We mostly sail lakes in the high Sierra and also have interest in the downhill parts of the trip. We tow our Montgomery 15 with a Toyota Tacoma and before that a 4 cylinder Toyota pickup. Those vehicles always towed the boat fine but long downhills always have had my attention because I never feel like there was a whole lot of extra braking capacity with those tow vehicles. I am always surprised when I hear of people towing with passenger cars and having no problem with braking. I'm not pursuing trailer brakes but I try to go slow enough that the manual transmission will hold us back on most grades. David GrahBishop California Message: 17 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:05:43 -0700 From: Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Trailer brakes Message-ID: <CAFwAWQtjq2mEjbvh5t5ncpPrxfyMofvxJJP+X_k=ujq1nyYtHg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I am trying to figure out what brakes are right for my Pacific galvanized trailer. I experienced some scary downhill moments returning to the valley from a high Sierra lake. I thought someone was burning up their brakes, it turned out to be me! After a cooling off period we continued in low gear and kept the speed low. I'd like to return to the mountain lakes with confidence while on the road. Can anyone offer any enlightenment in this subject? I'm dealing with a guy who means well but doesn't know boat trailers. I wanted disc brakes because of fewer moving parts and the fact that the entire brake is accessable for washing after launch and retrieval.He sold me a drum brake surge system but when I started to install I realized the cast iron rotors would not fare well in salt water. Now we're trying to source galvanized drum/hubs. To install a disc system requires replacing the axle as well. I'm not that worried about the cost, within reason and will likely install new springs, too. Any help would be appreciated. I tow with a late model 6 cylinder Tacoma. Thanks, Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
The thing is to start slow and stay slow. I've never had issue towing mountains (Rockies, Cascades, Appalachians, Sierra Nevada, and everything in between). This is also true when I had a Ranger with M17 or Sage 17 behind. I follow the semi speed recommendations posted before the downhill begins and not had an issue (besides the folks passing that seem upset I'm being safe). In most cases I could do the entire downhill run and never use the brakes. With my Tundra, which is an automatic with shift control override, can almost do the same as the Ranger. Automatics want to coast so I find it is a bit harder to avoid the occasional tapping of the brakes. I prefer driving standard shift but pretty impossible to find in a full-sized truck these days. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:02 PM David Grah via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
We mostly sail lakes in the high Sierra and also have interest in the downhill parts of the trip. We tow our Montgomery 15 with a Toyota Tacoma and before that a 4 cylinder Toyota pickup. Those vehicles always towed the boat fine but long downhills always have had my attention because I never feel like there was a whole lot of extra braking capacity with those tow vehicles. I am always surprised when I hear of people towing with passenger cars and having no problem with braking. I'm not pursuing trailer brakes but I try to go slow enough that the manual transmission will hold us back on most grades.
David GrahBishop California
Message: 17 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:05:43 -0700 From: Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Trailer brakes Message-ID: <CAFwAWQtjq2mEjbvh5t5ncpPrxfyMofvxJJP+X_k=ujq1nyYtHg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am trying to figure out what brakes are right for my Pacific galvanized trailer. I experienced some scary downhill moments returning to the valley from a high Sierra lake. I thought someone was burning up their brakes, it turned out to be me! After a cooling off period we continued in low gear and kept the speed low. I'd like to return to the mountain lakes with confidence while on the road. Can anyone offer any enlightenment in this subject? I'm dealing with a guy who means well but doesn't know boat trailers. I wanted disc brakes because of fewer moving parts and the fact that the entire brake is accessable for washing after launch and retrieval.He sold me a drum brake surge system but when I started to install I realized the cast iron rotors would not fare well in salt water. Now we're trying to source galvanized drum/hubs. To install a disc system requires replacing the axle as well. I'm not that worried about the cost, within reason and will likely install new springs, too. Any help would be appreciated. I tow with a late model 6 cylinder Tacoma.
Thanks, Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
Brakes take the energy gain (from the elevation loss) and try to turn it into heat which then needs to dissipatesomehow. This works good when coming to an emergency stop and the heat can dissipate over time, but not so good when it needs to work constantly and you can't dissipate the heat fast enough. Adding brakes to the trailer means that you'll now have 6 wheels to dissipate the heat rather than 4, so it willhelp, but you can still have a problem. A better way is to compress air via the engine and exhaust it via the exhaust. Then the heat just goes away.That's what a Jake brake does and you can approximate it by shifting to a lower gear and letting the engine rev up.On an automatic, you now have the issue of cooling the transmission though. Going slow and/or stopping occasionally allows more time to dissipate the heat. Another idea.....would be to use a parachute behind like on a dragster :-) If you have a Tesla you can use the energy to charge you batteries! The energy has to go somewhere. On Thursday, May 21, 2020, 1:34:31 PM PDT, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: The thing is to start slow and stay slow. I've never had issue towing mountains (Rockies, Cascades, Appalachians, Sierra Nevada, and everything in between). This is also true when I had a Ranger with M17 or Sage 17 behind. I follow the semi speed recommendations posted before the downhill begins and not had an issue (besides the folks passing that seem upset I'm being safe). In most cases I could do the entire downhill run and never use the brakes. With my Tundra, which is an automatic with shift control override, can almost do the same as the Ranger. Automatics want to coast so I find it is a bit harder to avoid the occasional tapping of the brakes. I prefer driving standard shift but pretty impossible to find in a full-sized truck these days. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:02 PM David Grah via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
We mostly sail lakes in the high Sierra and also have interest in the downhill parts of the trip. We tow our Montgomery 15 with a Toyota Tacoma and before that a 4 cylinder Toyota pickup. Those vehicles always towed the boat fine but long downhills always have had my attention because I never feel like there was a whole lot of extra braking capacity with those tow vehicles. I am always surprised when I hear of people towing with passenger cars and having no problem with braking. I'm not pursuing trailer brakes but I try to go slow enough that the manual transmission will hold us back on most grades.
David GrahBishop California
Message: 17 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:05:43 -0700 From: Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Trailer brakes Message-ID: <CAFwAWQtjq2mEjbvh5t5ncpPrxfyMofvxJJP+X_k=ujq1nyYtHg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am trying to figure out what brakes are right for my Pacific galvanized trailer. I experienced some scary downhill moments returning to the valley from a high Sierra lake. I thought someone was burning up their brakes, it turned out to be me! After a cooling off period we continued in low gear and kept the speed low. I'd like to return to the mountain lakes with confidence while on the road. Can anyone offer any enlightenment in this subject? I'm dealing with a guy who means well but doesn't know boat trailers. I wanted disc brakes because of fewer moving parts and the fact that the entire brake is accessable for washing after launch and retrieval.He sold me a drum brake surge system but when I started to install I realized the cast iron rotors would not fare well in salt water. Now we're trying to source galvanized drum/hubs. To install a disc system requires replacing the axle as well. I'm not that worried about the cost, within reason and will likely install new springs, too. Any help would be appreciated. I tow with a late model 6 cylinder Tacoma.
Thanks, Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
Excellent review, but one thing should be added: Brakes are actuated by a noncompressible fluid in the brake line - hydraulic oil. Under normal conditions - street driving / stop lights / brakes aren't subjected to long and heavy use. They are used for very short periods of time, and then as the traffic light turns green and you drive off, your "warm" brakes have time to get rid of the heat in the brakes, prior to your next brake application. If you are towing a trailer with an M15, your brakes are being asked to stop the normal car weight ....PLUS the weight of the M15 / trailer. Again if brakes are only used every now and again... all is well. BUT..... if you are going down a long grade in the mountains, and are continually applying the brakes, they are being overloaded. Brakes convert a car's motion into heat during the braking process; then dissipate the heat to the outside air. On the long downhill grade brakes get hot, .... and hotter, ..... and still hotter. The whole brake drum / disk can get red hot. When that happens the brake hydraulic fluid boils. That creates steam in the brake line system; and suddenly you loose all braking capability - steam is compressible so pushing on the brake pedal doesn't result in more pressure at the brake drum / disk. That means you have no more brakes.......!!!! Connie On 5/21/2020 10:06 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats wrote:
Brakes take the energy gain (from the elevation loss) and try to turn it into heat which then needs to dissipatesomehow. This works good when coming to an emergency stop and the heat can dissipate over time, but not so good when it needs to work constantly and you can't dissipate the heat fast enough. Adding brakes to the trailer means that you'll now have 6 wheels to dissipate the heat rather than 4, so it willhelp, but you can still have a problem.
A better way is to compress air via the engine and exhaust it via the exhaust. Then the heat just goes away.That's what a Jake brake does and you can approximate it by shifting to a lower gear and letting the engine rev up.On an automatic, you now have the issue of cooling the transmission though.
Going slow and/or stopping occasionally allows more time to dissipate the heat.
Another idea.....would be to use a parachute behind like on a dragster :-)
If you have a Tesla you can use the energy to charge you batteries!
The energy has to go somewhere.
On Thursday, May 21, 2020, 1:34:31 PM PDT, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
The thing is to start slow and stay slow. I've never had issue towing mountains (Rockies, Cascades, Appalachians, Sierra Nevada, and everything in between). This is also true when I had a Ranger with M17 or Sage 17 behind. I follow the semi speed recommendations posted before the downhill begins and not had an issue (besides the folks passing that seem upset I'm being safe). In most cases I could do the entire downhill run and never use the brakes.
With my Tundra, which is an automatic with shift control override, can almost do the same as the Ranger. Automatics want to coast so I find it is a bit harder to avoid the occasional tapping of the brakes. I prefer driving standard shift but pretty impossible to find in a full-sized truck these days.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:02 PM David Grah via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
We mostly sail lakes in the high Sierra and also have interest in the downhill parts of the trip. We tow our Montgomery 15 with a Toyota Tacoma and before that a 4 cylinder Toyota pickup. Those vehicles always towed the boat fine but long downhills always have had my attention because I never feel like there was a whole lot of extra braking capacity with those tow vehicles. I am always surprised when I hear of people towing with passenger cars and having no problem with braking. I'm not pursuing trailer brakes but I try to go slow enough that the manual transmission will hold us back on most grades.
David GrahBishop California
Message: 17 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:05:43 -0700 From: Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Trailer brakes Message-ID: <CAFwAWQtjq2mEjbvh5t5ncpPrxfyMofvxJJP+X_k=ujq1nyYtHg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am trying to figure out what brakes are right for my Pacific galvanized trailer. I experienced some scary downhill moments returning to the valley from a high Sierra lake. I thought someone was burning up their brakes, it turned out to be me! After a cooling off period we continued in low gear and kept the speed low. I'd like to return to the mountain lakes with confidence while on the road. Can anyone offer any enlightenment in this subject? I'm dealing with a guy who means well but doesn't know boat trailers. I wanted disc brakes because of fewer moving parts and the fact that the entire brake is accessable for washing after launch and retrieval.He sold me a drum brake surge system but when I started to install I realized the cast iron rotors would not fare well in salt water. Now we're trying to source galvanized drum/hubs. To install a disc system requires replacing the axle as well. I'm not that worried about the cost, within reason and will likely install new springs, too. Any help would be appreciated. I tow with a late model 6 cylinder Tacoma.
Thanks, Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
Going slow and safe is the way to go when trailing. I once towed a SeaSprite 23 from Lake Champlain to Atlantic City with my Land Rover. The combined weight of boat and trailer was over 5000 pounds and the trailer was a "yard trailer" with inoperative brakes. I made it home with nary an issue aside from one canadian driver who somehow wanted to slip between my Landy and the boat while going down the highway. That was a sphincter tightening moment. As stated, engine braking is your friend, even an automatic can engine brake by moving the shifter from drive into the numbered gears, just go slow and downshift one gear at a time. If you are driving a ford product, you also should not tow in OD. art Monty17 #406 On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:06 PM Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Brakes take the energy gain (from the elevation loss) and try to turn it into heat which then needs to dissipatesomehow. This works good when coming to an emergency stop and the heat can dissipate over time, but not so good when it needs to work constantly and you can't dissipate the heat fast enough. Adding brakes to the trailer means that you'll now have 6 wheels to dissipate the heat rather than 4, so it willhelp, but you can still have a problem.
A better way is to compress air via the engine and exhaust it via the exhaust. Then the heat just goes away.That's what a Jake brake does and you can approximate it by shifting to a lower gear and letting the engine rev up.On an automatic, you now have the issue of cooling the transmission though.
Going slow and/or stopping occasionally allows more time to dissipate the heat.
Another idea.....would be to use a parachute behind like on a dragster :-)
If you have a Tesla you can use the energy to charge you batteries!
The energy has to go somewhere.
On Thursday, May 21, 2020, 1:34:31 PM PDT, Dave Scobie < scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
The thing is to start slow and stay slow. I've never had issue towing mountains (Rockies, Cascades, Appalachians, Sierra Nevada, and everything in between). This is also true when I had a Ranger with M17 or Sage 17 behind. I follow the semi speed recommendations posted before the downhill begins and not had an issue (besides the folks passing that seem upset I'm being safe). In most cases I could do the entire downhill run and never use the brakes.
With my Tundra, which is an automatic with shift control override, can almost do the same as the Ranger. Automatics want to coast so I find it is a bit harder to avoid the occasional tapping of the brakes. I prefer driving standard shift but pretty impossible to find in a full-sized truck these days.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:02 PM David Grah via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
We mostly sail lakes in the high Sierra and also have interest in the downhill parts of the trip. We tow our Montgomery 15 with a Toyota Tacoma and before that a 4 cylinder Toyota pickup. Those vehicles always towed the boat fine but long downhills always have had my attention because I never feel like there was a whole lot of extra braking capacity with those tow vehicles. I am always surprised when I hear of people towing with passenger cars and having no problem with braking. I'm not pursuing trailer brakes but I try to go slow enough that the manual transmission will hold us back on most grades.
David GrahBishop California
Message: 17 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 21:05:43 -0700 From: Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Trailer brakes Message-ID: <CAFwAWQtjq2mEjbvh5t5ncpPrxfyMofvxJJP+X_k=ujq1nyYtHg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am trying to figure out what brakes are right for my Pacific galvanized trailer. I experienced some scary downhill moments returning to the valley from a high Sierra lake. I thought someone was burning up their brakes, it turned out to be me! After a cooling off period we continued in low gear and kept the speed low. I'd like to return to the mountain lakes with confidence while on the road. Can anyone offer any enlightenment in this subject? I'm dealing with a guy who means well but doesn't know boat trailers. I wanted disc brakes because of fewer moving parts and the fact that the entire brake is accessable for washing after launch and retrieval.He sold me a drum brake surge system but when I started to install I realized the cast iron rotors would not fare well in salt water. Now we're trying to source galvanized drum/hubs. To install a disc system requires replacing the axle as well. I'm not that worried about the cost, within reason and will likely install new springs, too. Any help would be appreciated. I tow with a late model 6 cylinder Tacoma.
Thanks, Jon Barber Monty17 Ol'44
participants (5)
-
Arthur Haberland -
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
David Grah -
Lawrence Winiarski