Re: (usr-tc) 2.0.60 HDM Code
ER or Engineering Release Code is only available by calling to Tech Support, and then WE (Tech Support) must get permission to release the code. This is done so that we can document the use of these special codes to see if the fix the specific issue they are supposed address, and also to see if the new fix for one issue causes issues with any other processes in the code or product. If you wish to contact us, we're here 24x7. 3Com Tech Support (800) 231-8770 (please note that after hours support does require an after hours contract). I hope this helps. Todd ;-} Curt Shambeau <curt@execpc.com> on 10/12/99 11:35:09 AM Please respond to usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Sent by: Curt Shambeau <curt@execpc.com> To: usr-tc Mailing List <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> cc: (Todd Keister/MW/US/3Com) Subject: Re: (usr-tc) 2.0.60 HDM Code
Is anyone using HDM 2.0.60.0 code. It is an Engineering Release which implements a DSP reset whenever the DSP goes idle on both ports. It is a temporary fix to the hanging pair of modems problem, but I just wanted some feedback, if any was available, before we put it on any of our production modems.
Is this code posted someplace, or is it available only by calling their tech support department? --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Curtis V. Shambeau | curt@execpc.com | Senior Vice President | | ExecPC, Inc. - A Voyager.net company - NASDAQ Symbol: VOYN | --------------------------------------------------------------------- - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Thus spake Todd Keister
ER or Engineering Release Code is only available by calling to Tech Support, and then WE (Tech Support) must get permission to release the code.
Good grief, its getting worse. What's next? Are we going to have to get a note from our mother's to use ER code? Blech.
This is done so that we can document the use of these special codes to see if the fix the specific issue they are supposed address, and also to see if the new fix for one issue causes issues with any other processes in the code or product.
Is it at all possible that 3Com could ever *eliminate* beaurocracy in their processes rather than constantly adding layer upon layer of it?
I hope this helps.
Unfortunately, no, I doubt it really does. :/ Does anyone in upper management at 3Com listen to what we're saying? I sometimes get the distinct impression that they really don't give a crap what we feel. I guess that is progress though...we do have *some* people at 3Com listening to us now...even if they aren't the people making decisions on most of these things. Jeff "getting frustrated with 3Com idiocy again" McAdams - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
One of the few pleasures in life is telling the salesbot on the phone that I will NOT be renewing my support contract. For the amount it would cost to cover 2 chassis and a dozen DSP's, ARC's and NMC's they need to do alot better than they are now. They released NFAS code and OSPF beta code... whipee. Make the damned thing connect more reliabily and then worry about networking code (ala OSPF). Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Jeff Mcadams wrote:
Thus spake Todd Keister
ER or Engineering Release Code is only available by calling to Tech Support, and then WE (Tech Support) must get permission to release the code.
Good grief, its getting worse. What's next? Are we going to have to get a note from our mother's to use ER code? Blech.
This is done so that we can document the use of these special codes to see if the fix the specific issue they are supposed address, and also to see if the new fix for one issue causes issues with any other processes in the code or product.
Is it at all possible that 3Com could ever *eliminate* beaurocracy in their processes rather than constantly adding layer upon layer of it?
I hope this helps.
Unfortunately, no, I doubt it really does. :/
Does anyone in upper management at 3Com listen to what we're saying? I sometimes get the distinct impression that they really don't give a crap what we feel. I guess that is progress though...we do have *some* people at 3Com listening to us now...even if they aren't the people making decisions on most of these things.
Jeff "getting frustrated with 3Com idiocy again" McAdams
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-> One of the few pleasures in life is telling the salesbot on the phone that I -> will NOT be renewing my support contract. -> -> For the amount it would cost to cover 2 chassis and a dozen DSP's, ARC's and -> NMC's they need to do alot better than they are now. -> -> They released NFAS code and OSPF beta code... whipee. Make the damned thing -> connect more reliabily and then worry about networking code (ala OSPF). I too boycotted renewing my maintenance contract for almost a year for many of the same reasons you and others have expressed. I just downloaded all of the TC 3.6 stuff but am gunshy about upgrading the Hiperarc and DSP code. I got burned already on the 4.1.56-6 code that killed my webramps. I was actually on Ramp Networks website tonight and they have an engineering note specifically for TC w/HiPerArcs. They pretty much pointed the gun straight at 3Com. Back to the original point of your message I wonder how many of us have witheld revenue from 3Com over the maintenance contract issues ? I will say the process for purchasing the maintenance contract and getting it active was much much better this time (albeit I couldn't active it via the website due to some cgi problem) but the ole reliable fax machine came through with flying colors. Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
-> One of the few pleasures in life is telling the salesbot on the phone that I -> will NOT be renewing my support contract. -> -> For the amount it would cost to cover 2 chassis and a dozen DSP's, ARC's and -> NMC's they need to do alot better than they are now. -> -> They released NFAS code and OSPF beta code... whipee. Make the damned thing -> connect more reliabily and then worry about networking code (ala OSPF).
I too boycotted renewing my maintenance contract for almost a year for many of the same reasons you and others have expressed. I just downloaded all of the TC 3.6 stuff but am gunshy about upgrading the Hiperarc and DSP code. I got burned already on the 4.1.56-6 code that killed my webramps. I was actually on Ramp Networks website tonight and they have an engineering note specifically for TC w/HiPerArcs. They pretty much pointed the gun straight at 3Com. Back to the original point of your message I wonder how many of us have witheld revenue from 3Com over the maintenance contract issues ? I will say the process for purchasing the maintenance contract and getting it active was much much better this time (albeit I couldn't active it via the website due to some cgi problem) but the ole reliable fax machine came through with flying colors.
We have. I would be very happy to pay 3Com a fair price for maintenence contracts. We almost had a deal cinched and at the last minute they changed the price, and we never went with it. Once you are a certain size, and you have certain momentum, you are *always* buying dsp's every few weeks. So technically, if you just keep registering those numbers on totalservice, you will always be covered under 90 days support. This is bad for 3com though, so they really should fix the contract situation, so we can get real contracts. I just want software, I am not interested in there tech support. I have been working on TC hubs for years, setup dozens and dozens of them, and done just about everything worth doing on them. But I get subjected to calling into an 800 number, at 11pm, so that some guy who sounds half asleep can call me back with a piss poor (tired?) attitude, who probably has been working there like a few weeks, or months, and doesn't have anywhere near the experience I do on these hubs. "Did you try rebooting the chassis?"........... I feel I am in a constant battle with 3com, just to get code I have legitimate access too etc. I mean, if you buy a chassis that has TCS 3.5 on it, and you bought a support contract with TCS 3.5..........shouldn't your account still let you download the TCS 3.5 code forever? I mean, its not like they are giving you something you didn't already have........you paid for it, its not a newer version, its the version that was on the damn thing when you bought it! I can log into Cisco, and download any code on that site, no questions asked..........I can do that with a $250 2501 service contract. Do I screw Cisco? Hell no, because the contracts for *all* the stuff I have is just as good of a deal as the pricing on the 2501 contracts. You can bet that when people like myself need support contracts, its not because we don't know how to use the equipment, its because the stuff isn't working, we need fixes, we need to let 3com know it doesn't work.
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
I did just buy 4 DPS's and they did come with newer code than I had been running... I haven't upgraded from 1.x to the 2.x simply because it really didn't fix anything.. just added some features that I don't need. I recall the DSP contract at $250 per DSP.. that's a dozen cards that need covered (gotta have support for them all now). Seeing that I have called 3Com ZERO times this year (other than warranty repair) and the code I am running now seems to be OK it's a hard sell to pull almost $3K from me for support. I was 2 seconds from ordering my first Ascend box.... I will now go back and kick myself in the rear for buying DPS's. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Brian wrote:
I can log into Cisco, and download any code on that site, no questions asked..........I can do that with a $250 2501 service contract. Do I screw Cisco? Hell no, because the contracts for *all* the stuff I have is just as good of a deal as the pricing on the 2501 contracts.
You can bet that when people like myself need support contracts, its not because we don't know how to use the equipment, its because the stuff isn't working, we need fixes, we need to let 3com know it doesn't work.
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On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 farber@admin.f-tech.net wrote:
I did just buy 4 DPS's and they did come with newer code than I had been running... I haven't upgraded from 1.x to the 2.x simply because it really didn't fix anything.. just added some features that I don't need.
I recall the DSP contract at $250 per DSP.. that's a dozen cards that need
if someone has the "software only support" numbers for all the cards (nmc, arcs, dsp's) it would be cool to post that. Brian
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Brian wrote:
I can log into Cisco, and download any code on that site, no questions asked..........I can do that with a $250 2501 service contract. Do I screw Cisco? Hell no, because the contracts for *all* the stuff I have is just as good of a deal as the pricing on the 2501 contracts.
You can bet that when people like myself need support contracts, its not because we don't know how to use the equipment, its because the stuff isn't working, we need fixes, we need to let 3com know it doesn't work.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full support with download and telephone support. Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the tel support, and just pay for code updates. Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this "behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an engineering queue. I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone support staff access to the database created as a result of these pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, allowing us to view this database to obtain the status of a confirmed bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be of tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC code issues and status reports would be really great. Scot NJAccess -----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Brian Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 9:45 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) 2.0.60 HDM Code On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
-> One of the few pleasures in life is telling the salesbot on the phone that I -> will NOT be renewing my support contract. -> -> For the amount it would cost to cover 2 chassis and a dozen DSP's, ARC's and -> NMC's they need to do alot better than they are now. -> -> They released NFAS code and OSPF beta code... whipee. Make the damned thing -> connect more reliabily and then worry about networking code (ala OSPF).
I too boycotted renewing my maintenance contract for almost a year for many of the same reasons you and others have expressed. I just downloaded all of the TC 3.6 stuff but am gunshy about upgrading the Hiperarc and DSP code. I got burned already on the 4.1.56-6 code that killed my webramps. I was actually on Ramp Networks website tonight and they have an engineering note specifically for TC w/HiPerArcs. They pretty much pointed the gun straight at 3Com. Back to the original point of your message I wonder how many of us have witheld revenue from 3Com over the maintenance contract issues ? I will say the process for purchasing the maintenance contract and getting it active was much much better this time (albeit I couldn't active it via the website due to some cgi problem) but the ole reliable fax machine came through with flying colors.
We have. I would be very happy to pay 3Com a fair price for maintenence contracts. We almost had a deal cinched and at the last minute they changed the price, and we never went with it. Once you are a certain size, and you have certain momentum, you are *always* buying dsp's every few weeks. So technically, if you just keep registering those numbers on totalservice, you will always be covered under 90 days support. This is bad for 3com though, so they really should fix the contract situation, so we can get real contracts. I just want software, I am not interested in there tech support. I have been working on TC hubs for years, setup dozens and dozens of them, and done just about everything worth doing on them. But I get subjected to calling into an 800 number, at 11pm, so that some guy who sounds half asleep can call me back with a piss poor (tired?) attitude, who probably has been working there like a few weeks, or months, and doesn't have anywhere near the experience I do on these hubs. "Did you try rebooting the chassis?"........... I feel I am in a constant battle with 3com, just to get code I have legitimate access too etc. I mean, if you buy a chassis that has TCS 3.5 on it, and you bought a support contract with TCS 3.5..........shouldn't your account still let you download the TCS 3.5 code forever? I mean, its not like they are giving you something you didn't already have........you paid for it, its not a newer version, its the version that was on the damn thing when you bought it! I can log into Cisco, and download any code on that site, no questions asked..........I can do that with a $250 2501 service contract. Do I screw Cisco? Hell no, because the contracts for *all* the stuff I have is just as good of a deal as the pricing on the 2501 contracts. You can bet that when people like myself need support contracts, its not because we don't know how to use the equipment, its because the stuff isn't working, we need fixes, we need to let 3com know it doesn't work.
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Thus spake Scot Desort
I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full support with download and telephone support.
They already have a software only support contract...its just as ridiculous as the rest of them.
Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this "behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an engineering queue.
I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone support staff access to the database created as a result of these pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, allowing us to view this database to obtain the status of a confirmed bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be of tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC code issues and status reports would be really great.
I think Scot (it is just 1 "t" right?) has some very good points here that go hand in hand with my thoughts about beaurocracy (note the Subject: change :). 3Com does definitely work in a very behind the scenes, closed development environment. Don't worry 3Com, I'm not going to suggest you Open Source the Pilgrim code, however, perhaps 3Com could take some cues from the Open Source movement. By putting more layers of beaurocracy between the actual users and developers, there's just that much more insulation that filters out valid feedback. I reported that SNMP bug nearly 3 weeks ago and I have received *no* communication regarding it whatsoever. I've been holding off reporting it publicly waiting for 3Com to get a fix out for it, but I haven't a clue if that's forthcoming anytime soon or not. The last time I reported a 3Com bug it slipped through the cracks and made it through a whole new major release without getting fixed. Better communication between the developers and customers would fix this...if I knew that 3Com kept up good communication with someone who reported a problem regarding that problem and I weren't getting feedback about a problem I reported, then I'd know to call again and try again, or know to go forward with a public posting since it would seem that 3Com hasn't deemed it worthy to fix. However, given 3Com's unbelievably closed development environment, I haven't a clue if this thing is sitting in some engineer's queue somewhere to be fixed or not. (Even if it is in a queue somewhere, for a security bug like this, even that's unacceptable). 3Com needs to seriously open up to their customers here...remove many layers of beaurocracy (these two statements amount to the same thing), and get them more involved...maybe even make the engineering mailing lists and stuff publically available...get the customers in on the actual development process. Maybe making them publically available would be a bad idea (would end up with too much noise), but perhaps invite specific customers to join in? There are certainly a few people on this list that could give you some good feedback. I know...this is a pretty radical idea...maybe it doesn't need to go this far, but just something that one of my co-workers and I were discussing the other day. Regardless of how its done, 3Com *definitely* needs to open up to their customers more. When, in the course of 2-3 days on a mailing list, 4 or 5 *MAJOR* issues can be mentioned that are still unaddressed after about a year for each...something needs to be done. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Jeff Mcadams wrote:
They already have a software only support contract...its just as ridiculous as the rest of them.
Geez, didn't realize that. So I guess the pricing is not attractive? We all want free, but if it were only a nominal charge, that might have helped ;-(
I think Scot (it is just 1 "t" right?) has some very good points here
Yep, 1 't'. Thanks for noticing :-)
Better communication between the developers and customers would fix this...if I knew that 3Com kept up good communication with someone who reported a problem regarding that problem and I weren't getting feedback about a problem I reported, then I'd know to call again and try again, or know to go forward with a public posting since it would seem that 3Com hasn't deemed it worthy to fix. However, given 3Com's unbelievably closed development environment, I haven't a clue if this thing is sitting in some engineer's queue somewhere to be fixed or not. (Even if it is in a queue somewhere, for a security bug like this, even that's unacceptable).
Exactly. Not knowing what's being done only adds to the frustration and resentment.
3Com needs to seriously open up to their customers here...remove many layers of beaurocracy (these two statements amount to the same thing), and get them more involved...maybe even make the engineering mailing lists and stuff publically available...get the customers in on the actual development process. Maybe making them publically available would be a bad idea (would end up with too much noise), but perhaps invite specific customers to join in? There are certainly a few people on this list that could give you some good feedback. I know...this is a pretty radical idea...maybe it doesn't need to go this far, but just something that one of my co-workers and I were discussing the other day. Regardless of how its done, 3Com *definitely* needs to open up to their customers more. When, in the course of 2-3 days on a mailing list, 4 or 5 *MAJOR* issues can be mentioned that are still unaddressed after about a year for each...something needs to be done.
Hopefully something will change soon. It's a shame that something as basic as the lack of close interaction with the user base is keeping the TC product line from truly standing out in the NAS arena. 3COM, as you've stated in the past many times, really has something special on their hands, and the TC platform can do so much more. But until these basic code issues and responsiveness to the needs of the users is addressed, the platform may become doomed before it matures. -Scot NJAccess - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
"the platform may become doomed before it matures." It has had years to mature... I believe it was actually further along and more mature when USR had it. I mean OSPF is just now being released. Other platforms have had OSPF for over 2 years. From what I understand before 3com took over many things were slated to be done but dropped. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Scot Desort <scot@njaccess.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:06 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Beaurocracy issues ;) Jeff Mcadams wrote:
They already have a software only support contract...its just as ridiculous as the rest of them.
Geez, didn't realize that. So I guess the pricing is not attractive? We all want free, but if it were only a nominal charge, that might have helped ;-(
I think Scot (it is just 1 "t" right?) has some very good points here
Yep, 1 't'. Thanks for noticing :-)
Better communication between the developers and customers would fix this...if I knew that 3Com kept up good communication with someone who reported a problem regarding that problem and I weren't getting feedback about a problem I reported, then I'd know to call again and try again, or know to go forward with a public posting since it would seem that 3Com hasn't deemed it worthy to fix. However, given 3Com's unbelievably closed development environment, I haven't a clue if this thing is sitting in some engineer's queue somewhere to be fixed or not. (Even if it is in a queue somewhere, for a security bug like this, even that's unacceptable).
Exactly. Not knowing what's being done only adds to the frustration and resentment.
3Com needs to seriously open up to their customers here...remove many layers of beaurocracy (these two statements amount to the same thing), and get them more involved...maybe even make the engineering mailing lists and stuff publically available...get the customers in on the actual development process. Maybe making them publically available would be a bad idea (would end up with too much noise), but perhaps invite specific customers to join in? There are certainly a few people on this list that could give you some good feedback. I know...this is a pretty radical idea...maybe it doesn't need to go this far, but just something that one of my co-workers and I were discussing the other day. Regardless of how its done, 3Com *definitely* needs to open up to their customers more. When, in the course of 2-3 days on a mailing list, 4 or 5 *MAJOR* issues can be mentioned that are still unaddressed after about a year for each...something needs to be done.
Hopefully something will change soon. It's a shame that something as basic as the lack of close interaction with the user base is keeping the TC product line from truly standing out in the NAS arena. 3COM, as you've stated in the past many times, really has something special on their hands, and the TC platform can do so much more. But until these basic code issues and responsiveness to the needs of the users is addressed, the platform may become doomed before it matures. -Scot NJAccess - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Thus spake Ed
"the platform may become doomed before it matures."
It has had years to mature... I believe it was actually further along and more mature when USR had it. I mean OSPF is just now being released. Other platforms have had OSPF for over 2 years. From what I understand before 3com took over many things were slated to be done but dropped.
In all fairness...OSPF was on the engineering todo list for quite some time at USR before they got bought by 3Com...the word I received was that the engineers kept pulling it off because "it was too hard". I suspect 3Com had enough resources to put OSPF in the thing when USR just didn't have enough resources (read, number of engineers) to do that and still keep the rest of the development up on the platform. Having said that though...I agree...I do think the maturity of the TC platform is behind what it could be...it is maturing...but I think it could do so at a much faster pace. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Thus spake Scot Desort
Jeff Mcadams wrote:
They already have a software only support contract...its just as ridiculous as the rest of them.
Geez, didn't realize that. So I guess the pricing is not attractive? We all want free, but if it were only a nominal charge, that might have helped ;-(
Yah...its still done on a $x/48-port chassis basis, which, for software only, makes even less sense. :/ And because 3Com is so concerned about someone buying support on one chassis and having 10 that they don't have support on, they still require you, with the software-only, to buy support on *all* of your equipment equally. *blam*, it was dead before it even got out of the starting blocks for us. And, of course, when we called to complain about it, we got a call from the head of support contracts who's point in calling was to explain to us what options were available...again, he was totally unwilling to give any thought to the idea that maybe, just maybe, there was a better way to do things...totally blew off our concerns. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Jeff McAdams wrote: "we got a call from the head of support contracts who's point in calling was to explain to us what options were available...again, he was totally unwilling to give any thought to the idea that maybe, just maybe, there was a better way to do things...totally blew off our concerns." Oh you got one of those calls too? ;-) I told him 3com was only trying to make a Profit on Support... I told him I always considered Support an Expense and then prodeceed to explain to him how much I cared for his call. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Mcadams <jeffm@iglou.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:21 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Beaurocracy issues ;) Thus spake Scot Desort
Jeff Mcadams wrote:
They already have a software only support contract...its just as ridiculous as the rest of them.
Geez, didn't realize that. So I guess the pricing is not attractive? We all want free, but if it were only a nominal charge, that might have helped ;-(
Yah...its still done on a $x/48-port chassis basis, which, for software only, makes even less sense. :/ And because 3Com is so concerned about someone buying support on one chassis and having 10 that they don't have support on, they still require you, with the software-only, to buy support on *all* of your equipment equally. *blam*, it was dead before it even got out of the starting blocks for us. And, of course, when we called to complain about it, we got a call from the head of support contracts who's point in calling was to explain to us what options were available...again, he was totally unwilling to give any thought to the idea that maybe, just maybe, there was a better way to do things...totally blew off our concerns. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Thus spake Ed
Jeff McAdams wrote: "we got a call from the head of support contracts who's point in calling was to explain to us what options were available...again, he was totally unwilling to give any thought to the idea that maybe, just maybe, there was a better way to do things...totally blew off our concerns."
Oh you got one of those calls too? ;-)
Well...this was after complaining to high heaven to our sales rep who forwarded our complaints on to this guy...then he didn't even call to try to address our complaints...just to tell us what was available in support contracts. We already bloody knew what was available as far as support contracts were concerned...that's why we were complaining! :)
I told him 3com was only trying to make a Profit on Support...
I was basically told, at one point, that 3Com didn't want to do anything that wasn't "revenue positive." You can imagine the response that brought.
I told him I always considered Support an Expense and then prodeceed to explain to him how much I cared for his call.
Heh...yeah...my co-admin took the call here...he let the guy know, in no uncertain terms, what we thought of the call and the support contract situation in general...like I said...he totally blew us off...we were never contacted again about that subject. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Jeff McAdams wrote: "Well...this was after complaining to high heaven to our sales rep who forwarded our complaints on to this guy..." Yes thats what happened to us... we complained and this guy called to let us know our options. Funny how everyone feels the same way and 3com continues to push this. If we all switched platforms I am sure they would begin to listen to the few customers that remain. Many companies out there would gladly take our stuff on trade on a port for port program. I just keep hoping 3com will wake up and listen... my patience is running thin though as I am sure are others. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Mcadams <jeffm@iglou.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 1:02 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Beaurocracy issues ;) Thus spake Ed
Jeff McAdams wrote: "we got a call from the head of support contracts who's point in calling was to explain to us what options were available...again, he was totally unwilling to give any thought to the idea that maybe, just maybe, there was a better way to do things...totally blew off our concerns."
Oh you got one of those calls too? ;-)
Well...this was after complaining to high heaven to our sales rep who forwarded our complaints on to this guy...then he didn't even call to try to address our complaints...just to tell us what was available in support contracts. We already bloody knew what was available as far as support contracts were concerned...that's why we were complaining! :)
I told him 3com was only trying to make a Profit on Support...
I was basically told, at one point, that 3Com didn't want to do anything that wasn't "revenue positive." You can imagine the response that brought.
I told him I always considered Support an Expense and then prodeceed to explain to him how much I cared for his call.
Heh...yeah...my co-admin took the call here...he let the guy know, in no uncertain terms, what we thought of the call and the support contract situation in general...like I said...he totally blew us off...we were never contacted again about that subject. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Stockholders can get results. Has anyone mentioned any of these concerns on any of the 3COM stock discussion forums, on RagingBull.com for example? Randy
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Mcadams Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 11:02 AM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Beaurocracy issues ;)
Thus spake Ed
Jeff McAdams wrote: "we got a call from the head of support contracts who's point in calling was to explain to us what options were available...again, he was totally unwilling to give any thought to the idea that maybe, just maybe, there was a better way to do things...totally blew off our concerns."
Oh you got one of those calls too? ;-)
Well...this was after complaining to high heaven to our sales rep who forwarded our complaints on to this guy...then he didn't even call to try to address our complaints...just to tell us what was available in support contracts. We already bloody knew what was available as far as support contracts were concerned...that's why we were complaining! :)
I told him 3com was only trying to make a Profit on Support...
I was basically told, at one point, that 3Com didn't want to do anything that wasn't "revenue positive." You can imagine the response that brought.
I told him I always considered Support an Expense and then prodeceed to explain to him how much I cared for his call.
Heh...yeah...my co-admin took the call here...he let the guy know, in no uncertain terms, what we thought of the call and the support contract situation in general...like I said...he totally blew us off...we were never contacted again about that subject. -- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456
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They may not be listening to you guys, but they are sure interested in feedback for presales! https://rap.prognostics.com/svy/3comPresales/2855-1.asp?doc_num=3comsales |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com |[mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Ed |Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:40 PM |To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com |Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Beaurocracy issues ;) | | |Jeff McAdams wrote: |"we got a call from the head of support contracts who's point |in calling was |to explain to us what options were available...again, he was totally |unwilling to give any thought to the idea that maybe, just |maybe, there was |a better way to do things...totally blew off our concerns." | |Oh you got one of those calls too? ;-) | |I told him 3com was only trying to make a Profit on Support... |I told him I |always considered Support an Expense and then prodeceed to |explain to him |how much I cared for his call. | | |Ed | |----- Original Message ----- |From: Jeff Mcadams <jeffm@iglou.com> |To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> |Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:21 PM |Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Beaurocracy issues ;) | | |Thus spake Scot Desort |>Jeff Mcadams wrote: |>> They already have a software only support contract...its just as |>> ridiculous as the rest of them. | |>Geez, didn't realize that. So I guess the pricing is not |attractive? We all |>want free, but if it were only a nominal charge, that might |have helped ;-( | |Yah...its still done on a $x/48-port chassis basis, which, for software |only, makes even less sense. :/ And because 3Com is so |concerned about |someone buying support on one chassis and having 10 that they |don't have |support on, they still require you, with the software-only, to buy |support on *all* of your equipment equally. *blam*, it was dead before |it even got out of the starting blocks for us. And, of course, when we |called to complain about it, we got a call from the head of support |contracts who's point in calling was to explain to us what options were |available...again, he was totally unwilling to give any thought to the |idea that maybe, just maybe, there was a better way to do |things...totally blew off our concerns. |-- |Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com |Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 |IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456 | |- | To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" | with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. | For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send | "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. | | | |- | To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" | with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. | For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send | "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. | - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Mcadams wrote:
Thus spake Scot Desort
Jeff Mcadams wrote:
They already have a software only support contract...its just as ridiculous as the rest of them.
Geez, didn't realize that. So I guess the pricing is not attractive? We all want free, but if it were only a nominal charge, that might have helped ;-(
Yah...its still done on a $x/48-port chassis basis, which, for software only, makes even less sense. :/ And because 3Com is so concerned about someone buying support on one chassis and having 10 that they don't have support on, they still require you, with the software-only, to buy support on *all* of your equipment equally. *blam*, it was dead before it even got out of the starting blocks for us. And, of course, when we called to complain about it, we got a call from the head of support contracts who's point in calling was to explain to us what options were available...again, he was totally unwilling to give any thought to the idea that maybe, just maybe, there was a better way to do things...totally blew off our concerns.
They don't want to budge. They lose money over this. If you make a good product, one that doesn't have problems, that is how you keep support down. Good documentation, good code, good compatibility.
-- Jeff McAdams Email: jeffm@iglou.com Head Network Administrator Voice: (502) 966-3848 IgLou Internet Services (800) 436-4456
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half of the full service contracts. Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support. U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates. U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue. U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great. U>Scot U>NJAccess CMPQwk 1.42 9999 - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half of the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying: -rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?" -me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts." -rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis" -me: "Yes." -rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?" -me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off." I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance. I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is." Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features... Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
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I got one of them last week! I tried to just cover a chassis that I wanted to test out the "newer" features with. Like OSPF, tunneling, etc. They said you need all your chassis covered and you cannot get just the support you *WANT*. Even though I just purchased 4 DPS's and have 90 days free support.. they (the nice 3com lady said that they don't do just certain cards.. and that she would need to see an inventory of all the cards I owned). I think not. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half of the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying:
-rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts."
-rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis"
-me: "Yes."
-rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off."
I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance.
I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is."
Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features...
Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
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On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 farber@admin.f-tech.net wrote:
I got one of them last week! I tried to just cover a chassis that I wanted to test out the "newer" features with. Like OSPF, tunneling, etc. They said you need all your chassis covered and you cannot get just the support you *WANT*.
Even though I just purchased 4 DPS's and have 90 days free support.. they (the nice 3com lady said that they don't do just certain cards.. and that she would need to see an inventory of all the cards I owned).
I think not.
They don't want to come to an agreement. So you are forced into the back alley 3com warez scene (which by the way is quite happening *jk*), and using 90 day support. I don't want to live from 90 days to 90 days at a time. I can do it though, all you have to do is add roughly 48 ports every 3 months.......but i would rather have a good solid software contract.......
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half of the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying:
-rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts."
-rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis"
-me: "Yes."
-rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off."
I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance.
I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is."
Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features...
Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Brian wrote:
They don't want to come to an agreement. So you are forced into the back alley 3com warez scene (which by the way is quite happening *jk*)
I keep looking for alt.binaries.warez.3com, but never see it. (: - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Charles you are correct and have hit it on the nose. We also have Cisco and they have helped us greatly when we had no contract. After they assisted us several times without a hassle I asked them what would contracts cost and they told me... get this... we purchased them because of their attitude toward us. They are more than helpful and I believe this is the basic concept behind their enormous success... "Proud to own a CISCO". It is almost like gold. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Sprickman <spork@inch.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:25 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half of the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying: -rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?" -me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts." -rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis" -me: "Yes." -rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?" -me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off." I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance. I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is." Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features... Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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I had the same shit happen. She couldn't get it thru her head that we had SOLD half the stuff they had us listed down for. We SOLD it because it was quad modem technology and its a good thing too, because we would be screwed had we not sold, and 3com doesn't make a support contract to fix you if you got a quad chassis.......not good enough anyways, its all EOL'ed. It took I want to say 18+ months of negotiations between our 3com rep, us, and 3com support contract people. To this day we have not been able to get contracts because we can't come to an agreement on how the stuff should be priced. On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half of the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying:
-rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts."
-rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis"
-me: "Yes."
-rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off."
I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance.
I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is."
Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features...
Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the 3Com booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then... ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian <signal@shreve.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:50 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
I had the same shit happen. She couldn't get it thru her head that we had SOLD half the stuff they had us listed down for. We SOLD it because it was quad modem technology and its a good thing too, because we would be screwed had we not sold, and 3com doesn't make a support contract to fix you if you got a quad chassis.......not good enough anyways, its all EOL'ed.
It took I want to say 18+ months of negotiations between our 3com rep, us, and 3com support contract people. To this day we have not been able to get contracts because we can't come to an agreement on how the stuff should be priced.
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half
of
the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying:
-rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts."
-rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis"
-me: "Yes."
-rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off."
I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance.
I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is."
Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features...
Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881)
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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Sounds like a Great Idea! Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Sheldon Koehler <sheldon@tenforward.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 9:46 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the 3Com booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then... ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian <signal@shreve.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:50 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
I had the same shit happen. She couldn't get it thru her head that we had SOLD half the stuff they had us listed down for. We SOLD it because it was quad modem technology and its a good thing too, because we would be screwed had we not sold, and 3com doesn't make a support contract to fix you if you got a quad chassis.......not good enough anyways, its all EOL'ed.
It took I want to say 18+ months of negotiations between our 3com rep, us, and 3com support contract people. To this day we have not been able to get contracts because we can't come to an agreement on how the stuff should be priced.
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half
of
the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying:
-rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts."
-rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis"
-me: "Yes."
-rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off."
I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance.
I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is."
Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features...
Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881)
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Sorry, but only people with service contracts can visit the 3Com booth. Sheldon Koehler wrote:
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the 3Com booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then...
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian <signal@shreve.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:50 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
I had the same shit happen. She couldn't get it thru her head that we had SOLD half the stuff they had us listed down for. We SOLD it because it was quad modem technology and its a good thing too, because we would be screwed had we not sold, and 3com doesn't make a support contract to fix you if you got a quad chassis.......not good enough anyways, its all EOL'ed.
It took I want to say 18+ months of negotiations between our 3com rep, us, and 3com support contract people. To this day we have not been able to get contracts because we can't come to an agreement on how the stuff should be priced.
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've seen them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half
of
the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying:
-rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts."
-rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis"
-me: "Yes."
-rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off."
I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance.
I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is."
Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features...
Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881)
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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-- Richard Lorbieski - richard@alpha1.net Chief Technical Officer - Senior System Administrator Alpha1 Internet http://www.alpha1.net 409.731.8236 - 877.4.alpha1 (877.425.7421) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
I cannot believe how many people keep coming out of the woodwork that feel the same way about 3com's support issues. Seems like everyone is disgruntled about it. When you speak to 3com they tell you people are happy and like the changes being made and you are the only one complaining. What a smoke screen. I believe 3com Executives and Stockholders should actually read this list sometime... Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Lorbieski <richard@alpha1.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 10:40 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C Sorry, but only people with service contracts can visit the 3Com booth. Sheldon Koehler wrote:
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the 3Com booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then...
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian <signal@shreve.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:50 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
I had the same shit happen. She couldn't get it thru her head that we
had
SOLD half the stuff they had us listed down for. We SOLD it because it was quad modem technology and its a good thing too, because we would be screwed had we not sold, and 3com doesn't make a support contract to fix you if you got a quad chassis.......not good enough anyways, its all EOL'ed.
It took I want to say 18+ months of negotiations between our 3com rep, us, and 3com support contract people. To this day we have not been able to get contracts because we can't come to an agreement on how the stuff should be priced.
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've
seen
them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half of the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying:
-rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts."
-rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis"
-me: "Yes."
-rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off."
I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance.
I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is."
Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features...
Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881)
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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-- Richard Lorbieski - richard@alpha1.net Chief Technical Officer - Senior System Administrator Alpha1 Internet http://www.alpha1.net 409.731.8236 - 877.4.alpha1 (877.425.7421) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
I have never been happy with the service contracts and I plan on voicing it at ISPCon in two weeks. I am also going to talk with Cisco again. As a USR user for over 13 years, I wanted to remain loyal as in the past I felt I was treated very well. But not since the 3Com takeover. My current contract expires in February 2000 and at this time, I will not renew if I have to purchase contracts on all of my quad chassis as well as my DSP ones. I do not like being forced to buy a contract on anything, let alone a product that is acknowledged EOL by the company. I am going to talk to my stock broker tomorrow about how to let stock holders know how we feel... ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed <ed@taylors.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 8:03 PM Subject: (usr-tc) 3com Support Woes
I cannot believe how many people keep coming out of the woodwork that feel the same way about 3com's support issues. Seems like everyone is disgruntled about it. When you speak to 3com they tell you people are happy and like the changes being made and you are the only one complaining. What a smoke screen.
I believe 3com Executives and Stockholders should actually read this list sometime...
Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Lorbieski <richard@alpha1.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 10:40 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
Sorry, but only people with service contracts can visit the 3Com booth.
Sheldon Koehler wrote:
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the
3Com
booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then...
----- Original Message ----- From: Brian <signal@shreve.net> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:50 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
I had the same shit happen. She couldn't get it thru her head that we
had
SOLD half the stuff they had us listed down for. We SOLD it because it was quad modem technology and its a good thing too, because we would be screwed had we not sold, and 3com doesn't make a support contract to fix you if you got a quad chassis.......not good enough anyways, its all EOL'ed.
It took I want to say 18+ months of negotiations between our 3com rep, us, and 3com support contract people. To this day we have not been able to get contracts because we can't come to an agreement on how the stuff should be priced.
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Charles Sprickman wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
Unless I am mistaken they do offer software only contracts. I've
seen
them on Tech Data's price listing. They are generally less than half of the full service contracts.
They are still pricey. And on top of the price, we started getting harrassing phone calls from some lackey in the 'service contract' department saying:
-rude 3Com lady: "Are you SUUUURE that you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Yes. That's why I bought X contracts."
-rude 3Com lady: "Well you HAVE to buy a contract for each chassis"
-me: "Yes."
-rude 3Com lady: "You're SUUURE you only have X chassis?"
-me: "Tell you what. Put me down for one, I'm selling the rest of this crap off."
I didn't even buy direct from 3Com, but via a reseller. They apparently have the time and money to put losers like this on the phone to harass customers about the number of contracts they have versus the number of chassis they've purchased in the last 3 years. What a waste. What arrogance.
I'll mention also that I have contracts (24x7x4) on our high-end Cisco routers that cost LESS than putting full support with no "spare-in-the-air" support on all our TCH stuff. And I've been told by numerous Cisco employees; support, sales, engineering that they let people slide on most support/software issues. They frown on 'version jumping' where you go and thieve say IOS w/Firewall support when you bought basic IP, but I've had so many instances where I've received support/software on equipment with no contract. I've even told the guy on the phone "I have no contract" and the basic response is "We want you to be happy. Your hardware fried? We'll send you new... You need IOS 12.x to fix this bug? Here it is."
Why can't 3Com adopt at least some of this attitude? It's not like Pilgrim is feature-packed like IOS, we're all just looking for solid connects and standard routing features...
Charles
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
U>I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their U>service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full U>support with download and telephone support.
U>Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from U>the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when U>you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the U>hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or U>at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the U>tel support, and just pay for code updates.
U>Does any of this matter to those on this list that are complaining U>about 3COM's lack of timely response to code issues? Probably not. U>Should 3COM redirect it's efforts to resolving these issues? Yep. U>Should they perhaps head-up a small team (1 person) to field code U>enhancement and bug fix requests, both from an email/web input area on U>the 3COM ISP pages, but also through monitoring of this list and the U>totalcontol newsgroups? Absolutely. 3COM may already be doing this U>"behind the scenes", quietly tracking and logging this stuff, but it's U>apparent that the people who need to know the most that it's being U>done and being worked on, the ISP customers, don't know that someone U>has acknowledged the problem and it has been placed into an U>engineering queue.
U>I think that things like this would greatly improve 3COM's image among U>it's ISP customers, and even more so if they acted expediently on U>these issues that trouble so many on this list. Give the telephone U>support staff access to the database created as a result of these U>pages (hell, give us access to these pages as well, even WITHOUT a U>contract). Tie the ER/SR releases to the database, so it's easier to U>identify which bug is fixed with which release. And most importantly, U>of allowing us to view this database to obtain the status a confirmed U>of bug and it's up-to-date progress in getting resolved would be U>tremendous benefit. To know that someone is actually WORKING on Jeff's U>SNMP issue by simply searching the database is comforting (knowing that U>it will be fixed QUICKLY is even better). Some of this status U>information may already be in the 3KB, but a dedicated database for TC U>code issues and status reports would be really great.
U>Scot U>NJAccess
CMPQwk 1.42 9999
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881)
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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--
Richard Lorbieski - richard@alpha1.net Chief Technical Officer - Senior System Administrator Alpha1 Internet http://www.alpha1.net 409.731.8236 - 877.4.alpha1 (877.425.7421)
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Great Idea !! Why don't we all have a mass (OPEN) meeting with 3com at ISPCon. The other vendors will send people in as well and will get plenty of ammo for their executives that actually listen to their customer's complaints. If 3com changes everything that night with a big announcement (hint hint) about cost effective hardware/technical support and software only support, then everyone, except the snoops from other companies, will be happy! A win-win for everyone if 3C want's our continued business. Buy customer's happiness through goodwill instead of ball parks. Marshall Morgan President Internet Doorway, Inc (aka NETDOOR) http://www.netdoor.com 601.969.1434 x28 | 800.952.1570 x28 | 601.969.3629 x28 | Fax 601.969.3838
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Richard Lorbieski Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 9:41 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
Sorry, but only people with service contracts can visit the 3Com booth.
Sheldon Koehler wrote:
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the 3Com booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then...
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Marshall wrote: "Buy customer's happiness through goodwill instead of ball parks" Thats a good one ;-) Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Marshall Morgan <marshall@netdoor.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 2:10 AM Subject: (usr-tc) ISPCon/3Com Open Meeting Great Idea !! Why don't we all have a mass (OPEN) meeting with 3com at ISPCon. The other vendors will send people in as well and will get plenty of ammo for their executives that actually listen to their customer's complaints. If 3com changes everything that night with a big announcement (hint hint) about cost effective hardware/technical support and software only support, then everyone, except the snoops from other companies, will be happy! A win-win for everyone if 3C want's our continued business. Buy customer's happiness through goodwill instead of ball parks. Marshall Morgan President Internet Doorway, Inc (aka NETDOOR) http://www.netdoor.com 601.969.1434 x28 | 800.952.1570 x28 | 601.969.3629 x28 | Fax 601.969.3838
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Richard Lorbieski Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 9:41 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
Sorry, but only people with service contracts can visit the 3Com booth.
Sheldon Koehler wrote:
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the
3Com
booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then...
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Speaking of ball parks... What if 3Com really managed 3Com Park? It should go like this: Three friends and myself went to a baseball game at 3Com park. The ticket prices were not only based on seating location, but also on your size. So my ticket was 25.34, and my friends paid 12.56, 17.45, and 21.92 (plus tax). Concessions: They ONLY served hots dogs, fries and Pepsi. Beer was available but only if you had a beer drinking permit for $5.00. However, since I was with my 3 friends (2 of them don't drink beer), I had to purchase a permit for all of us ($20 total). They had two kinds of beer - 3Com and 3Com Lite. 3Com Lite was brewed several years ago by a company call Livingston and it had a bitter after taste but I learned about this AFTER I bought my 3Com Lite. I went back to the counter wanting to get a fresher beer or at least get my money back. I was told by the manager that they are phasing out 3Com Lite and my only option was I could buy 2 regular 3Com beers and then trade in my 3Com Lite and get the third 3Com beer for free. Restrooms: Restrooms were opened to the general public ONLY between innings. If you needed to use the restroom during the game, you had to purchase a restroom contract, however, if the game goes into extra innings, you would have to pay extra. I had to go really bad during the third inning, so I purchased a contract for $5. However, since I was with my 3 friends, I had to pay $20. Well, by the time I got my restroom contract, it was the end of the third inning. So I had to wait in line with everyone else even though I had a special contract. Once I made it through the restroom door, there was yet another door with another 3Com rep.in front of it. This time I had to show receipts for my food/drink I purchased at the game, otherwise I would have to pay another special disposal fee. I finally got to the toilet stall but notice there was shredded newspaper instead of toilet paper. I asked what happened to the toilet paper. I was told 3Com sells single ply non-perferated toilet paper at the counter at the back of the restroom. "Single ply?", I said. "Yeah, we are working on a 2 ply perferated paper and should have it available next week.", the 3Com rep blurted. Moreover, since I had a restroom contract, I could trade in my single ply for the 2 ply when it became available! The rolls were $2 dollars each, but since I was with my 3 friends, I had to purchase 4 rolls. After I relieved myself, I went to wash my hands. Instead of paper towels, there was shredded newspaper. I went back to the restroom counter and asked about the towels. Great news! 3Com just released their 50 pack paper towels. I can get them for $3 dollars a pack, but guess what, I had to purchase 4 packs. I thought, screwed the towels, I'll use toilet paper. Wrong! Someone beside me was being ejected from the primises for drying his hands with toilet paper. I learned later his restroom contract was canceled. Anyway, I paid for the paper towels... Just before I exited the restroom, I was reminded that the toilet paper and paper towels could only be used at this restroom and if I went to a different restroom, I would have to pay again. Oh yeah, the restroom contract is only good for THAT restroom! It was the start of the 6th inning. I decided to make another trip to the restroom. I had all my paperwork in order this time so it wasn't a long wait. But I was detained because it was less than 30 minutes since my last restroom visit. I was pulled over to the side and questioned by 2 other 3Com ushers. I was asked repeatedly if I was sure I'm going to the restroom because the result of the 3Com food. They suspected that it must be something other than their food or maybe I was ill. So, I was examined by a 3Com doctor, but before he would EVEN talk to me. I had to present him with my restroom contract and food receipts. He determined there was nothing wrong on their end and I must purchase the special desposal fee for $10 (but paid $40 because of my buddies). Now I had everything in order. Just before I got to the urinal, I was grabbed by a 3Com usher. He told me that I can only use the same toilet I used on my first visit and was not allowed to use any of the other urinals or toilets. I had to wait 5 more minutes because "my stall" was used by another person - and he didn't have a contract! FINAL INSULT: The game went into extra innings so we had to cough up $10 each plus $20 more for my other friends - even though they left early because of an emergency. You may think this is silly. But this is how I feel 3Com treats Total Control Chassis owners. Ed wrote:
Marshall wrote: "Buy customer's happiness through goodwill instead of ball parks"
Thats a good one ;-)
Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: Marshall Morgan <marshall@netdoor.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 2:10 AM Subject: (usr-tc) ISPCon/3Com Open Meeting
Great Idea !!
Why don't we all have a mass (OPEN) meeting with 3com at ISPCon. The other vendors will send people in as well and will get plenty of ammo for their executives that actually listen to their customer's complaints. If 3com changes everything that night with a big announcement (hint hint) about cost effective hardware/technical support and software only support, then everyone, except the snoops from other companies, will be happy!
A win-win for everyone if 3C want's our continued business. Buy customer's happiness through goodwill instead of ball parks.
Marshall Morgan President
Internet Doorway, Inc (aka NETDOOR) http://www.netdoor.com
601.969.1434 x28 | 800.952.1570 x28 | 601.969.3629 x28 | Fax 601.969.3838
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Richard Lorbieski Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 9:41 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
Sorry, but only people with service contracts can visit the 3Com booth.
Sheldon Koehler wrote:
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the
3Com
booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then...
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-- Richard Lorbieski - richard@alpha1.net Chief Technical Officer - Senior System Administrator Alpha1 Internet http://www.alpha1.net 409.731.8236 - 877.4.alpha1 (877.425.7421) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Great analogy, if only someone from 3Com gave a damn!! This should be on every bulletin board in every 3Com building. At 03:01 PM 10/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
Speaking of ball parks... What if 3Com really managed 3Com Park?
It should go like this:
Three friends and myself went to a baseball game at 3Com park. The ticket prices were not only based on seating location, but also on your size. So my ticket was 25.34, and my friends paid 12.56, 17.45, and 21.92 (plus tax).
Concessions:
Thanks, Greg Coffey <gcoffey@vcn.com> Visionary Communications V 307-234-5443 F 307-234-5446 100 N. Center, Casper, WY 82601 www.vcn.com - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Richard Lorbieski wrote:
You may think this is silly. But this is how I feel 3Com treats Total Control Chassis owners.
I've mentioned my theory of 3com's attitude on here before, but maybe time to do so again, working it into your analogy.... You see, this 3com Park ballfield really isn't designed for individual fans....a guy bringing a couple friends to the game is just rif-raf; troublesome whiners who always complain about dirty seats and always having to scrape their change up to buy a hot dog. At 3com Park, there's a new business model, y'see. There's a lot of BigTime companies who have vast amounts of money to toss around....companies who are quite used to (and even expect) expensive service contracts. And these companies aren't interested in four seats at a ball game, they are interested in buying blocks of seats for the entire season. Sometimes as much as a third of the entire stadium. And that's the market 3com Park wants to go for; it's more profitable than the pesky individual fans and their buds who got them to where they are now, whos' money built the new ballpark. In other words, it's my theory that 3com is now more interested in big telcos. Integrating the TC and phone switches and stuff like putting ADSL and traditional dialup in the CO. $Billions is an understatement for their target here....imagine TC racks in every telco CO everywhere, all bought and owned by companies who are quite used to paying way too much for eqipment and service contracts, companies who have entire departments to keep all the proper paperwork straight. Companies who don't whine when charged $10 to go to the bathroom because they can just file for a rate increase to cover the operating costs. So you can see the rapid loss of interest in ISPs who "only" have a few hundred TC racks...or especially those piddling little guys who only have a couple. If you can play ball by the BigTime rules, fine, you'll be put up with and used to beta test all the hardware they want to sell to the BigBoyz....if not, oh well, c'est la vie. Moot point really, because if they hit the target of selling to the telcos, most of those "small" players will be going out of business anyway. Not surprising, really....I mean, consider how much NorTel would care about you if you wanted only one DMS-10 (or just one barebones DMS100). Or how much Boeing would cater to your wishes because you own just one or two of their airplanes. [rant] But it is sad. Unlike the other two examples, it's a case of turning their backs on the market that put them where they are today. NorTel didn't start by targeting the hobbiest market, USR did. That they are even a player now is directly due to the small BBS market and later the ISP market. I can easily remember a time, not *that* many years ago, when even a single-line BBS operator could call USR, identify himself as a sysop, and get a direct line to engineering. You could report a bug in your 14.4k Courier, and not only would they burn a new ROM for you and fedex it to you (even if it was alpha or beta code), but you'd be sincerely *thanked* for finding it for 'em and testing out the new ROM that you'd get the next day. It was this level of support which garnered them the BBS market, and then the consumer market (who needed the same kind of modem that their favorite BBS used). The BBS operators also started spec'ing USR stuff at their workplace, and then a good number of BBS sysops started ISPs, continuing the trend. At the time, a rack full of dual 28.8k Couriers was deserving of the pure lust it inspired in the hearts of people involved with dialup. Once upon a time, us "small time" operators were USR's favorite children. 3com came in and pointed out that we've got red hair, freckles, and were actually a product of a previous marriage. Currently, I don't know of any other company that has made me feel so unwanted; it's like they're actively trying to chase me away. My only wish is that I didn't pick up on this earlier....like when I was at the 3com booth at a convention, looking to purchase, and it was hinted that I was too small to talk to, and was directly told that I needed to go to a resellers booth for info. [funny thing was...the reseller they told me to go to told me I didn't want 3com, that I should buy Ascend]. Another funny thing is that the folks at the Nortel booth chatted with me for a good while about telco switches...and I told them directly at the beginning that I was small fry and had no immediate need to buy, and probably never would be able to. The only saving grace is that at least in my case, I love my HARC and HDSPs....I'm running old code, but they still kick serious ass in my case. In the past year, one HDSP rebooted itself for no apparent reason, one modem hung up and needed a reset, and one HDSP suddenly decided that the D-channel was down (but a reboot fixed that...the D-channel was fine). The old code I'm running has problems with some old Rockwell stuff and other crappy no-name modems, but it doesn't have a lot of the problems I hear about on the list nowadays. The other saving grace is this mailing list, and the handful of 3com people that populate it. I actually hesitate in bashing 3com on here because the 3com people that actually see it aren't the problem, and they're more deserving of praise rather than seeing stuff that'll just alienate them more and make 'em think I'm an ingrate. My biggest worry at the moment is that someday, some 3com exec will learn that support is being doled out on this list for *shudder* FREE, and order the other 3com employees to not participate here (or require a service contract to subscribe to the list where they do participate). The thing is, it's not like my desires here are out of touch with reality. I want a *reasonably priced* service contract that gives me access to the code and spare-in-the-air replacement. I want the requirement that all chassis' I own be covered to be dropped (I own a spare, it's sitting in my closet...I resent having to actively cover it, especially since it's only there because 'spare-in-the-air' is about 24-48 hours too late for me). And by "reasonably priced", I *don't* mean 20 friggin percent of the purchase price per annum, either. I may even be tempted to buy support, if said support was better than my part-time theatre-major can deliver....even she can tell me to try rebooting the chassis. Give me a test or something, and give me direct access to support commensurate with my score. 75%, direct to level 2, 100% direct to eng. or somesuch. Leave your level 1 tech support in place for people like my so-called competition, who retired from the National Guard and started an ISP on a whim with no prior computer or networking experience. [/rant] Thanks, listpeople, I feel much better now. (: Lon Stockton - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
I agree with you. Alexander ----- Original Message ----- From: Lon R. Stockton, Jr. <lon@moonstar.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 4:29 PM Subject: Re: (usr-tc) ISPCon/3Com Open Meeting
On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Richard Lorbieski wrote:
You may think this is silly. But this is how I feel 3Com treats Total Control Chassis owners.
I've mentioned my theory of 3com's attitude on here before, but maybe time to do so again, working it into your analogy....
You see, this 3com Park ballfield really isn't designed for individual fans....a guy bringing a couple friends to the game is just rif-raf; troublesome whiners who always complain about dirty seats and always having to scrape their change up to buy a hot dog. At 3com Park, there's a new business model, y'see. There's a lot of BigTime companies who have vast amounts of money to toss around....companies who are quite used to (and even expect) expensive service contracts. And these companies aren't interested in four seats at a ball game, they are interested in buying blocks of seats for the entire season. Sometimes as much as a third of the entire stadium. And that's the market 3com Park wants to go for; it's more profitable than the pesky individual fans and their buds who got them to where they are now, whos' money built the new ballpark.
In other words, it's my theory that 3com is now more interested in big telcos. Integrating the TC and phone switches and stuff like putting ADSL and traditional dialup in the CO. $Billions is an understatement for their target here....imagine TC racks in every telco CO everywhere, all bought and owned by companies who are quite used to paying way too much for eqipment and service contracts, companies who have entire departments to keep all the proper paperwork straight. Companies who don't whine when charged $10 to go to the bathroom because they can just file for a rate increase to cover the operating costs.
So you can see the rapid loss of interest in ISPs who "only" have a few hundred TC racks...or especially those piddling little guys who only have a couple. If you can play ball by the BigTime rules, fine, you'll be put up with and used to beta test all the hardware they want to sell to the BigBoyz....if not, oh well, c'est la vie. Moot point really, because if they hit the target of selling to the telcos, most of those "small" players will be going out of business anyway.
Not surprising, really....I mean, consider how much NorTel would care about you if you wanted only one DMS-10 (or just one barebones DMS100). Or how much Boeing would cater to your wishes because you own just one or two of their airplanes.
[rant]
But it is sad. Unlike the other two examples, it's a case of turning their backs on the market that put them where they are today. NorTel didn't start by targeting the hobbiest market, USR did. That they are even a player now is directly due to the small BBS market and later the ISP market. I can easily remember a time, not *that* many years ago, when even a single-line BBS operator could call USR, identify himself as a sysop, and get a direct line to engineering. You could report a bug in your 14.4k Courier, and not only would they burn a new ROM for you and fedex it to you (even if it was alpha or beta code), but you'd be sincerely *thanked* for finding it for 'em and testing out the new ROM that you'd get the next day. It was this level of support which garnered them the BBS market, and then the consumer market (who needed the same kind of modem that their favorite BBS used). The BBS operators also started spec'ing USR stuff at their workplace, and then a good number of BBS sysops started ISPs, continuing the trend. At the time, a rack full of dual 28.8k Couriers was deserving of the pure lust it inspired in the hearts of people involved with dialup.
Once upon a time, us "small time" operators were USR's favorite children. 3com came in and pointed out that we've got red hair, freckles, and were actually a product of a previous marriage. Currently, I don't know of any other company that has made me feel so unwanted; it's like they're actively trying to chase me away.
My only wish is that I didn't pick up on this earlier....like when I was at the 3com booth at a convention, looking to purchase, and it was hinted that I was too small to talk to, and was directly told that I needed to go to a resellers booth for info. [funny thing was...the reseller they told me to go to told me I didn't want 3com, that I should buy Ascend]. Another funny thing is that the folks at the Nortel booth chatted with me for a good while about telco switches...and I told them directly at the beginning that I was small fry and had no immediate need to buy, and probably never would be able to.
The only saving grace is that at least in my case, I love my HARC and HDSPs....I'm running old code, but they still kick serious ass in my case. In the past year, one HDSP rebooted itself for no apparent reason, one modem hung up and needed a reset, and one HDSP suddenly decided that the D-channel was down (but a reboot fixed that...the D-channel was fine). The old code I'm running has problems with some old Rockwell stuff and other crappy no-name modems, but it doesn't have a lot of the problems I hear about on the list nowadays.
The other saving grace is this mailing list, and the handful of 3com people that populate it. I actually hesitate in bashing 3com on here because the 3com people that actually see it aren't the problem, and they're more deserving of praise rather than seeing stuff that'll just alienate them more and make 'em think I'm an ingrate. My biggest worry at the moment is that someday, some 3com exec will learn that support is being doled out on this list for *shudder* FREE, and order the other 3com employees to not participate here (or require a service contract to subscribe to the list where they do participate).
The thing is, it's not like my desires here are out of touch with reality. I want a *reasonably priced* service contract that gives me access to the code and spare-in-the-air replacement. I want the requirement that all chassis' I own be covered to be dropped (I own a spare, it's sitting in my closet...I resent having to actively cover it, especially since it's only there because 'spare-in-the-air' is about 24-48 hours too late for me). And by "reasonably priced", I *don't* mean 20 friggin percent of the purchase price per annum, either. I may even be tempted to buy support, if said support was better than my part-time theatre-major can deliver....even she can tell me to try rebooting the chassis. Give me a test or something, and give me direct access to support commensurate with my score. 75%, direct to level 2, 100% direct to eng. or somesuch. Leave your level 1 tech support in place for people like my so-called competition, who retired from the National Guard and started an ISP on a whim with no prior computer or networking experience.
[/rant]
Thanks, listpeople, I feel much better now. (:
Lon Stockton
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At 03:01 PM 10/15/99 -0500, Richard Lorbieski <richard@alpha1.net> wrote:
Speaking of ball parks... What if 3Com really managed 3Com Park?
It should go like this:
Three friends and myself went to a baseball game at 3Com park. The ticket prices were not only based on seating location, but also on your size. So my ticket was 25.34, and my friends paid 12.56, 17.45, and 21.92 (plus tax).
[snip]
FINAL INSULT:
The game went into extra innings so we had to cough up $10 each plus $20 more for my other friends - even though they left early because of an emergency.
Yes, but who won the game?? ;o) -- Kirk Mitchell-General Manager mitch@keyconn.net Keystone Connect Unlock Your World Altoona, PA 814-941-5000 http://www.keyconn.net - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Alot of times its just customer reps there though.........they should send more execs and engineers to those things. On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Marshall Morgan wrote:
Great Idea !!
Why don't we all have a mass (OPEN) meeting with 3com at ISPCon. The other vendors will send people in as well and will get plenty of ammo for their executives that actually listen to their customer's complaints. If 3com changes everything that night with a big announcement (hint hint) about cost effective hardware/technical support and software only support, then everyone, except the snoops from other companies, will be happy!
A win-win for everyone if 3C want's our continued business. Buy customer's happiness through goodwill instead of ball parks.
Marshall Morgan President
Internet Doorway, Inc (aka NETDOOR) http://www.netdoor.com
601.969.1434 x28 | 800.952.1570 x28 | 601.969.3629 x28 | Fax 601.969.3838
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Richard Lorbieski Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 9:41 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) RE: (USR-TC) 2.0.60 HDM C
Sorry, but only people with service contracts can visit the 3Com booth.
Sheldon Koehler wrote:
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the 3Com booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then...
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Great idea. Set up a date and time. I doubt that it will do much good though. We rant and rave about every 4 months regarding the same topics and 3Com remains silent. I also liked the suggestion about discussing this in some public stock trading forums. Perhaps if some of the 3Com moguls notice a drop in the stock prices/net worth, they might be inclined to investigate the cause. At 06:46 PM 10/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
Maybe we should all gang up at ISPCon and do a mass movement from the 3Com booth over to the Cisco booth and see if 3Com notices then...
Thanks, Greg Coffey <gcoffey@vcn.com> Visionary Communications V 307-234-5443 F 307-234-5446 100 N. Center, Casper, WY 82601 www.vcn.com - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
If you call tech support at 2AM you are wasting your time. Heck even if you call at 11am you are wasting your time. The support is just not there. I would find youself a good VAR (like source technology) that has in house tech support for 3Com and use them first. I guess that's the jist of most of the complaints. I think 3Com is realizing this but in an effort to keep revenue up they don't improve support to meet the bottom line.... they just redo the contracts for support and charge you more to make up for the people who have dropped thier program. How can other MAJOR access manufacturers get away with relaesing free code for updates and 3Com cannot? If 2.0.6 has a bug in it.. I shouldn't have to pay for 2.0.7 that fixes the bug they sold me in the first place. Thier almost as bad as Microsoft when it comes to licensing. I remember about 2 years ago someone wrote an open letter to 3Com/USR about the Total Control chassis and put it on the web... 3Com did respond but it was a standard "we are continuing to make improvements" letter. It sad that the customer base has to get just short of a revolt in order to get even that kind of form letter response. I am getting tired of 3Com, it's lack of interest in supporting it's users and a support program that just plain is not worth it. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the tel support, and just pay for code updates.
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How can other MAJOR access manufacturers get away with relaesing free code for updates and 3Com cannot? If 2.0.6 has a bug in it.. I shouldn't have to pay for 2.0.7 that fixes the bug they sold me in the first place. Thier almost as bad as Microsoft when it comes to licensing.
yep, they should release bug fix code which adds no new features, so that people can have it for free if they have paid for the code that has bugs in it. Instead they fix some bugs, add new features, and then call it a major release and want more money.
I remember about 2 years ago someone wrote an open letter to 3Com/USR about the Total Control chassis and put it on the web... 3Com did respond but it was a standard "we are continuing to make improvements" letter.
That was the Total Control Unresolved Issues letter. It was signed off on by dozens of technical leads/sysadmins and CEO's of places using Total Control. I believe 3com did listen to alot of that letter and make improvments, they did listen. I don't think we should have to goto that sort of extent, but if it works, perhaps its time for a second revision.......not to blast them, just to put our thoughts together, and that way they can get an idea of what we feel is important.
It sad that the customer base has to get just short of a revolt in order to get even that kind of form letter response.
I am getting tired of 3Com, it's lack of interest in supporting it's users and a support program that just plain is not worth it.
Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545
Those of us new to the platform (myself included) might benefit from the convenience of knowing that phone support is available 24x7 when you're staring at a box not taking calls at 2AM. But once you get the hang of TC and know how to troubleshoot these things on your own (or at least with the added help of those on this list), you can drop the tel support, and just pay for code updates.
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Scot Desort wrote:
I think Brian is on the right track here. Perhaps 3COM can split their service contracts into 2 categories - firmware download only, and full support with download and telephone support.
O, they *do* offer software download only support.........its just that I am not entirely happy with that pricing either.
Scot NJAccess
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Brian Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 9:45 PM To: usr-tc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (usr-tc) 2.0.60 HDM Code
On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Jeff Binkley wrote:
-> One of the few pleasures in life is telling the salesbot on the phone that I -> will NOT be renewing my support contract. -> -> For the amount it would cost to cover 2 chassis and a dozen DSP's, ARC's and -> NMC's they need to do alot better than they are now. -> -> They released NFAS code and OSPF beta code... whipee. Make the damned thing -> connect more reliabily and then worry about networking code (ala OSPF).
I too boycotted renewing my maintenance contract for almost a year for many of the same reasons you and others have expressed. I just downloaded all of the TC 3.6 stuff but am gunshy about upgrading the Hiperarc and DSP code. I got burned already on the 4.1.56-6 code that killed my webramps. I was actually on Ramp Networks website tonight and they have an engineering note specifically for TC w/HiPerArcs. They pretty much pointed the gun straight at 3Com. Back to the original point of your message I wonder how many of us have witheld revenue from 3Com over the maintenance contract issues ? I will say the process for purchasing the maintenance contract and getting it active was much much better this time (albeit I couldn't active it via the website due to some cgi problem) but the ole reliable fax machine came through with flying colors.
We have. I would be very happy to pay 3Com a fair price for maintenence contracts. We almost had a deal cinched and at the last minute they changed the price, and we never went with it.
Once you are a certain size, and you have certain momentum, you are *always* buying dsp's every few weeks. So technically, if you just keep registering those numbers on totalservice, you will always be covered under 90 days support.
This is bad for 3com though, so they really should fix the contract situation, so we can get real contracts. I just want software, I am not interested in there tech support. I have been working on TC hubs for years, setup dozens and dozens of them, and done just about everything worth doing on them. But I get subjected to calling into an 800 number, at 11pm, so that some guy who sounds half asleep can call me back with a piss poor (tired?) attitude, who probably has been working there like a few weeks, or months, and doesn't have anywhere near the experience I do on these hubs. "Did you try rebooting the chassis?"...........
I feel I am in a constant battle with 3com, just to get code I have legitimate access too etc.
I mean, if you buy a chassis that has TCS 3.5 on it, and you bought a support contract with TCS 3.5..........shouldn't your account still let you download the TCS 3.5 code forever? I mean, its not like they are giving you something you didn't already have........you paid for it, its not a newer version, its the version that was on the damn thing when you bought it!
I can log into Cisco, and download any code on that site, no questions asked..........I can do that with a $250 2501 service contract. Do I screw Cisco? Hell no, because the contracts for *all* the stuff I have is just as good of a deal as the pricing on the 2501 contracts.
You can bet that when people like myself need support contracts, its not because we don't know how to use the equipment, its because the stuff isn't working, we need fixes, we need to let 3com know it doesn't work.
Jeff Binkley ASA Network Computing
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881)
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
O, they *do* offer software download only support.........its just that I am not entirely happy with that pricing either.
I love the hardware, but I'm not entirely happy with their software. A version of arc code that fixes one problem breaks 3 other things! I think 3com should make *all* their releases Beta, not just ERs. Because we seem to be the Beta testers even with their production level code. Has 3com considered a code freeze, so they can fix the problems in their existing code and not keep adding broken features to already broken code? Maybe 3com should do what Linux kernel developers do; have one version of code-base that is stable, and yet another version for those individuals who want to "live on the edge" with new features, but most importantly, keep working on and improving *both* versions at the same time. I know it's not easy 3com, and I understand that everyone wants new features right away. However, what makes me mad is the fact that 3com charges *us* to fix *their* mistakes. I understand small bugs, everything has small bugs, but *major* problems such as security flaws or bugs that effect the basic functionality of their products should be fixed free of charge. And when we do buy service contracts with software support, we should be able to at least access the code and security updates we had access to during our contracts after it expires on us. Because after all, we did pay for it. Either that or I'll just have to start mirroring. Even Micro$oft offers free updates without a "service contract" for most of their products when it comes to security issues; however, *like* 3com, Microsoft never seems to find all the bugs. ;) I know things will get better, because 3com has very smart people and they are listening, right? I hope 3com does the right thing and develops a more "customer friendly" approach when it comes to software updates and support. - andrew - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
Does 2.0.60 break any other things? I am having a tough time with this hanging DSP problem. I am getting 2.0.60 sent to me, but am interested to see what it breaks if anything. Russ Miescke Power Web Connect ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew <smitha@mach3ww.com> To: <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 9:42 AM Subject: RE: (usr-tc) 2.0.60 HDM Code
O, they *do* offer software download only support.........its just that
I
am not entirely happy with that pricing either.
I love the hardware, but I'm not entirely happy with their software. A version of arc code that fixes one problem breaks 3 other things! I think 3com should make *all* their releases Beta, not just ERs. Because we seem to be the Beta testers even with their production level code. Has 3com considered a code freeze, so they can fix the problems in their existing code and not keep adding broken features to already broken code? Maybe 3com should do what Linux kernel developers do; have one version of code-base that is stable, and yet another version for those individuals who want to "live on the edge" with new features, but most importantly, keep working on and improving *both* versions at the same time.
I know it's not easy 3com, and I understand that everyone wants new features right away. However, what makes me mad is the fact that 3com charges *us* to fix *their* mistakes. I understand small bugs, everything has small bugs, but *major* problems such as security flaws or bugs that effect the basic functionality of their products should be fixed free of charge. And when we do buy service contracts with software support, we should be able to at least access the code and security updates we had access to during our contracts after it expires on us. Because after all, we did pay for it. Either that or I'll just have to start mirroring.
Even Micro$oft offers free updates without a "service contract" for most of their products when it comes to security issues; however, *like* 3com, Microsoft never seems to find all the bugs. ;) I know things will get better, because 3com has very smart people and they are listening, right? I hope 3com does the right thing and develops a more "customer friendly" approach when it comes to software updates and support.
- andrew
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
participants (20)
-
Alex Bernal -
andrew -
Brian -
Charles Sprickman -
D. Randy Cosby -
Ed -
farber＠admin.f-tech.net -
Frank Angel -
Greg Coffey -
Jeff Mcadams -
jeff.binkley＠asacomp.com -
K Mitchell -
Lon R. Stockton, Jr. -
Marshall Morgan -
Randy Cosby
-
Richard Lorbieski -
Russ Miescke -
Scot Desort -
Sheldon Koehler -
Todd Keister