(usr-tc) OT: Survey - Backhauling traffic from POP's
Off-topic survey: I am investigating some POP alternatives for our network. These POPs will be dialup only. They will be co-located within the CLEC switch or remote central office. I am looking for information on how most of you backhaul the dialup traffic to your networks. I find it curiously strange that more CLECs do not have fiber in their facilities that connect them to IP backbones like UUNET, Sprint or CW (at least that's the way it is here in NJ). My first inclination was not to backhaul, but obtain a separate feed to one of the backbones right in the colo/switch, but this is not an option. So, I am left to backhaul. What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have my doubts here as well. Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer. -- Scot Desort Network Operations Manager NJ Internet Access scot@njaccess.net - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
It's not a matter of how many PRI's per T1, but a matter of what your customers are doing with the connections. We successfully ran 8 incoming T1's via a single 'net T1 that was not heavily loaded until the 9th and 10th incoming lines came up (the second 'net T1 was late, as is usually the case). We also had numerous deicated accounts and colos as well. When the latency started to rise we ordered the new circuits. All the while our clients consistently rate our "speed" to be much better than our competitors. This is all changing right now though, because more users are doing bandwidth intensive things. We have ordered additional 'net T1's to cover the bandwidth growth, but we still are not pinched on the two we have with 16 incoming dialup T1's and PRI's from the telco. Mark Thornton San Marcos Internet, Inc. 512-393-5300 ----- Original Message ----- From: Scot Desort <scot@njaccess.net> To: usr list <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 9:11 PM Subject: (usr-tc) OT: Survey - Backhauling traffic from POP's
Off-topic survey:
I am investigating some POP alternatives for our network. These POPs will be dialup only. They will be co-located within the CLEC switch or remote central office.
I am looking for information on how most of you backhaul the dialup traffic to your networks. I find it curiously strange that more CLECs do not have fiber in their facilities that connect them to IP backbones like UUNET, Sprint or CW (at least that's the way it is here in NJ). My first inclination was not to backhaul, but obtain a separate feed to one of the backbones right in the colo/switch, but this is not an option. So, I am left to backhaul.
What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have my doubts here as well.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.
-- Scot Desort Network Operations Manager NJ Internet Access scot@njaccess.net
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I would monitor the dropped packets instead of 'latentancy'. There are to many outside factors to influeance ping times. FWIW I got 7 PRI's and a few ISDN/T-1 circuits into a single upstream t-1... that includes running 2 game servers. Paul Farber Farber Technology farber@admin.f-tech.net Ph 570-628-5303 Fax 570-628-5545 On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Mark Thornton wrote:
It's not a matter of how many PRI's per T1, but a matter of what your customers are doing with the connections. We successfully ran 8 incoming T1's via a single 'net T1 that was not heavily loaded until the 9th and 10th incoming lines came up (the second 'net T1 was late, as is usually the case). We also had numerous deicated accounts and colos as well. When the latency started to rise we ordered the new circuits. All the while our clients consistently rate our "speed" to be much better than our competitors.
This is all changing right now though, because more users are doing bandwidth intensive things. We have ordered additional 'net T1's to cover the bandwidth growth, but we still are not pinched on the two we have with 16 incoming dialup T1's and PRI's from the telco.
Mark Thornton San Marcos Internet, Inc. 512-393-5300
----- Original Message ----- From: Scot Desort <scot@njaccess.net> To: usr list <usr-tc@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 9:11 PM Subject: (usr-tc) OT: Survey - Backhauling traffic from POP's
Off-topic survey:
I am investigating some POP alternatives for our network. These POPs will be dialup only. They will be co-located within the CLEC switch or remote central office.
I am looking for information on how most of you backhaul the dialup traffic to your networks. I find it curiously strange that more CLECs do not have fiber in their facilities that connect them to IP backbones like UUNET, Sprint or CW (at least that's the way it is here in NJ). My first inclination was not to backhaul, but obtain a separate feed to one of the backbones right in the colo/switch, but this is not an option. So, I am left to backhaul.
What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have my doubts here as well.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.
-- Scot Desort Network Operations Manager NJ Internet Access scot@njaccess.net
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Can anyone recommend a solution for bonding (or multi-linking) up to 4 64K B channels together from a client site into a HiperChassis? Dial on demand as bandwidth requires? I suppose if they had a PRI as well, but I as hoping for an ISDN solution. Who makes hardware like this? Does it work? ISDN is the only cost effective delivery in this customer's remote location. Kent Tambling kent@acceleration.net System Administrator www.acceleration.net - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
I have four Ascend Pipe400's waiting to be dusted off and sold... 4 BRIs on each :) Charles On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Kent Tambling wrote:
Can anyone recommend a solution for bonding (or multi-linking) up to 4 64K B channels together from a client site into a HiperChassis? Dial on demand as bandwidth requires?
I suppose if they had a PRI as well, but I as hoping for an ISDN solution. Who makes hardware like this? Does it work?
ISDN is the only cost effective delivery in this customer's remote location.
Kent Tambling kent@acceleration.net System Administrator www.acceleration.net
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3 to 1 is ridiculously low. We've got 6 PRI's worth of dialup traffic in one remote pop, and the T1 heading there peaks at 880 kbps. That carries only dialup traffic; no dedicated lines or DSL or anything else. I figure I can get to at least 9 PRI's before I worry about getting a second T1 down there... Here in Bellsouth land, running a T1 out to this site was the most cost effective way to do it. Call Forwarding doesn't scale past 10 lines in Bellsouth land. The alternative was Bellsouth's Extended Reach PRI, which becomes uneconomical with only 2 PRI's... at that point it was cheaper to run a T1 ($458/month for 12 miles) than pay $400+/month PER PRI extra. Running separate backbone connectivity into this particular location wasn't economical either, because it was really a remote switch that Bell backhauls to the one our main office is on anyway... and we would have had to put in something like a Cisco 3640 (for running BGP internally) rather than the 2511 we have now. (And the async ports on the 2511 hook up to the console ports on the Total Control nicely, so I can get into the cards if the ethernet dies.) Mike Andrews (MA12) * mandrews@dcr.net * http://www.bit0.com/ VP, sysadmin, & network guy, Digital Crescent Inc, Frankfort KY Internet services for Frankfort, Lawrenceburg, Owenton, Shelbyville "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Scot Desort wrote:
Off-topic survey:
I am investigating some POP alternatives for our network. These POPs will be dialup only. They will be co-located within the CLEC switch or remote central office.
I am looking for information on how most of you backhaul the dialup traffic to your networks. I find it curiously strange that more CLECs do not have fiber in their facilities that connect them to IP backbones like UUNET, Sprint or CW (at least that's the way it is here in NJ). My first inclination was not to backhaul, but obtain a separate feed to one of the backbones right in the colo/switch, but this is not an option. So, I am left to backhaul.
What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have my doubts here as well.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.
-- Scot Desort Network Operations Manager NJ Internet Access scot@njaccess.net
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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So, it seems like the general rule that folks around here use is more like 6-8 to one. I suspected as much. Very interesting to hear how everybody is doing it. What about CLEC's in other states -- I would imagine that you are not backhauling directly, but rather using something like frame to tie the remote POP into your network. -- Scot
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Mike Andrews Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 12:55 AM To: usr list Subject: Re: (usr-tc) OT: Survey - Backhauling traffic from POP's
3 to 1 is ridiculously low. We've got 6 PRI's worth of dialup traffic in one remote pop, and the T1 heading there peaks at 880 kbps. That carries only dialup traffic; no dedicated lines or DSL or anything else. I figure I can get to at least 9 PRI's before I worry about getting a second T1 down there...
Here in Bellsouth land, running a T1 out to this site was the most cost effective way to do it. Call Forwarding doesn't scale past 10 lines in Bellsouth land. The alternative was Bellsouth's Extended Reach PRI, which becomes uneconomical with only 2 PRI's... at that point it was cheaper to run a T1 ($458/month for 12 miles) than pay $400+/month PER PRI extra.
Running separate backbone connectivity into this particular location wasn't economical either, because it was really a remote switch that Bell backhauls to the one our main office is on anyway... and we would have had to put in something like a Cisco 3640 (for running BGP internally) rather than the 2511 we have now. (And the async ports on the 2511 hook up to the console ports on the Total Control nicely, so I can get into the cards if the ethernet dies.)
Mike Andrews (MA12) * mandrews@dcr.net * http://www.bit0.com/ VP, sysadmin, & network guy, Digital Crescent Inc, Frankfort KY Internet services for Frankfort, Lawrenceburg, Owenton, Shelbyville "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Scot Desort wrote:
Off-topic survey:
I am investigating some POP alternatives for our network. These POPs will be dialup only. They will be co-located within the CLEC switch or remote central office.
I am looking for information on how most of you backhaul the dialup traffic to your networks. I find it curiously strange that more CLECs do not have fiber in their facilities that connect them to IP backbones like UUNET, Sprint or CW (at least that's the way it is here in NJ). My first inclination was not to backhaul, but obtain a separate feed to one of the backbones right in the colo/switch, but this is not an option. So, I am left to backhaul.
What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have my doubts here as well.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.
-- Scot Desort Network Operations Manager NJ Internet Access scot@njaccess.net
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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it just depends. If your hitting markets that don't have BRI service you can push it higher. But if you have a good mix of isdn bri users, you will have to use lower ratios On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Scot Desort wrote:
So, it seems like the general rule that folks around here use is more like 6-8 to one. I suspected as much. Very interesting to hear how everybody is doing it.
What about CLEC's in other states -- I would imagine that you are not backhauling directly, but rather using something like frame to tie the remote POP into your network.
-- Scot
-----Original Message----- From: owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-usr-tc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Mike Andrews Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 12:55 AM To: usr list Subject: Re: (usr-tc) OT: Survey - Backhauling traffic from POP's
3 to 1 is ridiculously low. We've got 6 PRI's worth of dialup traffic in one remote pop, and the T1 heading there peaks at 880 kbps. That carries only dialup traffic; no dedicated lines or DSL or anything else. I figure I can get to at least 9 PRI's before I worry about getting a second T1 down there...
Here in Bellsouth land, running a T1 out to this site was the most cost effective way to do it. Call Forwarding doesn't scale past 10 lines in Bellsouth land. The alternative was Bellsouth's Extended Reach PRI, which becomes uneconomical with only 2 PRI's... at that point it was cheaper to run a T1 ($458/month for 12 miles) than pay $400+/month PER PRI extra.
Running separate backbone connectivity into this particular location wasn't economical either, because it was really a remote switch that Bell backhauls to the one our main office is on anyway... and we would have had to put in something like a Cisco 3640 (for running BGP internally) rather than the 2511 we have now. (And the async ports on the 2511 hook up to the console ports on the Total Control nicely, so I can get into the cards if the ethernet dies.)
Mike Andrews (MA12) * mandrews@dcr.net * http://www.bit0.com/ VP, sysadmin, & network guy, Digital Crescent Inc, Frankfort KY Internet services for Frankfort, Lawrenceburg, Owenton, Shelbyville "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Scot Desort wrote:
Off-topic survey:
I am investigating some POP alternatives for our network. These POPs will be dialup only. They will be co-located within the CLEC switch or remote central office.
I am looking for information on how most of you backhaul the dialup traffic to your networks. I find it curiously strange that more CLECs do not have fiber in their facilities that connect them to IP backbones like UUNET, Sprint or CW (at least that's the way it is here in NJ). My first inclination was not to backhaul, but obtain a separate feed to one of the backbones right in the colo/switch, but this is not an option. So, I am left to backhaul.
What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have my doubts here as well.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.
-- Scot Desort Network Operations Manager NJ Internet Access scot@njaccess.net
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Mike Andrews wrote:
3 to 1 is ridiculously low. We've got 6 PRI's worth of dialup traffic in one remote pop, and the T1 heading there peaks at 880 kbps. That carries only dialup traffic; no dedicated lines or DSL or anything else. I figure I can get to at least 9 PRI's before I worry about getting a second T1 down there...
Here in Bellsouth land, running a T1 out to this site was the most cost effective way to do it. Call Forwarding doesn't scale past 10 lines in Bellsouth land. The alternative was Bellsouth's Extended Reach PRI, which
Call forwarding more than 1 call path is also a tariff violation :)
becomes uneconomical with only 2 PRI's... at that point it was cheaper to run a T1 ($458/month for 12 miles) than pay $400+/month PER PRI extra.
Running separate backbone connectivity into this particular location wasn't economical either, because it was really a remote switch that Bell backhauls to the one our main office is on anyway... and we would have had to put in something like a Cisco 3640 (for running BGP internally) rather than the 2511 we have now. (And the async ports on the 2511 hook up to the console ports on the Total Control nicely, so I can get into the cards if the ethernet dies.)
Mike Andrews (MA12) * mandrews@dcr.net * http://www.bit0.com/ VP, sysadmin, & network guy, Digital Crescent Inc, Frankfort KY Internet services for Frankfort, Lawrenceburg, Owenton, Shelbyville "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."
On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Scot Desort wrote:
Off-topic survey:
I am investigating some POP alternatives for our network. These POPs will be dialup only. They will be co-located within the CLEC switch or remote central office.
I am looking for information on how most of you backhaul the dialup traffic to your networks. I find it curiously strange that more CLECs do not have fiber in their facilities that connect them to IP backbones like UUNET, Sprint or CW (at least that's the way it is here in NJ). My first inclination was not to backhaul, but obtain a separate feed to one of the backbones right in the colo/switch, but this is not an option. So, I am left to backhaul.
What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have my doubts here as well.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.
-- Scot Desort Network Operations Manager NJ Internet Access scot@njaccess.net
- To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Mike Andrews wrote:
3 to 1 is ridiculously low. We've got 6 PRI's worth of dialup traffic in one remote pop, and the T1 heading there peaks at 880 kbps. That carries only dialup traffic; no dedicated lines or DSL or anything else. I figure I can get to at least 9 PRI's before I worry about getting a second T1 down there...
<rest deleted> That would be true if we all lived in warm climates where people have other things to do... We have a number of very rural pops in Ohio where people spend a great deal of time on the net. In places where there aren't many fun things to do or when the weather is bad enough to keep people inside, dialup to customer and data to dialup ratios go up. When there's more fun stuff to do, people spend less time on the net and when they do, they're often too busy to spend a bunch of time doing a lot of things. The ROI on these POPs takes longer, though they do turn profitable eventually. I could be way off base on this, but this is what I've seen from our net. Kevin E-Mail: s1kevin@tims.net Web: http://users.sota-oh.com/~s1kevin/ Unsolicited advertisements processing fee: $50 subject to change without notice - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Scot Desort wrote:
Off-topic survey:
What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have my doubts here as well.
Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.
You should be able to backhaul 10-12 PRI's on a single t1, depending on your paritcular user mix.
-- Scot Desort Network Operations Manager NJ Internet Access scot@njaccess.net
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----------------------------------------------------- Brian Feeny (BF304) signal@shreve.net 318-222-2638 x 109 http://www.shreve.net/~signal Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) - To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
participants (8)
-
Brian -
Charles Sprickman -
Kent Tambling -
Kevin Benton -
Mark Thornton -
Mike Andrews -
Paul Farber -
Scot Desort