Cleat for centerboard pennant ripped out
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
Ouch! Was that spontaneous failure under static load, or was there some shock to the cleat from the CB dropping or something? I would say you need to rebuild that part of the companionway inside bottom frame. One approach would be to cleanly cut away everything broken and splintered. Make a nice clean shape to splice in new teak - I'm imagining a slight trapezoid, with smaller end up. Get a quality piece of straight, tight grain teak to replace what you cut out. Epoxy (thickened to fill any gaps in the joint) and screw it securely (up from underneath) to the remaining solid part of the old piece. After that is in place, trim/sand/fair as necessary to match edges, and re-glass where the glass was broken and had to be cut away (overlapping the old glass on either side and below to add support). And if the old cleat was just screwed into the wood, you might want to through-bolt it when putting it back. You could use cap nuts on the cockpit side, with machine screws cut to length, to avoid protruding bolt ends in the cockpit side. Or nylon insert locknuts with bolts cut flush, which is probably how your winch bolts are done? Another option is to use a cam cleat mounted vertically on the face of the inside (same face as the old cleat). That is, pennant comes off the winch and up through the cam cleat - when you pull the line up, it slides through the cleat, which can (should?) have a fairlead on it to keep the pennant close. I mention this because that's how mine is set up - came that way from previous owner, and it looks to be original, because I don't see any marks from removing a horn-jam cleat like most others seem to have. Also because the cam cleat is in the ballpark of the right vintage to be original (1974). Don't have a picture of that to post but could get one if you want. cheers, John S. On 05/29/2017 05:56 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks John,Static load, maybe a bit of dry rot. I would love to do through bolts but the companionway has the groove that holds my lower hatch board in that location. Maybe there is some way to do it.Tyler From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:17 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cleat for centerboard pennant ripped out Ouch! Was that spontaneous failure under static load, or was there some shock to the cleat from the CB dropping or something? I would say you need to rebuild that part of the companionway inside bottom frame. One approach would be to cleanly cut away everything broken and splintered. Make a nice clean shape to splice in new teak - I'm imagining a slight trapezoid, with smaller end up. Get a quality piece of straight, tight grain teak to replace what you cut out. Epoxy (thickened to fill any gaps in the joint) and screw it securely (up from underneath) to the remaining solid part of the old piece. After that is in place, trim/sand/fair as necessary to match edges, and re-glass where the glass was broken and had to be cut away (overlapping the old glass on either side and below to add support). And if the old cleat was just screwed into the wood, you might want to through-bolt it when putting it back. You could use cap nuts on the cockpit side, with machine screws cut to length, to avoid protruding bolt ends in the cockpit side. Or nylon insert locknuts with bolts cut flush, which is probably how your winch bolts are done? Another option is to use a cam cleat mounted vertically on the face of the inside (same face as the old cleat). That is, pennant comes off the winch and up through the cam cleat - when you pull the line up, it slides through the cleat, which can (should?) have a fairlead on it to keep the pennant close. I mention this because that's how mine is set up - came that way from previous owner, and it looks to be original, because I don't see any marks from removing a horn-jam cleat like most others seem to have. Also because the cam cleat is in the ballpark of the right vintage to be original (1974). Don't have a picture of that to post but could get one if you want. cheers, John S. On 05/29/2017 05:56 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Oh yeah, the bottom companionway holder...what are those pieces called anyhow? There must be a less complicated name for them. Will have to look at mine to see for sure but that groove only goes maybe 1/2" below the edge. Below that is solid wood, opposite (behind, from inside) the cleat. So as long as the through-bolts would come through below the bottom of the groove, you could let out space for the nuts in the backside of the outside piece, it's plenty thick. You'd have to pull it off, mark the cleat bolt locations, make hollows for the nuts, and put it back on. A regular drill bit would do, or a brad point bit, a Forstner bit or a router with a plunge bit. That's the easy part...fixing the inside is the real work... :-o My keel patching doesn't seem such a big deal now. cheers, John S. On 05/30/2017 04:34 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Thanks John,Static load, maybe a bit of dry rot. I would love to do through bolts but the companionway has the groove that holds my lower hatch board in that location. Maybe there is some way to do it.Tyler
From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:17 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cleat for centerboard pennant ripped out
Ouch!
Was that spontaneous failure under static load, or was there some shock to the cleat from the CB dropping or something?
I would say you need to rebuild that part of the companionway inside bottom frame. One approach would be to cleanly cut away everything broken and splintered. Make a nice clean shape to splice in new teak - I'm imagining a slight trapezoid, with smaller end up. Get a quality piece of straight, tight grain teak to replace what you cut out. Epoxy (thickened to fill any gaps in the joint) and screw it securely (up from underneath) to the remaining solid part of the old piece. After that is in place, trim/sand/fair as necessary to match edges, and re-glass where the glass was broken and had to be cut away (overlapping the old glass on either side and below to add support).
And if the old cleat was just screwed into the wood, you might want to through-bolt it when putting it back. You could use cap nuts on the cockpit side, with machine screws cut to length, to avoid protruding bolt ends in the cockpit side. Or nylon insert locknuts with bolts cut flush, which is probably how your winch bolts are done?
Another option is to use a cam cleat mounted vertically on the face of the inside (same face as the old cleat). That is, pennant comes off the winch and up through the cam cleat - when you pull the line up, it slides through the cleat, which can (should?) have a fairlead on it to keep the pennant close.
I mention this because that's how mine is set up - came that way from previous owner, and it looks to be original, because I don't see any marks from removing a horn-jam cleat like most others seem to have. Also because the cam cleat is in the ballpark of the right vintage to be original (1974). Don't have a picture of that to post but could get one if you want.
cheers, John S.
On 05/29/2017 05:56 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Tyler, Get some Stainless steel "T-nuts" and through bold from inside right through the aft cabin bulkhead. You may have to remove the lower board with the groove in it that holds your companionway boards but the ss t-nuts lie flat against the surface and a slight relieving of the back of the removed lower board with the groove in it will allow you to bolt it on over the net ss. t-nuts. Then you have a very secure lashup. If the boxed wood that gave when the cb pennant was on it may have to be replaced. Check also damage at the cb stop nut down in the bottom of the keel. Do you relieve the tension on the pennant and allow the cb to sit on the boat trailer when you tow the boat? If you hang the whole keel from the pennant when you drive over bumps you could have weakened the wood fibers holding the cleat screws over time. Fair winds, Tom B. Monty 17, "AS-IS" On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks John,Static load, maybe a bit of dry rot. I would love to do through bolts but the companionway has the groove that holds my lower hatch board in that location. Maybe there is some way to do it.Tyler
From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:17 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cleat for centerboard pennant ripped out
Ouch!
Was that spontaneous failure under static load, or was there some shock to the cleat from the CB dropping or something?
I would say you need to rebuild that part of the companionway inside bottom frame. One approach would be to cleanly cut away everything broken and splintered. Make a nice clean shape to splice in new teak - I'm imagining a slight trapezoid, with smaller end up. Get a quality piece of straight, tight grain teak to replace what you cut out. Epoxy (thickened to fill any gaps in the joint) and screw it securely (up from underneath) to the remaining solid part of the old piece. After that is in place, trim/sand/fair as necessary to match edges, and re-glass where the glass was broken and had to be cut away (overlapping the old glass on either side and below to add support).
And if the old cleat was just screwed into the wood, you might want to through-bolt it when putting it back. You could use cap nuts on the cockpit side, with machine screws cut to length, to avoid protruding bolt ends in the cockpit side. Or nylon insert locknuts with bolts cut flush, which is probably how your winch bolts are done?
Another option is to use a cam cleat mounted vertically on the face of the inside (same face as the old cleat). That is, pennant comes off the winch and up through the cam cleat - when you pull the line up, it slides through the cleat, which can (should?) have a fairlead on it to keep the pennant close.
I mention this because that's how mine is set up - came that way from previous owner, and it looks to be original, because I don't see any marks from removing a horn-jam cleat like most others seem to have. Also because the cam cleat is in the ballpark of the right vintage to be original (1974). Don't have a picture of that to post but could get one if you want.
cheers, John S.
On 05/29/2017 05:56 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Tyler, I wish I could help, but I don't have any good ideas. Good luck. Our boats were born on the same day. Rich Makela M-17 #233 - Harmony -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats Sent: Monday, May 29, 2017 7:56 PM To: For and About Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Cleat for centerboard pennant ripped out Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
I would just remove the cleat and screws, fill the crack with thickened epoxy, clamp the sides back together, remove any excess epoxy, wait for the rest of the epoxy to cure, screw the cleat back in and sail away. Going forward, I would always take at least one wrap around the winch before going to the cleat so the winch, not the cleat, bears most of the weight.
On May 29, 2017 at 8:56 PM Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
Agree with this as a quicker version of my original suggestion to rebuild it more completely, as long as you check for rotted wood in the broken areas and if there is any, cut it out and fill with thickened epoxy. And, I would put some nice hefty stainless screws up through the smaller broken piece into the bigger still solid piece, as backup for the glue job. cheers, John S. On 05/31/2017 09:42 AM, STANLEY WHEATLEY wrote:
I would just remove the cleat and screws, fill the crack with thickened epoxy, clamp the sides back together, remove any excess epoxy, wait for the rest of the epoxy to cure, screw the cleat back in and sail away. Going forward, I would always take at least one wrap around the winch before going to the cleat so the winch, not the cleat, bears most of the weight.
On May 29, 2017 at 8:56 PM Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks John, and Stanley,Already trying this, like the through bolt ideas!Also good point about not being cleated when driving with boat on the trailer!Tyler From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:39 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cleat for centerboard pennant ripped out Agree with this as a quicker version of my original suggestion to rebuild it more completely, as long as you check for rotted wood in the broken areas and if there is any, cut it out and fill with thickened epoxy. And, I would put some nice hefty stainless screws up through the smaller broken piece into the bigger still solid piece, as backup for the glue job. cheers, John S. On 05/31/2017 09:42 AM, STANLEY WHEATLEY wrote:
I would just remove the cleat and screws, fill the crack with thickened epoxy, clamp the sides back together, remove any excess epoxy, wait for the rest of the epoxy to cure, screw the cleat back in and sail away. Going forward, I would always take at least one wrap around the winch before going to the cleat so the winch, not the cleat, bears most of the weight.
On May 29, 2017 at 8:56 PM Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it? Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
My opinion is that the through bolting of the cleat would not greatly reduce the chance of this happening again. The screws didn't pull out, the wood split. The force is all downward. If the wood split with the cleat through bolted, you would have the same problem with additional damage to the fiberglass. If I was concerned about the strength of the epoxy repair of the team, I would add a piece of 1" angle aluminum or ss to reinforce it and mount the cleat through it. The 1" angle would need to extend beyond the ends of the break and be securely attached with screws on both faces. That's my opinion and worth everything you paid for it. ;-) Mark Dvorscak On May 31, 2017 11:08 AM, "Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks John, and Stanley,Already trying this, like the through bolt ideas!Also good point about not being cleated when driving with boat on the trailer!Tyler
From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:39 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Cleat for centerboard pennant ripped out
Agree with this as a quicker version of my original suggestion to rebuild it more completely, as long as you check for rotted wood in the broken areas and if there is any, cut it out and fill with thickened epoxy. And, I would put some nice hefty stainless screws up through the smaller broken piece into the bigger still solid piece, as backup for the glue job.
cheers, John S.
On 05/31/2017 09:42 AM, STANLEY WHEATLEY wrote:
I would just remove the cleat and screws, fill the crack with thickened epoxy, clamp the sides back together, remove any excess epoxy, wait for the rest of the epoxy to cure, screw the cleat back in and sail away. Going forward, I would always take at least one wrap around the winch before going to the cleat so the winch, not the cleat, bears most of the weight.
On May 29, 2017 at 8:56 PM Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats <
montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi all, Looking for advice. My cleat for my centerboard line ripped out as
shown. As you can see it was screwed into a bit of teak and actually broke the fiberglass frame surrounding it. Any experience with this? A better way to secure it?
Any advice welcome! Thanks Tyler Heerwagen M-17 Seranita #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (6)
-
John Schinnerer -
Mark Dvorscak -
Rich Makela -
STANLEY WHEATLEY -
Thomas Buzzi -
Tyler Heerwagen