon Landing". Unlike the Fox network program on the same subject, this version interviewed both nay sayers and scientists. Science won. The program will be aired again as follows: August 6: 12:00PM August 11: 2:00PM August 12: 1:00AM Patrick

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RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion
by Lambert, Aaron 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

I'm a late comer to this discussion because I have been on vacation, but it has been a fun read. As a disclaimer, I find myself more on Don Colton's side of the fence. As much as we scientists claim that much of the confusion comes from a misunderstanding of the word "theory", I think we also over-state its importance. A theory is a conjecture based upon facts and scientific evidence. The theory itself is not a fact. It tries to explain the observed facts in a manner that can be tested. It is difficult to test many of the theory of evolution's predictions because they require millions of years. If we had the time we would know for sure. Evolution is a theory because the jury is still out. We could come across new data at any time that could revolutionize our understanding of life. Imagine if Einstein had been a biologist. The theory often referred to, in order to show that a theory is "really" a "fact" (or nigh unto it) is the theory of gravity. What scientists do not say is that our understanding of gravity can also be revolutionized by one scientific finding. Yes, it is well-established, but that has never kept a theory static before. I also think that scientists do themselves a disservice when they try to combine the theory of evolution and evolution itself in debates. They are two very separate things and should be taught that way. That creatures evolve has been demonstrated. That the theory of evolution is a completely, without question, and entirely accurate explanation of evolution has not been, and I doubt there are many "real" scientists that would ever make that claim unless they are debating a creationist. Joan Carmen wrote: "Let's teach facts, as best we know them, and not personal beliefs." This is what I also believe should be taught in school. I do not believe that ID has much of a place in school. Admittedly I have not read much about what their proposed curriculum is, so I probably should not dismiss it without reading up. But in any case, I think the science teachers should make a distinction in the class between what is known as fact and what is our "best guess" as to why the facts appear as they do. Also offer some other views - and these do not need to be ID. I am certain that there are slightly differing views about how the evolutionary facts are explained by the scientific community. I agree with the majority of the posters that religion should be taught at home and science at school. I just believe that the quality of science education could be better and more "scientific" - teaching fact as fact and theory as theory. This does not lessen the importance of the theory, but teaches it accurately, and accuracy is what we should be after as scientists, is it not? Aaron

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science vs. religion
by Kim Hyatt 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

Warning: The following is critical of President Bush. If you do disapprove, do not read on. News item (courtesy of Patrick Wiggins): Science Leader Says President Bush Confuses Science and Belief To the chagrin of scientists, President Bush said Monday he believes schools should discuss "intelligent design'' alongside evolution when teaching students about the creation of life. http://www.livescience.com/othernews/ap_050802_bush_design.html I think that scientists (professional and amateur alike) should speak out about this trend. Remember, there will likely be a bill introduced in Utah's next legislative session to require that Utah schools teach "intelligent design" alongside the theory of evolution. "Intelligent design" is the new catch phrase that proponents of creationism use to make this religious "theory" sound more scientific. I think of myself as a religious person, but I feel strongly that religionists should stop interfering with science. The Catholic Church used to do so and pursued that course to its logical end: the persecution, imprisonment and execution of scientists. Scientists don't pretend to instruct us about religion; unknowledgeable persons of faith shouldn't instruct us about science; politicians, including and especially Mr. Bush, shouldn't instruct us about either. I respect my friends (and those who are not my friends) who hold differing views. But, I believe that religion in any guise should only be taught in our homes and places of worship. I believe this to be a correct interpretation of the Constitution and I will oppose politicians and lobbyists such as the Eagle Forum who have said that they will work toward having intelligent design taught in public schools. This may open a barrel of snakes, but I think the persons of this group have a responsibility to protect science from interference from religionists. So, how do others feel? Kim

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RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion
by Joan Carman 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

Thanks Mike - and by the way, I love your disclaimer at the bottom! >>> mwkwan(a)sisna.com 08/05/2005 11:04 AM >>> Duane Jeffery, professor of zoology at BYU has written series of articles on this issue: http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/22/Lifestyle/70976.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design&sectionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/08/Lifestyle/70361.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design&sectionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/June/01/Lifestyle/70687.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intel ligent+design&sectionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&a uthorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages= &mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/25/Lifestyle/69498.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design&sectionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 http://archive.harktheherald.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/p rv/archive/2005/May/18/Lifestyle/69021.xml&start=20&numPer=20&keyword=intell igent+design&sectionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1997&enddate=12%2F31%2F2005&au thorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=&IncludeImages=& mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Heraldextra.com%0A%09%09%09 Michael W. Kwan Chances are high that one or more of the foregoing statements was intended as humor by an individual with little to no discernible sense of humor. No offense was intended to any person, animal, reglion, political party, spirit, race, ethinicity, gender, sexual orientation, plant, fungus or other as-of-yet-to-be-discovered form of life or death. If you find any statement to be offensive, I sincerely apologize and humbly beg for your forgiveness. -----Original Message----- From: utah-astronomy-bounces+mwkwan=sisna.com(a)mailman.xmission.com [mailto:utah-astronomy-bounces+mwkwan=sisna.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Joan Carman Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:44 AM To: kimharch(a)cut.net; utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion Kim Darn, I can't find it, but I just read it this morning. It is an article from the Daily Herald (Rich, can you help here?). A professor of Zoology at BYU wrote about testing ID. He used as examples the East Indian Gods Vishnu,________- and Shiva. Very well done. It goes straight to your concern. >>> kimharch(a)cut.net 08/05/2005 9:27 AM >>> Hey, Joe. Is there a chance that you'll be writing something to address this? I realize, of course, that you wouldn't wish to editorialize, but are our concerns regarding this issue worthy of an article? On a related matter, I appreciated Don's remarks about problems some scientists have with evolutionary theories and arguments in favor of intelligent design or something akin to it. However, Don, it wasn't clear to me whether or not you favor teaching these positions in the science classroom. For me, the issue isn't whether such opinions are valid or not, the issue is whether they are testable, and therefore, could be investigated scientifically. I don't recall if any of the sources you cited had any thoughts in this regard. If Joe or someone else were to write a piece for publication that highlights the concerns of many of us, I sure hope that you would address an alternative viewpoint. You seem to be more versed in arguments that question evolution than I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Carman" <jcarmen(a)utah.gov> To: <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com>; <mwkwan(a)sisna.com> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion | Thanks for the link Michael. An excellent editorial - and that's saying a lot for the SL Tribune. | | It is my guess that Buttars didn't receive a warm welcome when he proposed ID in schools in June and now with the help of Bush, who has let his deeply religious beliefs spill over in to secular/science based matters before, he thinks he will get a warmer reception in the DN (sorry Joe - it is owned by the LDS Church). Too bad the DN doesn't have a Letters to the Editor forum. | | | _______________________________________________ | Utah-Astronomy mailing list | Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com | http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy | Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com | | ______________________________________________________________________ | This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net | ______________________________________________________________________ | | _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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Re: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion
by Joan Carman 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

Kim Darn, I can't find it, but I just read it this morning. It is an article from the Daily Herald (Rich, can you help here?). A professor of Zoology at BYU wrote about testing ID. He used as examples the East Indian Gods Vishnu,________- and Shiva. Very well done. It goes straight to your concern. >>> kimharch(a)cut.net 08/05/2005 9:27 AM >>> Hey, Joe. Is there a chance that you'll be writing something to address this? I realize, of course, that you wouldn't wish to editorialize, but are our concerns regarding this issue worthy of an article? On a related matter, I appreciated Don's remarks about problems some scientists have with evolutionary theories and arguments in favor of intelligent design or something akin to it. However, Don, it wasn't clear to me whether or not you favor teaching these positions in the science classroom. For me, the issue isn't whether such opinions are valid or not, the issue is whether they are testable, and therefore, could be investigated scientifically. I don't recall if any of the sources you cited had any thoughts in this regard. If Joe or someone else were to write a piece for publication that highlights the concerns of many of us, I sure hope that you would address an alternative viewpoint. You seem to be more versed in arguments that question evolution than I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Carman" <jcarmen(a)utah.gov> To: <utah-astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com>; <mwkwan(a)sisna.com> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:10 AM Subject: RE: [Utah-astronomy] science and religion | Thanks for the link Michael. An excellent editorial - and that's saying a lot for the SL Tribune. | | It is my guess that Buttars didn't receive a warm welcome when he proposed ID in schools in June and now with the help of Bush, who has let his deeply religious beliefs spill over in to secular/science based matters before, he thinks he will get a warmer reception in the DN (sorry Joe - it is owned by the LDS Church). Too bad the DN doesn't have a Letters to the Editor forum. | | | _______________________________________________ | Utah-Astronomy mailing list | Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com | http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy | Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com | | ______________________________________________________________________ | This e-mail has been scanned by Cut.Net Managed Email Content Service, using Skeptic(tm) technology powered by MessageLabs. For more information on Cut.Nets Content Service, visit http://www.cut.net | ______________________________________________________________________ | | _______________________________________________ Utah-Astronomy mailing list Utah-Astronomy(a)mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/utah-astronomy Visit the Photo Gallery: http://www.utahastronomy.com

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New Images Posted
by Tyler Allred 05 Aug '05

05 Aug '05

Hi all. I just posted a couple of images to my gallery and I hope someone will enjoy seeing them. Here are the links to the thumbnails.... click the images for the larger versions. M31 - taken with a Takahashi Sky90 at f/4.5 http://www.utahastronomy.com/album16/Utah_Astronomy_M31_Lum M57 - taken with a Takahashi CN-212 at f/9.9 http://www.utahastronomy.com/album16/Utah_Astronomy_Ring Cheers, Tyler

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