Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
If you are going to keep the boat on-water the rudder should, IMO be sealed with epoxy. Varnish cannot be left submerged. Epoxy requires a covering as it isn't UV stable - antifouling paint will protect the epoxy and keep the marine critters away (mostly). :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
If you are going to leave the boat in the water, remove the rudder. Nothing good can come if rudder hanging down waiting for something to hit it etc. Bill Ahrens W. A. Ahrens & Associates.
On Sep 16, 2021, at 7:49 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
If you are going to keep the boat on-water the rudder should, IMO be sealed with epoxy.
Varnish cannot be left submerged.
Epoxy requires a covering as it isn't UV stable - antifouling paint will protect the epoxy and keep the marine critters away (mostly).
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
As an M23 owner, I have had good success with the method Dave Scobie described. It’s too difficult to remove the rudder on an M23. I did, however, have a jet ski take a small chunk out of my wooden rudder recently…right on the trailing edge…The wood chunk was no where to be found so I had to fill it with thickened epoxy and shape it to size by sanding. Maybe this winter I will do a more thorough repair, but it is working for now and is water tight. I did make sure I varnished the epoxy. Just looks wonky as the color doesn’t match. Gerry Wyatt M23 Dhana Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Bill Ahrens <billahrens@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 9:19:29 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Maintenance questions If you are going to leave the boat in the water, remove the rudder. Nothing good can come if rudder hanging down waiting for something to hit it etc. Bill Ahrens W. A. Ahrens & Associates.
On Sep 16, 2021, at 7:49 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
If you are going to keep the boat on-water the rudder should, IMO be sealed with epoxy.
Varnish cannot be left submerged.
Epoxy requires a covering as it isn't UV stable - antifouling paint will protect the epoxy and keep the marine critters away (mostly).
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
Dave, thanks for your reply. Would you cover the rudder in glass and paint it with epoxy over, or just peel off the existing glass and put a few coats of marine epoxy paint? What kind of marine epoxy paint would you recommend using? Thanks.
1. The rudders were not originally wrapped in fiberglass. So, in theory, it should be ok to strip the glass and use bare wood. Nonetheless, there probably was a reason someone decided to use the glass. If you re-glass, use epoxy resin. Also, I think Jerry Montgomery recommends a squared trailing edge 1/16" thick, which is almost impossible to achieve when wrapping with glass. I made my own rudder and wrapped it with glass and ended up with a squared trailing edge 1/8" thick. 2. The area where the handrails are attached may be solid glass--not sure about that. In any event, you can usually remove the handrails without removing the bungs by unfastening the nuts below. If you do have to remove the bungs, they are sacrificial--you will need to buy or make new ones. Traditionally, the bungs are set in varnish and then cut and sanded smooth. -----Original Message----- From: Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 10:09 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: Andrei Caldararu <andreicaldararu@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Maintenance questions Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
Yeah, I have two rudders, the original counterbalance 2-pintle and the sliding rod. Neither glassed nor should they be IMO - why add the weight and bulk? Not needed for strength. An alternative to painting with regular epoxy is to use CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer) from Smith & Co.: http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/ You can order direct from them, or various suppliers carry it. Best price I found some years ago was from Vintage Trailer Supply: https://vintagetrailersupply.com/smiths-cpes-penetrating-epoxy-vts-592/ CPES will penetrate significantly into the wood, whereas straight epoxy is just coating the outside (it will penetrate a tiny bit in porous wood but very little in tight grain hard woods like mahogany etc.) Especially good for penetrating and sealing end grain. And just a light sanding knocks down the grain rise and you are ready to varnish over it. No sanding sanding sanding to smooth it back out like with straight epoxy. cheers, John On 9/16/21 7:51 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
1. The rudders were not originally wrapped in fiberglass. So, in theory, it should be ok to strip the glass and use bare wood. Nonetheless, there probably was a reason someone decided to use the glass. If you re-glass, use epoxy resin. Also, I think Jerry Montgomery recommends a squared trailing edge 1/16" thick, which is almost impossible to achieve when wrapping with glass. I made my own rudder and wrapped it with glass and ended up with a squared trailing edge 1/8" thick.
2. The area where the handrails are attached may be solid glass--not sure about that. In any event, you can usually remove the handrails without removing the bungs by unfastening the nuts below. If you do have to remove the bungs, they are sacrificial--you will need to buy or make new ones. Traditionally, the bungs are set in varnish and then cut and sanded smooth.
-----Original Message----- From: Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 10:09 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: Andrei Caldararu <andreicaldararu@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Maintenance questions
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Here is information on rebedding the handrails (and other deck hardware) - https://m17-375.com/2009/06/28/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-1-cabintop-handr... https://m17-375.com/2009/07/01/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-2-sealing-the-bo... https://m17-375.com/2009/07/03/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-3-applying-4200-... :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
Dave,Thank you for the excellent guide. I just ordered some dolphinite to bed the hand rails on my M17. Would you use 4200 instead? It is mostly garaged but I don’t want any leaks when I’m sailing. I assume 4200 is more leak resistant. On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 07:53:00 AM PDT, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: Here is information on rebedding the handrails (and other deck hardware) - https://m17-375.com/2009/06/28/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-1-cabintop-handr... https://m17-375.com/2009/07/01/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-2-sealing-the-bo... https://m17-375.com/2009/07/03/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-3-applying-4200-... :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
No bedding compound is forever. Dolphinite is a fine 'old school' bedding compound. I prefer Sikaflex 291 or 3M4000/4200. Some like butyl tape (not my favorite choice). DON'T use silicone nor 3M5200! :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 8:06 AM David Platt via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Dave,Thank you for the excellent guide. I just ordered some dolphinite to bed the hand rails on my M17. Would you use 4200 instead? It is mostly garaged but I don’t want any leaks when I’m sailing. I assume 4200 is more leak resistant.
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 07:53:00 AM PDT, Dave Scobie < scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is information on rebedding the handrails (and other deck hardware) -
https://m17-375.com/2009/06/28/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-1-cabintop-handr...
https://m17-375.com/2009/07/01/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-2-sealing-the-bo...
https://m17-375.com/2009/07/03/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-3-applying-4200-...
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
I'm a fan of the butyl tape. I used it to bed or re-bed everything above waterline on my '74 M17. Soooo much easier to work with than glue/caulk type products, whether hardening or non-hardening. And yeah DO NOT use silicone! cheers, John On 9/16/21 8:14 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
No bedding compound is forever. Dolphinite is a fine 'old school' bedding compound. I prefer Sikaflex 291 or 3M4000/4200. Some like butyl tape (not my favorite choice). DON'T use silicone nor 3M5200!
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 8:06 AM David Platt via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Dave,Thank you for the excellent guide. I just ordered some dolphinite to bed the hand rails on my M17. Would you use 4200 instead? It is mostly garaged but I don’t want any leaks when I’m sailing. I assume 4200 is more leak resistant.
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 07:53:00 AM PDT, Dave Scobie < scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is information on rebedding the handrails (and other deck hardware) -
https://m17-375.com/2009/06/28/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-1-cabintop-handr...
https://m17-375.com/2009/07/01/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-2-sealing-the-bo...
https://m17-375.com/2009/07/03/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-3-applying-4200-...
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Dave's right, as usual. Back in the 60's bullding Cal 40's, we bedded everything in Dolfinite. Unlike the polyurethanes it has no adhesive strength- about as much as peanut butter. it WAS very effecting in keeping out water on things that didn't move. The polyurethaes are much better. ________________________________ From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 8:14 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Maintenance questions No bedding compound is forever. Dolphinite is a fine 'old school' bedding compound. I prefer Sikaflex 291 or 3M4000/4200. Some like butyl tape (not my favorite choice). DON'T use silicone nor 3M5200! :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 8:06 AM David Platt via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Dave,Thank you for the excellent guide. I just ordered some dolphinite to bed the hand rails on my M17. Would you use 4200 instead? It is mostly garaged but I don’t want any leaks when I’m sailing. I assume 4200 is more leak resistant.
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 07:53:00 AM PDT, Dave Scobie < scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is information on rebedding the handrails (and other deck hardware) -
https://m17-375.com/2009/06/28/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-1-cabintop-handr...
https://m17-375.com/2009/07/01/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-2-sealing-the-bo...
https://m17-375.com/2009/07/03/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-3-applying-4200-...
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
Jerry, do you know if the cabin top where the hand rail attaches is solid glass or it is balsa core? If it were solid glass it would take some of the pressure off of doing this repair right away. Andrei.
Andrei. Almost all horizontal sections of the deck are balsa cored. Same for M15 and the Sage 15/SC/17. See my prior email that has links to my BLOG and details rebedding deck hardware. As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard? :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:32 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Jerry, do you know if the cabin top where the hand rail attaches is solid glass or it is balsa core? If it were solid glass it would take some of the pressure off of doing this repair right away.
Andrei.
For an M17, depends on your year. Or maybe varies from boat to boat in the early days? Mine is M17 #38, 1974, and there is no balsa core anywhere in the topsides mold layup that I am aware of or have so far discovered. And I've explored most all of it for one reason or another. Re-bedded most everything and added some jib furling guides & clamcleat, port side bow cleat, main halyard to cockpit cheek block & cam cleat. Had the window frames out at one point also. My cabin side decks, sides, & top are stiffened with glassed half-tubes underneath, running side to side, fore and aft of the shroud chainplates and mast step. Also several of same reinforcing the fore-deck between front of cabin and bow stem. Brilliant if you ask me - all glass, nothing to rot if a penetration lets water in, one layer, no core to cut and place, no chance of delamination/poor bond, etc. I am really glad I have this layup. Just means there's a few narrow strips of locations fore to aft where you wouldn't want to install any hardware above, because the bolt(s) would come thru where a stiffening half-tube is. Cockpit floor and locker hatch cores are foam, not balsa, on mine. Maybe it was that way until change of topsides mold, from flush hatch to raised? Don't know when that was. Just guessing. Jerry we may need the story from you on this... cheers, John On 9/16/21 6:39 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Andrei.
Almost all horizontal sections of the deck are balsa cored. Same for M15 and the Sage 15/SC/17. See my prior email that has links to my BLOG and details rebedding deck hardware.
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:32 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Jerry, do you know if the cabin top where the hand rail attaches is solid glass or it is balsa core? If it were solid glass it would take some of the pressure off of doing this repair right away.
Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Addendum - there is a small area of some kind of core material in my cabin top, between the half-tube stiffeners where the mast step/compression post is. I don't know if it's balsa or foam. I'd guess foam since the only other core material on my M17 is foam. I pulled those machine screws & nuts to put bedding at the holes under the tabernacle (there was no sign of any having ever been there) a couple years ago. Everything seemed solid and clean, no sign of rotting balsa. cheers, John On 9/16/21 7:13 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
For an M17, depends on your year. Or maybe varies from boat to boat in the early days?
Mine is M17 #38, 1974, and there is no balsa core anywhere in the topsides mold layup that I am aware of or have so far discovered. And I've explored most all of it for one reason or another. Re-bedded most everything and added some jib furling guides & clamcleat, port side bow cleat, main halyard to cockpit cheek block & cam cleat. Had the window frames out at one point also.
My cabin side decks, sides, & top are stiffened with glassed half-tubes underneath, running side to side, fore and aft of the shroud chainplates and mast step. Also several of same reinforcing the fore-deck between front of cabin and bow stem. Brilliant if you ask me - all glass, nothing to rot if a penetration lets water in, one layer, no core to cut and place, no chance of delamination/poor bond, etc. I am really glad I have this layup.
Just means there's a few narrow strips of locations fore to aft where you wouldn't want to install any hardware above, because the bolt(s) would come thru where a stiffening half-tube is.
Cockpit floor and locker hatch cores are foam, not balsa, on mine.
Maybe it was that way until change of topsides mold, from flush hatch to raised? Don't know when that was. Just guessing. Jerry we may need the story from you on this...
cheers, John
On 9/16/21 6:39 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Andrei.
Almost all horizontal sections of the deck are balsa cored. Same for M15 and the Sage 15/SC/17. See my prior email that has links to my BLOG and details rebedding deck hardware.
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:32 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Jerry, do you know if the cabin top where the hand rail attaches is solid glass or it is balsa core? If it were solid glass it would take some of the pressure off of doing this repair right away.
Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
FWIW my 1979 #310 has balsa core in the deck but foam core on the V-berth platform. On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 9:20 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Addendum - there is a small area of some kind of core material in my cabin top, between the half-tube stiffeners where the mast step/compression post is. I don't know if it's balsa or foam. I'd guess foam since the only other core material on my M17 is foam. I pulled those machine screws & nuts to put bedding at the holes under the tabernacle (there was no sign of any having ever been there) a couple years ago. Everything seemed solid and clean, no sign of rotting balsa.
cheers, John
On 9/16/21 7:13 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
For an M17, depends on your year. Or maybe varies from boat to boat in the early days?
Mine is M17 #38, 1974, and there is no balsa core anywhere in the topsides mold layup that I am aware of or have so far discovered. And I've explored most all of it for one reason or another. Re-bedded most everything and added some jib furling guides & clamcleat, port side bow cleat, main halyard to cockpit cheek block & cam cleat. Had the window frames out at one point also.
My cabin side decks, sides, & top are stiffened with glassed half-tubes underneath, running side to side, fore and aft of the shroud chainplates and mast step. Also several of same reinforcing the fore-deck between front of cabin and bow stem. Brilliant if you ask me - all glass, nothing to rot if a penetration lets water in, one layer, no core to cut and place, no chance of delamination/poor bond, etc. I am really glad I have this layup.
Just means there's a few narrow strips of locations fore to aft where you wouldn't want to install any hardware above, because the bolt(s) would come thru where a stiffening half-tube is.
Cockpit floor and locker hatch cores are foam, not balsa, on mine.
Maybe it was that way until change of topsides mold, from flush hatch to raised? Don't know when that was. Just guessing. Jerry we may need the story from you on this...
cheers, John
On 9/16/21 6:39 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Andrei.
Almost all horizontal sections of the deck are balsa cored. Same for M15 and the Sage 15/SC/17. See my prior email that has links to my BLOG and details rebedding deck hardware.
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:32 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Jerry, do you know if the cabin top where the hand rail attaches is solid glass or it is balsa core? If it were solid glass it would take some of the pressure off of doing this repair right away.
Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
In the very early days we experimented with several ways to stiffen things, before balsa became easily available. I never used the typical (at that time) plywood core because I hate weight in the deck; it's anti-ballast. I honestly don't remember half-tubes altho they are very good stiffeners, but we made a few with foam half round ribs. When I started building the 17, in '73, some of the custom builders were using balsa and I watched those guys very closely. When C&C, in Canada, started using balsa I quickly followed. A salesman walked into my shop and told me that he wanted me to look at a revolutionary new material and flopped down a panel of balsa. He was blown away that I knew what it was. I said how much? Send me some. Great stuff; only vice is dry rot. Makes for lighter and stronger decks. Decks on the Sages are carbon and balsa which is most of the reason they are so stiff and fast. Better living thru chemistry. ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 7:20 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Maintenance questions - deck core (or not) Addendum - there is a small area of some kind of core material in my cabin top, between the half-tube stiffeners where the mast step/compression post is. I don't know if it's balsa or foam. I'd guess foam since the only other core material on my M17 is foam. I pulled those machine screws & nuts to put bedding at the holes under the tabernacle (there was no sign of any having ever been there) a couple years ago. Everything seemed solid and clean, no sign of rotting balsa. cheers, John On 9/16/21 7:13 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
For an M17, depends on your year. Or maybe varies from boat to boat in the early days?
Mine is M17 #38, 1974, and there is no balsa core anywhere in the topsides mold layup that I am aware of or have so far discovered. And I've explored most all of it for one reason or another. Re-bedded most everything and added some jib furling guides & clamcleat, port side bow cleat, main halyard to cockpit cheek block & cam cleat. Had the window frames out at one point also.
My cabin side decks, sides, & top are stiffened with glassed half-tubes underneath, running side to side, fore and aft of the shroud chainplates and mast step. Also several of same reinforcing the fore-deck between front of cabin and bow stem. Brilliant if you ask me - all glass, nothing to rot if a penetration lets water in, one layer, no core to cut and place, no chance of delamination/poor bond, etc. I am really glad I have this layup.
Just means there's a few narrow strips of locations fore to aft where you wouldn't want to install any hardware above, because the bolt(s) would come thru where a stiffening half-tube is.
Cockpit floor and locker hatch cores are foam, not balsa, on mine.
Maybe it was that way until change of topsides mold, from flush hatch to raised? Don't know when that was. Just guessing. Jerry we may need the story from you on this...
cheers, John
On 9/16/21 6:39 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Andrei.
Almost all horizontal sections of the deck are balsa cored. Same for M15 and the Sage 15/SC/17. See my prior email that has links to my BLOG and details rebedding deck hardware.
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:32 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Jerry, do you know if the cabin top where the hand rail attaches is solid glass or it is balsa core? If it were solid glass it would take some of the pressure off of doing this repair right away.
Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Jerry - you definitely did some half-round stiffeners, 'cause I have that on #38 M17. They could be foam half rounds, I haven't busted one open to see if there's anything inside :-) Would make sense as you were using foam slab for cockpit floor and locker hatch stiffening in that boat. Can't look right now but I think some of them I know are not foam half-rounds 'cause I can see an open end. At least one somewhere I could see what looked like a half-tube of cardboard providing the form for the glass and resin. Also on my boat half-rounds are used to stiffen the V-berth platform. cheers, John On 9/17/21 9:45 AM, jerry montgomery wrote:
In the very early days we experimented with several ways to stiffen things, before balsa became easily available. I never used the typical (at that time) plywood core because I hate weight in the deck; it's anti-ballast.
I honestly don't remember half-tubes altho they are very good stiffeners, but we made a few with foam half round ribs.
When I started building the 17, in '73, some of the custom builders were using balsa and I watched those guys very closely. When C&C, in Canada, started using balsa I quickly followed. A salesman walked into my shop and told me that he wanted me to look at a revolutionary new material and flopped down a panel of balsa. He was blown away that I knew what it was. I said how much? Send me some. Great stuff; only vice is dry rot. Makes for lighter and stronger decks. Decks on the Sages are carbon and balsa which is most of the reason they are so stiff and fast. Better living thru chemistry.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:* John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Sent:* Thursday, September 16, 2021 7:20 PM *To:* montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Cc:* John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> *Subject:* M_Boats: Re: Maintenance questions - deck core (or not) Addendum - there is a small area of some kind of core material in my cabin top, between the half-tube stiffeners where the mast step/compression post is. I don't know if it's balsa or foam. I'd guess foam since the only other core material on my M17 is foam. I pulled those machine screws & nuts to put bedding at the holes under the tabernacle (there was no sign of any having ever been there) a couple years ago. Everything seemed solid and clean, no sign of rotting balsa.
cheers, John
On 9/16/21 7:13 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
For an M17, depends on your year. Or maybe varies from boat to boat in the early days?
Mine is M17 #38, 1974, and there is no balsa core anywhere in the topsides mold layup that I am aware of or have so far discovered. And I've explored most all of it for one reason or another. Re-bedded most everything and added some jib furling guides & clamcleat, port side bow cleat, main halyard to cockpit cheek block & cam cleat. Had the window frames out at one point also.
My cabin side decks, sides, & top are stiffened with glassed half-tubes underneath, running side to side, fore and aft of the shroud chainplates and mast step. Also several of same reinforcing the fore-deck between front of cabin and bow stem. Brilliant if you ask me - all glass, nothing to rot if a penetration lets water in, one layer, no core to cut and place, no chance of delamination/poor bond, etc. I am really glad I have this layup.
Just means there's a few narrow strips of locations fore to aft where you wouldn't want to install any hardware above, because the bolt(s) would come thru where a stiffening half-tube is.
Cockpit floor and locker hatch cores are foam, not balsa, on mine.
Maybe it was that way until change of topsides mold, from flush hatch to raised? Don't know when that was. Just guessing. Jerry we may need the story from you on this...
cheers, John
On 9/16/21 6:39 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Andrei.
Almost all horizontal sections of the deck are balsa cored. Same for M15 and the Sage 15/SC/17. See my prior email that has links to my BLOG and details rebedding deck hardware.
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 6:32 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Jerry, do you know if the cabin top where the hand rail attaches is solid glass or it is balsa core? If it were solid glass it would take some of the pressure off of doing this repair right away.
Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net <http://eco-living.net> http://sociocracyconsulting.com <http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi Dave,
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
I haven't used anything, and so far (perhaps since the water is very clean and rather cold) it seems to have worked great. There is only a thin layer of slime on the boat, and I hope when I pull it out in about a month to clean it with a solid washing/rag/maybe light power washing. Should I be using an antifouling paint in order to **protect** the hull and centerboard? Do you recommend I use the same product to coat the rudder too? Should I put a layer of glass on top as well? Thanks, Andrei.
Andrei: A few rare locations one can keep.biata in-water for extended periods without antifouling paint. Lake Dillon Colorado being one I have personal experience. See discussion - https://m17-375.com/2019/02/03/antifouling-bottom-paint-selecting-bottom-pai... Again varnish cannot be used for under water applications. A few hours or day is okay, followed by a drying out period, but longer the finish will fail. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:06 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi Dave,
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
I haven't used anything, and so far (perhaps since the water is very clean and rather cold) it seems to have worked great. There is only a thin layer of slime on the boat, and I hope when I pull it out in about a month to clean it with a solid washing/rag/maybe light power washing.
Should I be using an antifouling paint in order to **protect** the hull and centerboard? Do you recommend I use the same product to coat the rudder too? Should I put a layer of glass on top as well?
Thanks, Andrei.
On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:06 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi Dave,
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
I haven't used anything, and so far (perhaps since the water is very clean and rather cold) it seems to have worked great. There is only a thin layer of slime on the boat, and I hope when I pull it out in about a month to clean it with a solid washing/rag/maybe light power washing.
Should I be using an antifouling paint in order to **protect** the hull and centerboard? Do you recommend I use the same product to coat the rudder too? Should I put a layer of glass on top as well?
Thanks, Andrei.
Salt water or estuarine (mixed fresh/salt), for sure. More than a few weeks and you will get 'hard' (barnacles, mussels, etc.) growth starting on a hull without anti-fouling. In fresh water lakes out west I have not seen it to be necessary. This includes in warmer lakes than Dillon that also have more micro-life in them. Some slime layer may form over months, but it scrubs or pressure-washes off pretty easily. I have personal experience with Klamath Lake - home of MLM blue-green algae, a very soupy lake, shallow and relatively warm thru the summer - where the Ensenada 20 I had years ago lived in the water all season. Some slime layer but nothing more. Also with marinas at Fern Ridge Reservoir near Eugene, OR which are full of boats all season. That's another relatively shallow, relatively warm in summer, murky lake. Vast majority of boats I've seen there have no anti-fouling paint. They get a slime layer to some degree that scrubs off pretty easy. My M17 was in Siltcoos lake near Florence, OR for a month last year - also a relatively shallow, warmer in summer, somewhat murky lake. The in-water parts got a little slimy to the touch is all. Also, my varnish over CPES mahogany rudder had its working end in the water that whole month with no damage to the finish. EXCEPTIONS to the above re anti-fouling paint and fresh water would be where there is 'hard' aquatic life in the fresh water. One example I know of is Lake Champlain, which has fresh water mussels. cheers, John On 9/22/21 7:16 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Andrei:
A few rare locations one can keep.biata in-water for extended periods without antifouling paint. Lake Dillon Colorado being one I have personal experience. See discussion -
https://m17-375.com/2019/02/03/antifouling-bottom-paint-selecting-bottom-pai...
Again varnish cannot be used for under water applications. A few hours or day is okay, followed by a drying out period, but longer the finish will fail.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:06 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi Dave,
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
I haven't used anything, and so far (perhaps since the water is very clean and rather cold) it seems to have worked great. There is only a thin layer of slime on the boat, and I hope when I pull it out in about a month to clean it with a solid washing/rag/maybe light power washing.
Should I be using an antifouling paint in order to **protect** the hull and centerboard? Do you recommend I use the same product to coat the rudder too? Should I put a layer of glass on top as well?
Thanks, Andrei.
On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:06 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi Dave,
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
I haven't used anything, and so far (perhaps since the water is very clean and rather cold) it seems to have worked great. There is only a thin layer of slime on the boat, and I hope when I pull it out in about a month to clean it with a solid washing/rag/maybe light power washing.
Should I be using an antifouling paint in order to **protect** the hull and centerboard? Do you recommend I use the same product to coat the rudder too? Should I put a layer of glass on top as well?
Thanks, Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I agree about Fern Ridge Reservoir near Eugene, OR and Siltcoos Lake near Florence, OR. However, I have found that I could leave my M-1 5 in the cold deep lakes of North Idaho, Lake Pend O'Reille and Lake Couer D'Alene for the entire summer season without a problem. However, I have since moved to Olympia, WA on Puget Sound and have found that my M-15 and trailer need a good scrubbing with fresh water every time I outhaul my boat. Steve M-15 # 335 -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 9:24 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: John Schinnerer Subject: M_Boats: Re: Maintenance questions Salt water or estuarine (mixed fresh/salt), for sure. More than a few weeks and you will get 'hard' (barnacles, mussels, etc.) growth starting on a hull without anti-fouling. In fresh water lakes out west I have not seen it to be necessary. This includes in warmer lakes than Dillon that also have more micro-life in them. Some slime layer may form over months, but it scrubs or pressure-washes off pretty easily. I have personal experience with Klamath Lake - home of MLM blue-green algae, a very soupy lake, shallow and relatively warm thru the summer - where the Ensenada 20 I had years ago lived in the water all season. Some slime layer but nothing more. Also with marinas at Fern Ridge Reservoir near Eugene, OR which are full of boats all season. That's another relatively shallow, relatively warm in summer, murky lake. Vast majority of boats I've seen there have no anti-fouling paint. They get a slime layer to some degree that scrubs off pretty easy. My M17 was in Siltcoos lake near Florence, OR for a month last year - also a relatively shallow, warmer in summer, somewhat murky lake. The in-water parts got a little slimy to the touch is all. Also, my varnish over CPES mahogany rudder had its working end in the water that whole month with no damage to the finish. EXCEPTIONS to the above re anti-fouling paint and fresh water would be where there is 'hard' aquatic life in the fresh water. One example I know of is Lake Champlain, which has fresh water mussels. cheers, John On 9/22/21 7:16 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Andrei:
A few rare locations one can keep.biata in-water for extended periods without antifouling paint. Lake Dillon Colorado being one I have personal experience. See discussion -
https://m17-375.com/2019/02/03/antifouling-bottom-paint-selecting-bottom-pai...
Again varnish cannot be used for under water applications. A few hours or day is okay, followed by a drying out period, but longer the finish will fail.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:06 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi Dave,
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
I haven't used anything, and so far (perhaps since the water is very clean and rather cold) it seems to have worked great. There is only a thin layer of slime on the boat, and I hope when I pull it out in about a month to clean it with a solid washing/rag/maybe light power washing.
Should I be using an antifouling paint in order to **protect** the hull and centerboard? Do you recommend I use the same product to coat the rudder too? Should I put a layer of glass on top as well?
Thanks, Andrei.
On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 6:06 PM Andrei via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi Dave,
As you are keeping the boat in-water did extended periods what antifouling are you using on the hull and centerboard?
I haven't used anything, and so far (perhaps since the water is very clean and rather cold) it seems to have worked great. There is only a thin layer of slime on the boat, and I hope when I pull it out in about a month to clean it with a solid washing/rag/maybe light power washing.
Should I be using an antifouling paint in order to **protect** the hull and centerboard? Do you recommend I use the same product to coat the rudder too? Should I put a layer of glass on top as well?
Thanks, Andrei.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yes, it is. The balsa goes all the way to the radius. ________________________________ From: Andrei via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 6:32 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: andreicaldararu@yahoo.com <andreicaldararu@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Maintenance questions Jerry, do you know if the cabin top where the hand rail attaches is solid glass or it is balsa core? If it were solid glass it would take some of the pressure off of doing this repair right away. Andrei.
I would not use Dolfinite, which is obsolete, or 4200, which has adhesive properties you don't want or need. The best product is Life-Calk poysulfide, just know it is not compatible with plastics. I tend to use 3M 4000, which is sort of like 4200 without the glue. I don't use it, but a lot of knowledgeable folks also swear by butyl rubber foam. -----Original Message----- From: David Platt via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 11:06 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: David Platt <davidplatt93405@yahoo.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Maintenance questions Dave,Thank you for the excellent guide. I just ordered some dolphinite to bed the hand rails on my M17. Would you use 4200 instead? It is mostly garaged but I don’t want any leaks when I’m sailing. I assume 4200 is more leak resistant. On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 07:53:00 AM PDT, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: Here is information on rebedding the handrails (and other deck hardware) - https://m17-375.com/2009/06/28/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-1-cabintop-handr... https://m17-375.com/2009/07/01/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-2-sealing-the-bo... https://m17-375.com/2009/07/03/rebedding-deck-hardware-part-3-applying-4200-... :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, 7:09 AM Andrei Caldararu via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hello fellow Monty owners, first off, I apologize for having to register a new account on the mailing list, somehow my old account seems to have been bungled up and I was not able to recover it. I have two new maintenance questions: a) The rudder on my 1982 M-17 is the one-piece solid mahogany style. When I got it with the boat about 10 years ago it was wrapped in fiberglass, and coated with a couple of layers of some marine varnish. This summer I kept the boat moored in fresh water, and last time I went to it I noticed that large parts of the fiberglass were peeling off. Is the fiberglass needed, or should I just remove it and re-coat the wood with varnish? If I need to redo it all in fiberglass, what should I do to prevent it from peeling again? b) I have a small leak into the cabin around one of the screws that holds the wood hand rails on top of the cabin. I understand that it is important to re-bed the hand rail before the moisture gets inside the balsa core of the cabin top. What is the procedure for doing that? To begin, how does one remove the small wood caps that are covering the screw heads, without destroying the caps? What material do people recommend for the bedding procedure? Thanks,Andrei.
participants (11)
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Andrei Caldararu -
andreicaldararu＠yahoo.com
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Bill Ahrens -
Dave Scobie -
David Platt -
Gerald Wyatt -
Henry Rodriguez -
jerry montgomery -
John Schinnerer -
Steve Trapp -
swwheatley＠comcast.net