Scott, You answered the questions about Flicka performance better than I possibly could! Thanks, Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: <Wilsometer@aol.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 5:30 AM Subject: M_Boats: f l i c k a 2 0 vs M23 In a message dated 3/19/02 7:30:11 PM, htmills@bright.net writes: << Years ago there was a Flicka at the Sandusky in-the-water boat show. It certainly is a neat boat but I have heard several times that it's strong suites are not light air or beating and that would be my main concern if I were in the market for that sort of boat.>> I have spent considerable time sailing on a friend's Flicka this past year, and I have to say that the urban lore regarding light air performance and pointing ability is at least somewhat exaggerated. As with most displacement/full keel boats I have sailed, you need to carry sufficient canvas for the conditions. As with Westsail 32's, the Flicka does not like to be undercanvased, and will protest by wallowing. A 100% working jib in 5 knots of wind is not going to cut it. Most Flicka sailors have a good size genoa and/or a drifter. While the Flicka does not point as well as many lightweight fin keelers, I was pleasantly surprised on what we could do with right sails and trim. The one place the Flicka suffers a bit is in trying to punch into steep chop while on a beat or close reach. Reports that Flickas will not tack or are generally dogs are gross exaggerations. Like any full keel boat, you need to have some way on before tacking, and you don't want to pull the jib across prematurely. <<One good thing about them is that there are enough of them around that the price is often very reasonable.>> There are indeed quite a few out there. I have, however, only seen a couple of boats that I would consider bargains in my16 years of looking. It is true that there are some Flickas out there for very little money, but they are generally boats with problems (poorly done owner-finished boats, bad blister problems and/or hydrolysis, deck rot, etc.). In general, you can expect to pay anywhere between $15,000 - $23,000 for older Flickas with outboards, plastic ports, aluminum toe rails, etc. Outboard boats with bronze ports, teak toe rail, and enclosed head push prices can bring as much as $28,000. Diesel versions (usually a Yanmar YSM 8 in older boats, and Yanmar 1GM in later) are rarely found under $20,000, and they go for up to $40,000 and beyond for later boats (at least one 1996 I know of went for more than $50,000. NADA valuations tend to be hopelessly low--especially for the earlier boats. BUC valuations tend to be more realistic--especially with the later boats. I would guess that I have looked at about 30-40 Flickas over the last 10 years. Almost every boat that was kept in the water year-round had some kind of blisters. If you are lucky, they are small and superficial gel coat blisters. If you are unlucky (like one owner of a 1985 I know of) you end up removing 30% or more of the hull and rebuilding it because the outer laminate layers are 100% hydrolyzed. Granted, boats with this condition are more the exception than the rule, but Pacific Seacraft did have some serious problems with resins--especially during the mid 1980's. They changed to a vinylester resin sometime during or after 1988. I have yet to see a 1989 or later Flicka with any blisters. Anyone considering a Flicka is advised to perform a thorough hull moisture test. <<For better performance, I'd put my money on the Falmouth Cutter and for even better performance (except maybe in a *major* blow?) the M 23.>> There is no doubt that the Falmouth is a faster and higher pointing boat than the Flicka. If you compare sa/d ratios, however, the Falmouth is still one very heavy boat. I would attribute some of the performance increase to the longer waterline, but I would say more important is the very fine entry typical of Lyle's designs. The M23 also carries its beam well aft. While I have not sailed one, I suspect that they are fast and weatherly. The trade off with such a fine entry is that there seems to be very little space forward. This was particularly true of the one M23 I have seen. Falmouth Cutters don't come cheap. Right now, I only know of two on the market. Both are asking around $45,000. They are somewhat hard to find given that there are only 35 or so out there (there may be a few more by now, as Sam Morse CO. is still making them). Last time I checked, a new boat was something over $100,000. I love the Falmouth, but for that kind of money, I would certainly look at the used Nor'Sea 27's. (they are, after all, nearly the same length over all, and displace nearly the same). One thing I am not fond of on the Falmouth is the widow-maker bowsprit. I know Larry Pardey would scoff, but I personally don't feel comfortable out on a 4" x 4" beam in even the best of conditions. <<Light air performance is one of my Thistle's strongest points: it'll still be moving long after nearly every other boat on the water has given up and fired up the iron jib.>> Accommodations are a bit limited though! :) Scott Grometer, M15 #478 'bebe'