RE: M_Boats: Telltales on Mainsail?
Thanks everyone for the great information! I did search the achieves at www.msog.org and found some great threads. A couple of threads pointed to an article on reefing from Pineapple Sales http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/reefing.htm . The article was good reading, as was the achieves, and your replies. Thank You! There seems to be 2 schools of thought regarding on what point of sail to reef a small boat. Some prefer to reef on a close reach, other prefer to reef while hove-to. In our M-15 (#407) all our lines are lead aft but, as I sail alone, I still must let go of the tiller in order to reef. I am concerned about letting go of the tiller on a close reach in high winds. Certainly she would fall off-wind or round up? Any thoughts or comments? The heave-to method would allow me to secure the tiller in a hard-over position and then have both hands free to work the lines. I want to give this method a try next time but will first practice and attempt to perfect heaving-to! It looks like I made 2 mistakes yesterday while heaving-to. 1- The back winded Jib was not fully flat, I should have sheeted it in tighter. And 2- it sounds like I should have sheeted in the main just a bit. I will give these a try on Monday. From the pictures in the books <grin> I was expecting the bow to be apx. into the wind, with a side-to-side wiggle. Yesterday I hove-to on a port tack and the bow settled apx. 30 degrees off-wind to port and no-wiggle. I also seemed to be making more forward headway than I expected, apx. 1.7 - 1.9 knots of forward movement in apx. 15 - 20 knots of wind. Any other thoughts or ideas? Thanks again, Randy Graves M-15 #407
Randy: Reef early!! Practice in light airs. I mark the mainsheet where it will be at the cleat with each reef so I don't have to guess how much to lower the main. I use a tiller tamer. It doesn't take long so going forward shouldn't be too bad if the main is luffing. I'm also using a smaller and heavier jib when I sail in winds over 10 knots. The problem I have with the heave-to method is the chop/waves pounding against the hull tend to make it no better than just staying close hauled. In my opinion, the key is to stay as calm as possible. Reefing in 20 knot winds can be a challange. I once tried reefing in heavy winds with the motor running and it only made it worse. I kept going around in circles. The more I sail the less I rely on the motor. Rich Cottrell Really M15 Randy Graves <RandyG@cite.nic.edu> wrote: Thanks everyone for the great information! I did search the achieves at www.msog.org and found some great threads. A couple of threads pointed to an article on reefing from Pineapple Sales http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/reefing.htm . The article was good reading, as was the achieves, and your replies. Thank You! There seems to be 2 schools of thought regarding on what point of sail to reef a small boat. Some prefer to reef on a close reach, other prefer to reef while hove-to. In our M-15 (#407) all our lines are lead aft but, as I sail alone, I still must let go of the tiller in order to reef. I am concerned about letting go of the tiller on a close reach in high winds. Certainly she would fall off-wind or round up? Any thoughts or comments? The heave-to method would allow me to secure the tiller in a hard-over position and then have both hands free to work the lines. I want to give this method a try next time but will first practice and attempt to perfect heaving-to! It looks like I made 2 mistakes yesterday while heaving-to. 1- The back winded Jib was not fully flat, I should have sheeted it in tighter. And 2- it sounds like I should have sheeted in the main just a bit. I will give these a try on Monday. From the pictures in the books I was expecting the bow to be apx. into the wind, with a side-to-side wiggle. Yesterday I hove-to on a port tack and the bow settled apx. 30 degrees off-wind to port and no-wiggle. I also seemed to be making more forward headway than I expected, apx. 1.7 - 1.9 knots of forward movement in apx. 15 - 20 knots of wind. Any other thoughts or ideas? Thanks again, Randy Graves M-15 #407
ATTACHMENT part 2 application/ms-tnef name=winmail.dat _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Randy, You are certainly on the right tack! I heave to frequently in my M15 for lunch breaks and for reefing. I believe that it is one of the most calming techiques to have in your kit of experience. The sails to flog and raise the anxiety and the boat handles by itself for long periods of time even while you weight is moving around the small boat. Once you understand the mechanics of heaving to you just need to expieriment to get it right as you are. The footing speed while hove to should be fast enough to allow the boat to head up in a shifing gust (.5 kts is probably too slow) and avoid a knockdown but slow enough to not self tack in the same shifing gust(2kts is probably too fast). Some aproaches that help are as follows: Get the speed off of the boat and down to around .5 to 1 kt before you fix the tiller and main position. Think ahead and make sure you have comfortable sea room for footing along on the tack you chose ( practice reefing from either tack. If you have the sea room pick the tack that gives the better angle to the waves ( the wind is always from the same direction as the waves) Set up the main and tiller configuration to have the tiller quite a ways off center to quickly head up before the boat builds up speed on the gusts. The pinapple sails reefing sequence is correct. However if you do not have a topping lift or a boom kicker to hold the boom up you can start by shortening the clew before anything else. I did this for years but I have a bolt rope in the luff and not sail slugs. With slugs this process could put undue strain on the lowest slug. Heaving to has become such a valuable characteristic in a boat I do not believe I would own a cruising boat that could not be set up this way. Thanks Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" M15 #310
The heave-to method would allow me to secure the tiller in a hard-over position and then have both hands free to work the lines. I want to give this method a try next time but will first practice and attempt to perfect heaving-to!
It looks like I made 2 mistakes yesterday while heaving-to. 1- The back winded Jib was not fully flat, I should have sheeted it in tighter. And 2- it sounds like I should have sheeted in the main just a bit. I will give these a try on Monday. From the pictures in the books <grin> I was expecting the bow to be apx. into the wind, with a side-to-side wiggle. Yesterday I hove-to on a port tack and the bow settled apx. 30 degrees off-wind to port and no-wiggle. I also seemed to be making more forward headway than I expected, apx. 1.7 - 1.9 knots of forward movement in apx. 15 - 20 knots of wind. Any other thoughts or ideas?
Thanks again, Randy Graves M-15 #407
ATTACHMENT part 2 application/ms-tnef name=winmail.dat _______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Randy, When you heave to you let the main run free. Do not sheet it in like you do the jib. If I were single handing I think the only choice to reef in any kind of heavy air would be to heave to. With crew you may be able to do it on the run. Jesse M 15 #343 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Graves" <RandyG@cite.nic.edu> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: Telltales on Mainsail?
Thanks everyone for the great information! I did search the achieves at www.msog.org and found some great threads. A couple of threads pointed to an article on reefing from Pineapple Sales http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/reefing.htm . The article was good reading, as was the achieves, and your replies. Thank You!
There seems to be 2 schools of thought regarding on what point of sail to reef a small boat. Some prefer to reef on a close reach, other prefer to reef while hove-to. In our M-15 (#407) all our lines are lead aft but, as I sail alone, I still must let go of the tiller in order to reef. I am concerned about letting go of the tiller on a close reach in high winds. Certainly she would fall off-wind or round up? Any thoughts or comments?
The heave-to method would allow me to secure the tiller in a hard-over position and then have both hands free to work the lines. I want to give this method a try next time but will first practice and attempt to perfect heaving-to!
It looks like I made 2 mistakes yesterday while heaving-to. 1- The back winded Jib was not fully flat, I should have sheeted it in tighter. And 2- it sounds like I should have sheeted in the main just a bit. I will give these a try on Monday. From the pictures in the books <grin> I was expecting the bow to be apx. into the wind, with a side-to-side wiggle. Yesterday I hove-to on a port tack and the bow settled apx. 30 degrees off-wind to port and no-wiggle. I also seemed to be making more forward headway than I expected, apx. 1.7 - 1.9 knots of forward movement in apx. 15 - 20 knots of wind. Any other thoughts or ideas?
Thanks again, Randy Graves M-15 #407
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Randy, Don't you just love confusion? Never heave to with the main running free, it sort of defeats the purpose and the boat will oscilate back and forth almost beam on to the seas. In theory you can leave the main cleated just like you were on a beat. You just tack without moving the jib across the bow. Just tack slowly to take most but not all the forward speed off of the boat, hold the tiller to leward on the new tack and the boat should just foot into the waves making some forward progress. In practice My M15 will tack on it's own if I leave it that way so I ease the mainsheet out a few to several inchs and then cleat it and watch what the boat does for little while before I trust it enough to go below for several minutes. I have gone along hove to for up to an hour while I made lunch and repacked some things. It really does work well. Thanks Doug Kelch --- Jesse Tate <gunsblazing@charter.net> wrote:
Randy,
When you heave to you let the main run free. Do not sheet it in like you do the jib. If I were single handing I think the only choice to reef in any kind of heavy air would be to heave to. With crew you may be able to do it on the run.
Jesse M 15 #343 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Graves" <RandyG@cite.nic.edu> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: Telltales on Mainsail?
Thanks everyone for the great information! I did search the achieves at www.msog.org and found some great threads. A couple of threads pointed to an article on reefing from Pineapple Sales http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/reefing.htm . The article was good reading, as was the achieves, and your replies. Thank You!
There seems to be 2 schools of thought regarding on what point of sail to reef a small boat. Some prefer to reef on a close reach, other prefer to reef while hove-to. In our M-15 (#407) all our lines are lead aft but, as I sail alone, I still must let go of the tiller in order to reef. I am concerned about letting go of the tiller on a close reach in high winds. Certainly she would fall off-wind or round up? Any thoughts or comments?
The heave-to method would allow me to secure the tiller in a hard-over position and then have both hands free to work the lines. I want to give this method a try next time but will first practice and attempt to perfect heaving-to!
It looks like I made 2 mistakes yesterday while heaving-to. 1- The back winded Jib was not fully flat, I should have sheeted it in tighter. And 2- it sounds like I should have sheeted in the main just a bit. I will give these a try on Monday. From the pictures in the books <grin> I was expecting the bow to be apx. into the wind, with a side-to-side wiggle. Yesterday I hove-to on a port tack and the bow settled apx. 30 degrees off-wind to port and no-wiggle. I also seemed to be making more forward headway than I expected, apx. 1.7 - 1.9 knots of forward movement in apx. 15 - 20 knots of wind. Any other thoughts or ideas?
Thanks again, Randy Graves M-15 #407
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Hello- I rarely post to the list, but thought I would put my two cents in on reefing. Reefing, on a close reach works, but can be dicey since the M15 will only sail herself as long as the wind remains steady, and the crew remains in one place. I tend to leave reefing until playing the main is needed in the gusts, which makes things worse. Also, I'm always worried that the boat would sail away without me if I happened to fall off. Reefing hove is stress free by comparison. The M15 is very stable hove- to. It will fore- reach at about 1 knot, but as long as I have sea room I don't worry about this. Adjusting the sails might slow the boat, but I haven't spent much time trying to find out what effect this might have. The boat will stay hove to no matter what the wind does, and heels much less than when close reaching. Here's how I heave to and reef: To heave to: -I tack the boat without uncleating the jib. -Then I sail the new tack until the boat looses most of it's forward momentum. -When the boat has slowed enough, I can lash the tiller over so it is steering the boat to windward without the boat being at risk of tacking. The boat is now hove to. To reef: -I slack the main so the front 2/3 or so is luffing. -Then I uncleat the downhaul and lower the main until I can tie a line through the front reef eye to the boom goose neck. -Next I pull in the reef line. I'm careful not to over tighten it. There is a 2-1 purchase, and the sail is much smaller, so it's easy to make it too tight. -Then I raise the sail, and downhaul it. -Last, I tie the reef points. I only use them to hold the extra sail, not to add tension. -With this done, I can unlash the helm and set sail on my new course. Without a topping lift this will be more difficult, but I think the procedure should be the same. -Ian M15 #300
Doug, Thanks for the clarification on heaving to and the position of the mainsheet. You are correct. Jesse ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kelch" <doug_kelch@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 6:57 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Telltales on Mainsail?
Randy,
Don't you just love confusion?
Never heave to with the main running free, it sort of defeats the purpose and the boat will oscilate back and forth almost beam on to the seas.
In theory you can leave the main cleated just like you were on a beat. You just tack without moving the jib across the bow. Just tack slowly to take most but not all the forward speed off of the boat, hold the tiller to leward on the new tack and the boat should just foot into the waves making some forward progress.
In practice My M15 will tack on it's own if I leave it that way so I ease the mainsheet out a few to several inchs and then cleat it and watch what the boat does for little while before I trust it enough to go below for several minutes. I have gone along hove to for up to an hour while I made lunch and repacked some things.
It really does work well.
Thanks
Doug Kelch --- Jesse Tate <gunsblazing@charter.net> wrote:
Randy,
When you heave to you let the main run free. Do not sheet it in like you do the jib. If I were single handing I think the only choice to reef in any kind of heavy air would be to heave to. With crew you may be able to do it on the run.
Jesse M 15 #343 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Graves" <RandyG@cite.nic.edu> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: RE: M_Boats: Telltales on Mainsail?
Thanks everyone for the great information! I did search the achieves at www.msog.org and found some great threads. A couple of threads pointed to an article on reefing from Pineapple Sales http://www.sailmaker.com/articles/reefing.htm . The article was good reading, as was the achieves, and your replies. Thank You!
There seems to be 2 schools of thought regarding on what point of sail to reef a small boat. Some prefer to reef on a close reach, other prefer to reef while hove-to. In our M-15 (#407) all our lines are lead aft but, as I sail alone, I still must let go of the tiller in order to reef. I am concerned about letting go of the tiller on a close reach in high winds. Certainly she would fall off-wind or round up? Any thoughts or comments?
The heave-to method would allow me to secure the tiller in a hard-over position and then have both hands free to work the lines. I want to give this method a try next time but will first practice and attempt to perfect heaving-to!
It looks like I made 2 mistakes yesterday while heaving-to. 1- The back winded Jib was not fully flat, I should have sheeted it in tighter. And 2- it sounds like I should have sheeted in the main just a bit. I will give these a try on Monday. From the pictures in the books <grin> I was expecting the bow to be apx. into the wind, with a side-to-side wiggle. Yesterday I hove-to on a port tack and the bow settled apx. 30 degrees off-wind to port and no-wiggle. I also seemed to be making more forward headway than I expected, apx. 1.7 - 1.9 knots of forward movement in apx. 15 - 20 knots of wind. Any other thoughts or ideas?
Thanks again, Randy Graves M-15 #407
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
----
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
participants (5)
-
Doug Kelch -
itl -
Jesse Tate -
Randy Graves -
Richard Cottrell