John Tyner might enlighten us . . . What I don't understand about those early 17's, though . . . Could that balanced rudder be raised? If so, how? How did it clear the skeg? If not, then the centerboard was only for trailering convenience, "back in the day"? Jerry never expected anyone to sail in thin water? ----- Original Message ----- From: "William B. Riker" <wriker@mindspring.com> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 9:06 PM Subject: 12-28 fasteners? Tom, John Harris (Chesapeake Light Craft) built a balanced rudder, like you describe, for Chimpanzee. He says it does improve the helm balance. Bill Riker M15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Smith, Tom Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 7:38 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: 12-28 fasteners? You are correct Tod, our rudders differ. The leading edge of my rudder (and Larry Yake's too, but the way, and probably others of our vintage up to maybe late '76) drops straight down the transom, like yours, but rather than continuing to drop straight, at just below the waterline it angles 90 degrees forward and extends 4 or 5 inches under the skeg (so the rudder looks like an "L"). The width (fore/aft) of the rudder above the waterline is 7 or 8 inches, but it widens to approximately 12 or a bit more the remaining 30 inches or so to the bottom. Probably clear as mud. The original idea as Jerry has explained it to me was to help balance the helm. I'm sure it made fabricating the rudder more complicated too. Anyway, I think he went to the straight rudder after the mid-70s boats and never looked back... Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed -----Original Message----- From: htmills@bright.net [mailto:htmills@bright.net] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:07 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: 12-28 fasteners? I read your post and re-read it. And re-read it. Your rudder is different than Busca's it would seem. Busca's rudder slides up and down. Consequently it can't cut forward under the skeg.... http://www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaTransom.JPG Am I missing something? The only gap I had to watch was to keep the rudder gudgeon centerline far enough forward that the transom gudgeon would clear the rudder when hard-over. Tod -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Smith, Tom Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:15 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: 12-28 fasteners? Hey Jerry. I'm doing some work on the M17 rudder. Can you remember what the gap between where the rudder cuts forward under the skeg and the skeg itself should measure? I can see where the wider that gap is, the more turbulance will be created. This rudder's been damaged and I don't know how everything was set up originally, but it's about two inches right now... Thanks. t Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed

When the rudder is in the raised position (looking at an elevation view - ie, a side view), the elevation of the bottom of the rudder is still about six inches below the keel, and WAY below the skeg. Therefore, with the rudder raised, there is room on the lower part of the rudder below the skeg to extend the leading edge forward . My M-17 was built in 2000, and the skeg extends just a few inches below the hull. I appreciate the subject being brought up, as it has prompted me to consider and additional alteration to my rudder. I shortened it so that when it is in the raised position the bottom of the rudder is at the same elevation (maybe an inch higher) as the keel. Now I may be able to add to the leading edge and regain the surface area that I lost in shortening it, and regain the lost windward performance, while at the same time reducing weather helm. Clarence Andrews M-17 Carpe Ventum #604 Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:45 PM Subject: M_Boats: Chimpanzee . . .

John Tyner might enlighten us . . .

What I don't understand about those early 17's, though . . . Could that

balanced rudder be raised? If so,

how? How did it clear the skeg? If not, then the centerboard was only for trailering convenience, "back in the day"? Jerry never expected anyone to sail in thin water?

----- Original Message ----- From: "William B. Riker" <wriker@mindspring.com> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 9:06 PM Subject: 12-28 fasteners?

Tom,

John Harris (Chesapeake Light Craft) built a balanced rudder, like you describe, for Chimpanzee. He says it does improve the helm balance.

Bill Riker M15 #184 Storm Petrel

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com

[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+wriker=mindspring.com@mailman.xmission.com]

On Behalf Of Smith, Tom Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 7:38 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: 12-28 fasteners?

You are correct Tod, our rudders differ.

The leading edge of my rudder (and Larry Yake's too, but the way, and probably others of our vintage up to maybe late '76) drops straight down the transom, like yours, but rather than continuing to drop straight, at just below the waterline it angles 90 degrees forward and extends 4 or 5 inches under the skeg (so the rudder looks like an "L"). The width (fore/aft) of the rudder above the waterline is 7 or 8 inches, but it widens to approximately 12 or a bit more the remaining 30 inches or so to the bottom. Probably clear as mud.

The original idea as Jerry has explained it to me was to help balance the helm. I'm sure it made fabricating the rudder more complicated too. Anyway, I think he went to the straight rudder after the mid-70s boats and never looked back...

Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed

-----Original Message----- From: htmills@bright.net [mailto:htmills@bright.net] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:07 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: 12-28 fasteners?

I read your post and re-read it. And re-read it. Your rudder is different than Busca's it would seem.

Busca's rudder slides up and down. Consequently it can't cut forward under the skeg....

http://www.bright.net/~htmills/BuscaTransom.JPG

Am I missing something? The only gap I had to watch was to keep the rudder gudgeon centerline far enough forward that the transom gudgeon would clear the rudder when hard-over.

Tod

-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+htmills=bright.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Smith, Tom Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:15 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: 12-28 fasteners?

Hey Jerry. I'm doing some work on the M17 rudder. Can you remember what the gap between where the rudder cuts forward under the skeg and the skeg itself should measure? I can see where the wider that gap is, the more turbulance will be created. This rudder's been damaged and I don't know how everything was set up originally, but it's about two inches right now... Thanks. t

Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle Sandpoint, Idaho M15-345, Chukar M17-064, Unnamed

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Well, my degree (the first one, anyway) reads aerospace engineering, but generally I just refer to myself as a "government flunky". And all my flying is done in the back seats with the other cattle. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+tynerjohn=erols.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+tynerjohn=erols.com@mailman.xmission.co m]On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 10:19 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Chimpanzee . . . And you're also designing a kick-up, aren't you, Clarence? --Craig p.s., Clarence, aren't you also a pilot, as well as a sailor? I'd be interested to know how many list contributors are pilots, i.e., John Tyner calls himself an "aero engineer" . . . Both sailing and flying use craft powered by the Bernoulli effect, eh? ----- Original Message ----- From: "n9ca" <n9ca@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: Chimpanzee . . . When the rudder is in the raised position (looking at an elevation view - ie, a side view), the elevation of the bottom of the rudder is still about six inches below the keel, and WAY below the skeg. Therefore, with the rudder raised, there is room on the lower part of the rudder below the skeg to extend the leading edge forward . My M-17 was built in 2000, and the skeg extends just a few inches below the hull. I appreciate the subject being brought up, as it has prompted me to consider and additional alteration to my rudder. I shortened it so that when it is in the raised position the bottom of the rudder is at the same elevation (maybe an inch higher) as the keel. Now I may be able to add to the leading edge and regain the surface area that I lost in shortening it, and regain the lost windward performance, while at the same time reducing weather helm. Clarence Andrews M-17 Carpe Ventum #604 Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:45 PM Subject: Chimpanzee . . . John Tyner might enlighten us . . . What I don't understand about those early 17's, though . . . Could that balanced rudder be raised? If so, how? How did it clear the skeg? If not, then the centerboard was only for trailering convenience, "back in the day"? Jerry never expected anyone to sail in thin water? _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

I'd very much like to make a Montgomery rendezvous, Clarence. I don't think it's going to happen in 2004, though. It would be excellent to meet and talk to "the experts" (those of you with extensive sailing experience, Montgomery and "misc.", and have shared so many innovative solutions and so much practical knowledge with the list) first-hand. Regarding, "----- Original Message ----- From: "n9ca" <n9ca@comcast.net> Craig, have you considered inner tubes?" I personally prefer the Conbert approach to staying afloat, so don't have any imminent plans to add positive floatation , but it seems like inner tubes could be workable, doesn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "n9ca" <n9ca@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:10 AM Subject: Chimpanzee . . . Craig, My energy at present is getting together the necessary stuff to rig a sheet to tiller self steering rig in time for a March 14 trip to Key West, and on to the Marquesas Keys, in the wake of Doug Kelch. Tod's web page was extremely helpful in gathering the data for the steering rig. I'd like to have a kick-up rudder before the CBC-2004. Speaking of which, why don't you make it this year. The Wolverine State isn't THAT far away! Yes Craig,I am a pilot, and fly a Cassutt Racer, which is a Formula One aircraft that I built from scratch, including carving the propeller. I have logged just under 300 hours in it. It's never too late to have a happy childhood. Clarence Andrews M-17 Carpe Ventum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 10:18 PM Subject: chimpanzee . . . And you're also designing a kick-up, aren't you, Clarence? --Craig p.s., Clarence, aren't you also a pilot, as well as a sailor? I'd be interested to know how many list contributors are pilots, i.e., John Tyner calls himself an "aero engineer" . . . Both sailing and flying use craft powered by the Bernoulli effect, eh?

Did you drop the centerboard, Gilbert? Does it move freely? --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "gilbert landin" <gilbert@mindgame.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: She floats!! I launched my new 1974 M-17, I was very apprehensive since our closest ramp, is just that, a ramp with no sides and old dead submerged pilings. I was not sure how far to back up the trailer and used my 4-wheel drive 4-runner just in case. I was very surprised the boat slid right on in, this was not the plan though, I was going to climb on board and start the motor and attach the rudder, but this worked. Its amazing how no matter how you plan it, things end up differently. The mast only hung up twice, that was not bad for our first launch. Mounting the motor on the transom I found that I was very limited in my turn angles. because of the transom cutout, I only had about a 15 degree turn on each side. Didn't needed it.I was lucky, I motored it to my backyard and will attach the sails tomorrow I wail no to be able to sleep tonight in anticipation. gilbert

Sounds like you got A LOT of boat in great condition, Clarence. That's great that you don't have centerboard problems. And, yeah, that pennant hole is a little like one of those novelty corsages . . . :-) You'll find threads in the archives on how to keep the mini-geysers from soaking your cabin sole . . . I'm looking forward to reading about your first sail! --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilbert Landin" <gilbert@mindgame.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 10:18 AM Subject: She floats!! Sure did, I released it slowly and felt for any sticking, there was none. I felt it as it hit the stop pin, no problem. I was suprised at how heavy it is. I had to use the winch to retract it , funny thing I was looking to hard at the pennant line and got a squirt of water in the face. Once under sail, if you are single-handing, I can see how you would have to wait before retracting it. Or rig a tiller tamer. It is easier to work on it on the dock, than on the trailer, except for the tenderness. Needless to say my wife did not get a single thing from me all day, and when I finally went in I found myself still rocking, while I watched the news. There was no water coming into the boat that was a relief. I was especially concerned with the knotmeter fitting which is thru hull. I spent most of the day working on the wiring and trying to figure why the depth gauge would not work. While at the hardware I found some liquid electrical tape, man that stuff worked great, you brush it on your electrical splices and it insulates and waterproofs, I will go to town on the trailer tomorrow with it. I have not yet raised the sails, since it was blowing about 20 knots and the wind kept shifting. I was content on getting to know everything really well. I got A nice surprise when I installed the depth gauge, it is a Lowrance X-48 with a nice big display and enough features to make any fishing boat envious. It not only does depth but finds fish and tracks the bottom pretty cool. So I have a nice array of electronics depth, speed, temperature, and I will be getting a mount for my Handspring Visor GPS, I will take along the MP3 and Camara module. Hey and maybe my laptop since I have a wireless hotspot at the house. Who needs to work Ill just there.............. sorry I got carried away gilbert -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+gilbert=mindgame.com@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+gilbert=mindgame.com@mailman.xmission.c om]On Behalf Of Honshells Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 10:49 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: She floats!! Did you drop the centerboard, Gilbert? Does it move freely? --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "gilbert landin" <gilbert@mindgame.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: She floats!! I launched my new 1974 M-17, I was very apprehensive since our closest ramp, is just that, a ramp with no sides and old dead submerged pilings. I was not sure how far to back up the trailer and used my 4-wheel drive 4-runner just in case. I was very surprised the boat slid right on in, this was not the plan though, I was going to climb on board and start the motor and attach the rudder, but this worked. Its amazing how no matter how you plan it, things end up differently. The mast only hung up twice, that was not bad for our first launch. Mounting the motor on the transom I found that I was very limited in my turn angles. because of the transom cutout, I only had about a 15 degree turn on each side. Didn't needed it.I was lucky, I motored it to my backyard and will attach the sails tomorrow I wail no to be able to sleep tonight in anticipation. gilbert