Copy that. Never liked the idea of a stern mounted boarding ladder. The backstay is right in the way. When I sailed with the Nor Cal Potters Bay Area Messabout I devised a similar reentry sling in my 17. I used orange ratchet straps minus the ratchet and hung them from the perforated aluminum sheet rail older Monty17's have. I made two loops on each side, gathering them loosely with zip ties. I was able to test them with the boat on the trailer to determine how low they should hang. I didn't need to try them in earnest, thankfully. I now tether up whenever I sail. An aside on the same subject. I had dog tags made, one side has my name and address, the other my wife's name and phone number. Just in case. Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44 On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 11:00 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Capsize recover/re-entry (Rusty Knorr) 2. Re: Capsize recover/re-entry (Dave Scobie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:00:08 -0800 From: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: <FDCD41FE-A856-4C36-9273-BB0E17DB5F0D@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Dec 2, 2020, at 11:00 AM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
?Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Fwd: Clever (Conbert Benneck) 2. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 3. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 4. Re: Fwd: Clever (casioqv@usermail.com) 5. Re: Fwd: Clever - safety plans (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:16:24 -0600 From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <9dd0e3e5-a517-6672-3a8b-5e02ab9b74e8@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea? that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:42:00 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <
MWHPR18MB13423975A45ADF51A6BD7B8AB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com>
wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present
for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:48:07 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: < MWHPR18MB13426E3F418681757AD554FDB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
A grim aside, I?ve known three mariners who drowned while moored at docks, having no plans to re-enter their boats in the event of falling overboard. Two armed deadlift pretty much impossible for anyone advanced in age.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:42 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:02:23 -0800 (PST) From: casioqv@usermail.com To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <467051894.14998114.1606928543768.JavaMail.zimbra@usermail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a life jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:55:12 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever - safety plans Message-ID: <78fed254-1eb4-8e64-e1e4-bd196be0baca@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Safety plans & furnishings...
My M17 has a transom mounted swim ladder, normally stowed folded but I can deploy it from in the water if needed. Just a flimsy snap strap and one worn out bungee ball cord keep it stowed upright.
I'm wearing my PFD at all times while under way, which is a well fitting, properly fitted, paddling/sailing designed, always-ready-to-float-you PFD, not an inflatable. I also usually wear it when I'm scampering around the boat & dock setting up to head out...just in case, to avoid being like the unfortunate mariners who drowned when tied to a dock or mooring.
I could never feel as safe wearing an inflatable. I worry about boating friends who use them. So much can go wrong on the way overboard (or long before...did the cartridge leak? Is the mechanism working? etc.) that will render it unlikely to get inflated after one hits the water.
Plus when inflated they are bulky and obstructive, like the old horse-collar "life jackets" - whereas with a well designed & fitted paddle/sail PFD one can swim half-decently (if one is at least a half-decent swimmer :-), and they are less obstructive when re-entering a boat from the water.
cheers, John
On 12/2/20 9:02 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a life jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 214, Issue 1 ************************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:18:51 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: < CAGjBOA4aE2G-1NVWPzLAGr7LEvDwR8NUcX0NMUfNwLodRueHbg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
What Rusty wrote are good points and for high seas very true.
Howard's system, I would agree, could be adapted to a Mboat (as long as there are no lifelines).
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 12:01 PM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 214, Issue 2 ************************************************
Hmmm each to his own.....I swim off my m15 occasionally. Sure like the ladder. I put it on after trying to climb in over the side. It's a lot harder than it looks as your feet tend to slide under the boat. Notice that the "expert" didn't look very graceful either Try it first without strap (make sure you have a helper nearby). I suppose the strap helps and is better than no-strap but I am dubiousof it being anywhere near as easy or as safe as a ladder which makes climbing in a much more dignified experience. On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 2:12:34 PM PST, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote: Copy that. Never liked the idea of a stern mounted boarding ladder. The backstay is right in the way. When I sailed with the Nor Cal Potters Bay Area Messabout I devised a similar reentry sling in my 17. I used orange ratchet straps minus the ratchet and hung them from the perforated aluminum sheet rail older Monty17's have. I made two loops on each side, gathering them loosely with zip ties. I was able to test them with the boat on the trailer to determine how low they should hang. I didn't need to try them in earnest, thankfully. I now tether up whenever I sail. An aside on the same subject. I had dog tags made, one side has my name and address, the other my wife's name and phone number. Just in case. Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44 On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 11:00 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Capsize recover/re-entry (Rusty Knorr) 2. Re: Capsize recover/re-entry (Dave Scobie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:00:08 -0800 From: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: <FDCD41FE-A856-4C36-9273-BB0E17DB5F0D@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Dec 2, 2020, at 11:00 AM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
?Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Fwd: Clever (Conbert Benneck) 2. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 3. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 4. Re: Fwd: Clever (casioqv@usermail.com) 5. Re: Fwd: Clever - safety plans (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:16:24 -0600 From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <9dd0e3e5-a517-6672-3a8b-5e02ab9b74e8@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea? that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:42:00 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <
MWHPR18MB13423975A45ADF51A6BD7B8AB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com>
wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present
for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:48:07 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: < MWHPR18MB13426E3F418681757AD554FDB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
A grim aside, I?ve known three mariners who drowned while moored at docks, having no plans to re-enter their boats in the event of falling overboard. Two armed deadlift pretty much impossible for anyone advanced in age.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:42 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:02:23 -0800 (PST) From: casioqv@usermail.com To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <467051894.14998114.1606928543768.JavaMail.zimbra@usermail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a life jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:55:12 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever - safety plans Message-ID: <78fed254-1eb4-8e64-e1e4-bd196be0baca@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Safety plans & furnishings...
My M17 has a transom mounted swim ladder, normally stowed folded but I can deploy it from in the water if needed. Just a flimsy snap strap and one worn out bungee ball cord keep it stowed upright.
I'm wearing my PFD at all times while under way, which is a well fitting, properly fitted, paddling/sailing designed, always-ready-to-float-you PFD, not an inflatable. I also usually wear it when I'm scampering around the boat & dock setting up to head out...just in case, to avoid being like the unfortunate mariners who drowned when tied to a dock or mooring.
I could never feel as safe wearing an inflatable. I worry about boating friends who use them. So much can go wrong on the way overboard (or long before...did the cartridge leak? Is the mechanism working? etc.) that will render it unlikely to get inflated after one hits the water.
Plus when inflated they are bulky and obstructive, like the old horse-collar "life jackets" - whereas with a well designed & fitted paddle/sail PFD one can swim half-decently (if one is at least a half-decent swimmer :-), and they are less obstructive when re-entering a boat from the water.
cheers, John
On 12/2/20 9:02 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a life jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 214, Issue 1 ************************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:18:51 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: < CAGjBOA4aE2G-1NVWPzLAGr7LEvDwR8NUcX0NMUfNwLodRueHbg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
What Rusty wrote are good points and for high seas very true.
Howard's system, I would agree, could be adapted to a Mboat (as long as there are no lifelines).
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 12:01 PM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 214, Issue 2 ************************************************
Wrt stern mounted boarding ladders I think their safety and ease of use heavily depends on the ladder type installed and the related safety equipment used. In my case my M17 came with a simple but very sturdy, quite long swing ladder. https://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/General/imageviewer.php?objectid=105&o... I have a snap shackle with an 8 inch piece of webbing attached to the release pin providing an easy to reach single motion to quickly release the ladder. The bottom rung of the ladder sits almost 2 ft under water when deployed, so it is very easy to simply step up on the ladder using the power of my legs. I single hand most of the time & have jack lines that I religiously clip to that run off both sides of the boat, from the rear cleats to the first base leg of the bow pulpit. My tether is only about 4.5 ft long so it pops me out just behind the stern close enough to reel in and grab the ladder. ( I have practised it a couple of times with another person in the boat) I am not sure who makes this ladder, perhaps Dave or Jerry know, but I highly recommend it for our boats, it's simple, sturdy & highly functional... Keith *Keith R. Martin* *Vancouver/Burnaby B.C.* *Serenity M17, #353* *http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105 <http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105>* On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 15:28, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hmmm each to his own.....I swim off my m15 occasionally. Sure like the ladder. I put it on after trying to climb in over the side. It's a lot harder than it looks as your feet tend to slide under the boat. Notice that the "expert" didn't look very graceful either Try it first without strap (make sure you have a helper nearby). I suppose the strap helps and is better than no-strap but I am dubiousof it being anywhere near as easy or as safe as a ladder which makes climbing in a much more dignified experience.
On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 2:12:34 PM PST, Jon Barber < brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Copy that. Never liked the idea of a stern mounted boarding ladder. The backstay is right in the way. When I sailed with the Nor Cal Potters Bay Area Messabout I devised a similar reentry sling in my 17. I used orange ratchet straps minus the ratchet and hung them from the perforated aluminum sheet rail older Monty17's have. I made two loops on each side, gathering them loosely with zip ties. I was able to test them with the boat on the trailer to determine how low they should hang. I didn't need to try them in earnest, thankfully. I now tether up whenever I sail. An aside on the same subject. I had dog tags made, one side has my name and address, the other my wife's name and phone number. Just in case.
Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 11:00 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Capsize recover/re-entry (Rusty Knorr) 2. Re: Capsize recover/re-entry (Dave Scobie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:00:08 -0800 From: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: <FDCD41FE-A856-4C36-9273-BB0E17DB5F0D@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Dec 2, 2020, at 11:00 AM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Fwd: Clever (Conbert Benneck) 2. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 3. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 4. Re: Fwd: Clever (casioqv@usermail.com) 5. Re: Fwd: Clever - safety plans (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:16:24 -0600 From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <9dd0e3e5-a517-6672-3a8b-5e02ab9b74e8@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea? that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:42:00 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <
MWHPR18MB13423975A45ADF51A6BD7B8AB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue
plans...
Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:48:07 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <
MWHPR18MB13426E3F418681757AD554FDB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
A grim aside, I?ve known three mariners who drowned while moored at
docks, having no plans to re-enter their boats in the event of falling overboard. Two armed deadlift pretty much impossible for anyone advanced in age.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:42 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue
plans...
Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:02:23 -0800 (PST) From: casioqv@usermail.com To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <467051894.14998114.1606928543768.JavaMail.zimbra@usermail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a
life
jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other
competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <
montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:55:12 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever - safety plans Message-ID: <78fed254-1eb4-8e64-e1e4-bd196be0baca@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Safety plans & furnishings...
My M17 has a transom mounted swim ladder, normally stowed folded but I can deploy it from in the water if needed. Just a flimsy snap strap and one worn out bungee ball cord keep it stowed upright.
I'm wearing my PFD at all times while under way, which is a well fitting, properly fitted, paddling/sailing designed, always-ready-to-float-you PFD, not an inflatable. I also usually wear it when I'm scampering around the boat & dock setting up to head out...just in case, to avoid being like the unfortunate mariners who drowned when tied to a dock or mooring.
I could never feel as safe wearing an inflatable. I worry about boating friends who use them. So much can go wrong on the way overboard (or
long
before...did the cartridge leak? Is the mechanism working? etc.) that will render it unlikely to get inflated after one hits the water.
Plus when inflated they are bulky and obstructive, like the old horse-collar "life jackets" - whereas with a well designed & fitted paddle/sail PFD one can swim half-decently (if one is at least a half-decent swimmer :-), and they are less obstructive when re-entering a boat from the water.
cheers, John
On 12/2/20 9:02 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a life jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 214, Issue 1 ************************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:18:51 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: < CAGjBOA4aE2G-1NVWPzLAGr7LEvDwR8NUcX0NMUfNwLodRueHbg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
What Rusty wrote are good points and for high seas very true.
Howard's system, I would agree, could be adapted to a Mboat (as long as there are no lifelines).
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 12:01 PM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 214, Issue 2 ************************************************
True about drag in the water turning the boat off the wind, with a stern ladder. Hadn't thought about that, I use mine just for swimming so far, haven't gone overboard except intentionally, so far. But it's at least a plan A, or maybe plan B, if I had a stirrup device of some sort as plan A. Actually, plan A is to not go overboard! A stirrup loop is used with kayak rescues, to help someone with low agility, or low upper body strength, or fatigued from immersion, etc. re-enter their boat when rescuing them. But it has the same issues mentioned below, feet go under the boat, pushing anything close to straight up on it is still difficult. It is better than no stirrup, in a bad situation, but still limited help for someone with poor physical conditioning. cheers, John On 12/3/20 3:27 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hmmm each to his own.....I swim off my m15 occasionally. Sure like the ladder. I put it on after trying to climb in over the side. It's a lot harder than it looks as your feet tend to slide under the boat. Notice that the "expert" didn't look very graceful either Try it first without strap (make sure you have a helper nearby). I suppose the strap helps and is better than no-strap but I am dubiousof it being anywhere near as easy or as safe as a ladder which makes climbing in a much more dignified experience.
On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 2:12:34 PM PST, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Copy that. Never liked the idea of a stern mounted boarding ladder. The backstay is right in the way. When I sailed with the Nor Cal Potters Bay Area Messabout I devised a similar reentry sling in my 17. I used orange ratchet straps minus the ratchet and hung them from the perforated aluminum sheet rail older Monty17's have. I made two loops on each side, gathering them loosely with zip ties. I was able to test them with the boat on the trailer to determine how low they should hang. I didn't need to try them in earnest, thankfully. I now tether up whenever I sail. An aside on the same subject. I had dog tags made, one side has my name and address, the other my wife's name and phone number. Just in case.
Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 11:00 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Capsize recover/re-entry (Rusty Knorr) 2. Re: Capsize recover/re-entry (Dave Scobie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:00:08 -0800 From: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: <FDCD41FE-A856-4C36-9273-BB0E17DB5F0D@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Dec 2, 2020, at 11:00 AM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
?Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
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You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Fwd: Clever (Conbert Benneck) 2. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 3. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 4. Re: Fwd: Clever (casioqv@usermail.com) 5. Re: Fwd: Clever - safety plans (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:16:24 -0600 From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <9dd0e3e5-a517-6672-3a8b-5e02ab9b74e8@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea? that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:42:00 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <
MWHPR18MB13423975A45ADF51A6BD7B8AB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com>
wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present
for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:48:07 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: < MWHPR18MB13426E3F418681757AD554FDB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
A grim aside, I?ve known three mariners who drowned while moored at docks, having no plans to re-enter their boats in the event of falling overboard. Two armed deadlift pretty much impossible for anyone advanced in age.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:42 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:02:23 -0800 (PST) From: casioqv@usermail.com To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <467051894.14998114.1606928543768.JavaMail.zimbra@usermail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a life jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?utm_source=New+Atlas+Subscribers&utm_campaign=fcb3367b08-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_12_01_09_11&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-fcb3367b08-90008546>
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:55:12 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever - safety plans Message-ID: <78fed254-1eb4-8e64-e1e4-bd196be0baca@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Safety plans & furnishings...
My M17 has a transom mounted swim ladder, normally stowed folded but I can deploy it from in the water if needed. Just a flimsy snap strap and one worn out bungee ball cord keep it stowed upright.
I'm wearing my PFD at all times while under way, which is a well fitting, properly fitted, paddling/sailing designed, always-ready-to-float-you PFD, not an inflatable. I also usually wear it when I'm scampering around the boat & dock setting up to head out...just in case, to avoid being like the unfortunate mariners who drowned when tied to a dock or mooring.
I could never feel as safe wearing an inflatable. I worry about boating friends who use them. So much can go wrong on the way overboard (or long before...did the cartridge leak? Is the mechanism working? etc.) that will render it unlikely to get inflated after one hits the water.
Plus when inflated they are bulky and obstructive, like the old horse-collar "life jackets" - whereas with a well designed & fitted paddle/sail PFD one can swim half-decently (if one is at least a half-decent swimmer :-), and they are less obstructive when re-entering a boat from the water.
cheers, John
On 12/2/20 9:02 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a life jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u... < https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 214, Issue 1 ************************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:18:51 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: < CAGjBOA4aE2G-1NVWPzLAGr7LEvDwR8NUcX0NMUfNwLodRueHbg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
What Rusty wrote are good points and for high seas very true.
Howard's system, I would agree, could be adapted to a Mboat (as long as there are no lifelines).
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 12:01 PM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 214, Issue 2 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Howard's system avoids most of the problem of the stirrup going under the hull. It is slick and requires some practice and it is a rolling motion into the cockpit over the lee rail. (As I noted before lifelines cannot be present). IMO the system will work better on the M15 as the boat will roll more as the weight goes into the stirrup. A bit off this topic but a reminder to all - For those that receive the group's emails as a Digest (aka, a daily or weekly all-in-one with all email list activity) please when replying edit your Subject Line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest...". It is also polite to remove all the unrelated topics and replies that come in the daily or weekly digest (depending on how you receive the email). This makes your response clear, concise and a smaller data packet v. page/screen upon page/screen of unrelated data/comments. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 8:27 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
True about drag in the water turning the boat off the wind, with a stern ladder. Hadn't thought about that, I use mine just for swimming so far, haven't gone overboard except intentionally, so far.
But it's at least a plan A, or maybe plan B, if I had a stirrup device of some sort as plan A.
Actually, plan A is to not go overboard!
A stirrup loop is used with kayak rescues, to help someone with low agility, or low upper body strength, or fatigued from immersion, etc. re-enter their boat when rescuing them.
But it has the same issues mentioned below, feet go under the boat, pushing anything close to straight up on it is still difficult.
It is better than no stirrup, in a bad situation, but still limited help for someone with poor physical conditioning.
cheers, John
On 12/3/20 3:27 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hmmm each to his own.....I swim off my m15 occasionally. Sure like the ladder. I put it on after trying to climb in over the side. It's a lot harder than it looks as your feet tend to slide under the boat. Notice that the "expert" didn't look very graceful either Try it first without strap (make sure you have a helper nearby). I suppose the strap helps and is better than no-strap but I am dubiousof it being anywhere near as easy or as safe as a ladder which makes climbing in a much more dignified experience.
On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 2:12:34 PM PST, Jon Barber < brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Copy that. Never liked the idea of a stern mounted boarding ladder. The backstay is right in the way. When I sailed with the Nor Cal Potters Bay Area Messabout I devised a similar reentry sling in my 17. I used orange ratchet straps minus the ratchet and hung them from the perforated aluminum sheet rail older Monty17's have. I made two loops on each side, gathering them loosely with zip ties. I was able to test them with the boat on the trailer to determine how low they should hang. I didn't need to try them in earnest, thankfully. I now tether up whenever I sail. An aside on the same subject. I had dog tags made, one side has my name and address, the other my wife's name and phone number. Just in case.
Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
Has anyone tried this system on a M15? I weigh in @ 200 lb and have concerns that the roll induced with this entry system might be enough to capsize an M15. I am already rigged for this with a line from stem to stern on the starboard side that I use to maneuver the boat in my slip. All I would have to do is determine the proper length of the loop for getting my waist to the gunnel. George Merry Helen II 96 M15 #602 "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails" On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:06 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Howard's system avoids most of the problem of the stirrup going under the hull. It is slick and requires some practice and it is a rolling motion into the cockpit over the lee rail. (As I noted before lifelines cannot be present).
IMO the system will work better on the M15 as the boat will roll more as the weight goes into the stirrup.
A bit off this topic but a reminder to all -
For those that receive the group's emails as a Digest (aka, a daily or weekly all-in-one with all email list activity) please when replying edit your Subject Line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest...". It is also polite to remove all the unrelated topics and replies that come in the daily or weekly digest (depending on how you receive the email). This makes your response clear, concise and a smaller data packet v. page/screen upon page/screen of unrelated data/comments.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 8:27 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
True about drag in the water turning the boat off the wind, with a stern ladder. Hadn't thought about that, I use mine just for swimming so far, haven't gone overboard except intentionally, so far.
But it's at least a plan A, or maybe plan B, if I had a stirrup device of some sort as plan A.
Actually, plan A is to not go overboard!
A stirrup loop is used with kayak rescues, to help someone with low agility, or low upper body strength, or fatigued from immersion, etc. re-enter their boat when rescuing them.
But it has the same issues mentioned below, feet go under the boat, pushing anything close to straight up on it is still difficult.
It is better than no stirrup, in a bad situation, but still limited help for someone with poor physical conditioning.
cheers, John
On 12/3/20 3:27 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hmmm each to his own.....I swim off my m15 occasionally. Sure like the ladder. I put it on after trying to climb in over the side. It's a lot harder than it looks as your feet tend to slide under the boat. Notice that the "expert" didn't look very graceful either Try it first without strap (make sure you have a helper nearby). I suppose the strap helps and is better than no-strap but I am dubiousof it being anywhere near as easy or as safe as a ladder which makes climbing in a much more dignified experience.
On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 2:12:34 PM PST, Jon Barber < brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Copy that. Never liked the idea of a stern mounted boarding ladder. The backstay is right in the way. When I sailed with the Nor Cal Potters Bay Area Messabout I devised a similar reentry sling in my 17. I used orange ratchet straps minus the ratchet and hung them from the perforated aluminum sheet rail older Monty17's have. I made two loops on each side, gathering them loosely with zip ties. I was able to test them with the boat on the trailer to determine how low they should hang. I didn't need to try them in earnest, thankfully. I now tether up whenever I sail. An aside on the same subject. I had dog tags made, one side has my name and address, the other my wife's name and phone number. Just in case.
Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
Roll a M15? The 15 has more ballast than the SCAMP. You can get a M15 to go on her side by pulling down while just aft of the bow. (A little trick for ya'all wanting to wash the toe rails.) To get aboard you want the boat to dip the toe rail close the water so you can roll into the cockpit across the combing. IMO in controlled conditions test the system. You need to practice anyhow before attempting in 35 knots and 15' seas. ;-) :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 5:29 PM George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone tried this system on a M15? I weigh in @ 200 lb and have concerns that the roll induced with this entry system might be enough to capsize an M15.
I am already rigged for this with a line from stem to stern on the starboard side that I use to maneuver the boat in my slip. All I would have to do is determine the proper length of the loop for getting my waist to the gunnel.
George Merry Helen II 96 M15 #602 "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:06 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Howard's system avoids most of the problem of the stirrup going under the hull. It is slick and requires some practice and it is a rolling motion into the cockpit over the lee rail. (As I noted before lifelines cannot be present).
IMO the system will work better on the M15 as the boat will roll more as the weight goes into the stirrup.
A bit off this topic but a reminder to all -
For those that receive the group's emails as a Digest (aka, a daily or weekly all-in-one with all email list activity) please when replying edit your Subject Line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest...". It is also polite to remove all the unrelated topics and replies that come in the daily or weekly digest (depending on how you receive the email). This makes your response clear, concise and a smaller data packet v. page/screen upon page/screen of unrelated data/comments.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 8:27 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
True about drag in the water turning the boat off the wind, with a stern ladder. Hadn't thought about that, I use mine just for swimming so far, haven't gone overboard except intentionally, so far.
But it's at least a plan A, or maybe plan B, if I had a stirrup device of some sort as plan A.
Actually, plan A is to not go overboard!
A stirrup loop is used with kayak rescues, to help someone with low agility, or low upper body strength, or fatigued from immersion, etc. re-enter their boat when rescuing them.
But it has the same issues mentioned below, feet go under the boat, pushing anything close to straight up on it is still difficult.
It is better than no stirrup, in a bad situation, but still limited help for someone with poor physical conditioning.
cheers, John
On 12/3/20 3:27 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hmmm each to his own.....I swim off my m15 occasionally. Sure like the ladder. I put it on after trying to climb in over the side. It's a lot harder than it looks as your feet tend to slide under the boat. Notice that the "expert" didn't look very graceful either Try it first without strap (make sure you have a helper nearby). I suppose the strap helps and is better than no-strap but I am dubiousof it being anywhere near as easy or as safe as a ladder which makes climbing in a much more dignified experience.
On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 2:12:34 PM PST, Jon Barber < brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Copy that. Never liked the idea of a stern mounted boarding ladder. The backstay is right in the way. When I sailed with the Nor Cal Potters Bay Area Messabout I devised a similar reentry sling in my 17. I used orange ratchet straps minus the ratchet and hung them from the perforated aluminum sheet rail older Monty17's have. I made two loops on each side, gathering them loosely with zip ties. I was able to test them with the boat on the trailer to determine how low they should hang. I didn't need to try them in earnest, thankfully. I now tether up whenever I sail. An aside on the same subject. I had dog tags made, one side has my name and address, the other my wife's name and phone number. Just in case.
Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
One good thing about my boat's RudderCraft Rudder, I could add folding steps to it and remove the fold up stairs that I never cared for anyway. M17's seem to have very cluttered sterns with the outboard on one side, the ladder on the other, and the rudder in the middle. On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 5:13 PM Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
Copy that. Never liked the idea of a stern mounted boarding ladder. The backstay is right in the way. When I sailed with the Nor Cal Potters Bay Area Messabout I devised a similar reentry sling in my 17. I used orange ratchet straps minus the ratchet and hung them from the perforated aluminum sheet rail older Monty17's have. I made two loops on each side, gathering them loosely with zip ties. I was able to test them with the boat on the trailer to determine how low they should hang. I didn't need to try them in earnest, thankfully. I now tether up whenever I sail. An aside on the same subject. I had dog tags made, one side has my name and address, the other my wife's name and phone number. Just in case.
Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 11:00 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Capsize recover/re-entry (Rusty Knorr) 2. Re: Capsize recover/re-entry (Dave Scobie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:00:08 -0800 From: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: <FDCD41FE-A856-4C36-9273-BB0E17DB5F0D@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Dec 2, 2020, at 11:00 AM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com wrote:
?Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Fwd: Clever (Conbert Benneck) 2. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 3. Re: Fwd: Clever (Edward Epifani) 4. Re: Fwd: Clever (casioqv@usermail.com) 5. Re: Fwd: Clever - safety plans (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:16:24 -0600 From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <9dd0e3e5-a517-6672-3a8b-5e02ab9b74e8@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea? that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:42:00 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <
MWHPR18MB13423975A45ADF51A6BD7B8AB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue
plans...
Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:48:07 +0000 From: Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <
MWHPR18MB13426E3F418681757AD554FDB2F30@MWHPR18MB1342.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
A grim aside, I?ve known three mariners who drowned while moored at
docks, having no plans to re-enter their boats in the event of falling overboard. Two armed deadlift pretty much impossible for anyone advanced in age.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:42 AM, Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue
plans...
Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:02:23 -0800 (PST) From: casioqv@usermail.com To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever Message-ID: <467051894.14998114.1606928543768.JavaMail.zimbra@usermail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a
life
jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other
competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <
montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:55:12 -0800 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever - safety plans Message-ID: <78fed254-1eb4-8e64-e1e4-bd196be0baca@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Safety plans & furnishings...
My M17 has a transom mounted swim ladder, normally stowed folded but I can deploy it from in the water if needed. Just a flimsy snap strap and one worn out bungee ball cord keep it stowed upright.
I'm wearing my PFD at all times while under way, which is a well fitting, properly fitted, paddling/sailing designed, always-ready-to-float-you PFD, not an inflatable. I also usually wear it when I'm scampering around the boat & dock setting up to head out...just in case, to avoid being like the unfortunate mariners who drowned when tied to a dock or mooring.
I could never feel as safe wearing an inflatable. I worry about boating friends who use them. So much can go wrong on the way overboard (or
long
before...did the cartridge leak? Is the mechanism working? etc.) that will render it unlikely to get inflated after one hits the water.
Plus when inflated they are bulky and obstructive, like the old horse-collar "life jackets" - whereas with a well designed & fitted paddle/sail PFD one can swim half-decently (if one is at least a half-decent swimmer :-), and they are less obstructive when re-entering a boat from the water.
cheers, John
On 12/2/20 9:02 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: Good question! I need to add a permanent swim ladder to my M15, but haven't installed one yet. That said, I always sail clipped in with a harness, and put out a removable swim ladder when at anchor. These days, 99% of my sailing is with my 3 year old son, and we both always wear a life jacket and clip in unless inside the cabin. I added a large stainless bow eye just under the companionway step for clipping in the cockpit, and use a dockline from the bow cleat to the stern cleat if I need to go forward... however there is never really a need to go forward in an M15 if you have a jib downhaul.
When racing in calm conditions with experienced crew and a lot of other competitors and spectators around, I will forego the harness and tether so it doesn't slow me down. Also, I *can* enter an M15 using my own strength without a ladder, largely because I'm heavy enough to roll the boat to near the waterline.
Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 S/V Defiant
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 8:42:00 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Fwd: Clever
Certainly begs the question: what are Montgomery sailor?s rescue plans... Both solo and companion sailing? Have you practiced?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 2, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
Good morning fellow sailors,
Here is an excellent idea that will make a wonderful Christmas present for yourself or any sailor firends
Happy holidays,
Connie
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Clever Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:21:47 +0100 From: benneck@gmx.de To: 'Conbert Benneck' <chbenneck@gmail.com>
Dad,
This is one of those ?Why didn?t I think of that? devices:
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
<
https://newatlas.com/marine/seearch-wearable-inflatable-open-water-rescue/?u...
Gerhard
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
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Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:18:51 -0800 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com>, For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Capsize recover/re-entry Message-ID: < CAGjBOA4aE2G-1NVWPzLAGr7LEvDwR8NUcX0NMUfNwLodRueHbg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
What Rusty wrote are good points and for high seas very true.
Howard's system, I would agree, could be adapted to a Mboat (as long as there are no lifelines).
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 12:01 PM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Stern mounted boarding ladders are considered a very poor choice by open water sailors. Grabbing on to the stern of a boat moving through the water after a capsize is going to pivot the boat downwind, likely filling the sail and making the boat take off, furthering the difficulty of re-boarding, or making it impossible. For those considering re-entry options after a capsize or unintended going overboard, Howard Rice and John Welsford have devised an ingenious system for SCAMP using straps for re-entry. Anyone at any age should be able to easily re-enter a Monty with an adaptation of this system. These guys are ocean sailors on small boats, they know what they are talking about.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
------------------------------
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participants (7)
-
Dave Scobie -
George Iemmolo -
John Schinnerer -
Jon Barber -
Keith R. Martin -
Lawrence Winiarski -
Sailing Spark