“Heavy” weather sail changes on an M-15
Soooo, we got our butts kicked today on Puget Sound. Coming from a Flicka, I’m still learning to sail these little boats, and finding out their capabilities. I know, I’ve read all the accounts, heard all the stories, but we had two M-15s out singlehanding in steady 15 to maybe 20 knot gusts, with reefed mains and working jibs, and close hauled were on the verge of being overpowered to the point of losing control. I know all the tricks about keeping the sails flat, etc. but I tell you, I was out of my comfort zone. So my question is, how do you change out to a smaller headsail in 2’ to 3’ waves when you are overpowered? I have a downhaul and got the jib down no problem, but I wasn’t about to let go of the tiller and go forward in that, no way. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Don’t tell me to start the day with a smaller jib, it was forecast for 5 to 10 and went from ghosting to overpowered in less than a minute. I did learn, despite everyone saying to the contrary, that at least MY boat sails just fine with only a reefed main and no jib. I wish I had two reefs though, it would have been much more comfortable today. M-15 sailors with experience, share your advice! I’ll pop this on the Facebook group too. Thank you, Rusty M-15 “Vanilla”
I'm no expert and have yet to experience waves that big, but here's what I've done so far for challenging conditions, so take my advice with lots of salt. I've got 2 reefs in the mainsail. I have a jib with a reef in it. I have an autotiller. I have a big drift sock. If I had to do it, I'd drop the sails, put out the drift sock, set the tiller so as to not take the waves head on andvery carefully go up and on my stomach, put in the lower reef for the head sail. Easy to say... On Sunday, June 2, 2019, 1:39:05 AM PDT, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: Soooo, we got our butts kicked today on Puget Sound. Coming from a Flicka, I’m still learning to sail these little boats, and finding out their capabilities. I know, I’ve read all the accounts, heard all the stories, but we had two M-15s out singlehanding in steady 15 to maybe 20 knot gusts, with reefed mains and working jibs, and close hauled were on the verge of being overpowered to the point of losing control. I know all the tricks about keeping the sails flat, etc. but I tell you, I was out of my comfort zone. So my question is, how do you change out to a smaller headsail in 2’ to 3’ waves when you are overpowered? I have a downhaul and got the jib down no problem, but I wasn’t about to let go of the tiller and go forward in that, no way. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Don’t tell me to start the day with a smaller jib, it was forecast for 5 to 10 and went from ghosting to overpowered in less than a minute. I did learn, despite everyone saying to the contrary, that at least MY boat sails just fine with only a reefed main and no jib. I wish I had two reefs though, it would have been much more comfortable today. M-15 sailors with experience, share your advice! I’ll pop this on the Facebook group too. Thank you, Rusty M-15 “Vanilla”
"O God, Thy sea is so great and my boat is so small." Breton sailor's prayer Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 2, 2019, at 6:47 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I'm no expert and have yet to experience waves that big, but here's what I've done so far for challenging conditions, so take my advice with lots of salt.
I've got 2 reefs in the mainsail. I have a jib with a reef in it. I have an autotiller. I have a big drift sock. If I had to do it, I'd drop the sails, put out the drift sock, set the tiller so as to not take the waves head on andvery carefully go up and on my stomach, put in the lower reef for the head sail.
Easy to say...
On Sunday, June 2, 2019, 1:39:05 AM PDT, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Soooo, we got our butts kicked today on Puget Sound. Coming from a Flicka, I’m still learning to sail these little boats, and finding out their capabilities. I know, I’ve read all the accounts, heard all the stories, but we had two M-15s out singlehanding in steady 15 to maybe 20 knot gusts, with reefed mains and working jibs, and close hauled were on the verge of being overpowered to the point of losing control. I know all the tricks about keeping the sails flat, etc. but I tell you, I was out of my comfort zone. So my question is, how do you change out to a smaller headsail in 2’ to 3’ waves when you are overpowered? I have a downhaul and got the jib down no problem, but I wasn’t about to let go of the tiller and go forward in that, no way. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Don’t tell me to start the day with a smaller jib, it was forecast for 5 to 10 and went from ghosting to overpowered in less than a minute. I did learn, despite everyone saying to the contrary, that at least MY boat sails just fine with only a reefed main and no jib. I wish I had two reefs though, it would have been much more comfortable today. M-15 sailors with experience, share your advice! I’ll pop this on the Facebook group too.
Thank you,
Rusty M-15 “Vanilla”
Hi Rusty, We all like these little boats, they are well built and pretty seaworthy for their size, but they are still little boats, with tiny decks and a correspondingly small displacement, which can make changing sails on a tiny pitching deck pretty challenging. I love my M17, and having sailed the PNW most of my adult life, I have no worries about cruising any where in the PNW with it. However that said, the moment I got it for all the reasons mentioned above I installed a furling jib to be prepared as best as possible for the conditions you just experienced. I also use a 109 jib rather than a 135 or 150. Yup I am under powered in lighter airs but, but you only have to be out in middle of the Georgia strait when the wind has piped up beyond the forecast and you are in a sea state of 2-3ft or even a little more, to appreciate the safety and performance of a furled 109 from the comfort and safety of the cockpit. I also have 3 reefs in my main. For me, safely sailing the PNW in an Monty, particularly single handed, really starts with installing a furling jib and at least 2 reefs in the main. Just my opinion... Keith *Keith R. Martin* *Vancouver/Burnaby B.C.* *Serenity M17, #353* *http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105 <http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105>* . *Keith R. Martin* *Vancouver/Burnaby B.C.* *Serenity M17, #353* *http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105 <http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105>* On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 04:38, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Soooo, we got our butts kicked today on Puget Sound. Coming from a Flicka, I’m still learning to sail these little boats, and finding out their capabilities. I know, I’ve read all the accounts, heard all the stories, but we had two M-15s out singlehanding in steady 15 to maybe 20 knot gusts, with reefed mains and working jibs, and close hauled were on the verge of being overpowered to the point of losing control. I know all the tricks about keeping the sails flat, etc. but I tell you, I was out of my comfort zone. So my question is, how do you change out to a smaller headsail in 2’ to 3’ waves when you are overpowered? I have a downhaul and got the jib down no problem, but I wasn’t about to let go of the tiller and go forward in that, no way. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Don’t tell me to start the day with a smaller jib, it was forecast for 5 to 10 and went from ghosting to overpowered in less than a minute. I did learn, despite everyone saying to the contrary, that at least MY boat sails just fine with only a reefed main and no jib. I wish I had two reefs though, it would have been much more comfortable today. M-15 sailors with experience, share your advice! I’ll pop this on the Facebook group too.
Thank you,
Rusty M-15 “Vanilla”
Ditto Keith comments, if single-handing (and even if not - I've done jib changes on bigger boats bouncing around on ocean waves and it can still be challenging even with more deck space and a big heavy boat). I got a furling/reefing jib setup for my M17 last year. My main has three reefs, though the first is a small one that some knowledgeable person here identified as probably being a "flattening" reef (it takes a relatively small bite out of sail area, but it does flatten the remaining sail area compared to no reef). The windage and somewhat less performance of the furling rig and reefed jib is for my situation more than compensated for by the fact that I can adjust the jib for better performance, on average, than if I had to douse a too-big fixed jib and sail on main alone, or, spend a bunch of my time underpowered by starting with a small jib in case of rising wind. Always some trade-offs...we each have to choose our own. FWIW another benefit of furling jib setup, if you're cruising, is more space inside the boat (and less need to constantly move stuff around when using the inside of the boat), since you're not having to store one or more jibs somewhere. cheers, John On 6/2/19 6:56 AM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Hi Rusty,
We all like these little boats, they are well built and pretty seaworthy for their size, but they are still little boats, with tiny decks and a correspondingly small displacement, which can make changing sails on a tiny pitching deck pretty challenging.
I love my M17, and having sailed the PNW most of my adult life, I have no worries about cruising any where in the PNW with it. However that said, the moment I got it for all the reasons mentioned above I installed a furling jib to be prepared as best as possible for the conditions you just experienced. I also use a 109 jib rather than a 135 or 150.
Yup I am under powered in lighter airs but, but you only have to be out in middle of the Georgia strait when the wind has piped up beyond the forecast and you are in a sea state of 2-3ft or even a little more, to appreciate the safety and performance of a furled 109 from the comfort and safety of the cockpit. I also have 3 reefs in my main.
For me, safely sailing the PNW in an Monty, particularly single handed, really starts with installing a furling jib and at least 2 reefs in the main.
Just my opinion...
Keith
*Keith R. Martin*
*Vancouver/Burnaby B.C.*
*Serenity M17, #353* *http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105 <http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105>* .
*Keith R. Martin*
*Vancouver/Burnaby B.C.*
*Serenity M17, #353* *http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105 <http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=105>*
On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 at 04:38, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Soooo, we got our butts kicked today on Puget Sound. Coming from a Flicka, I’m still learning to sail these little boats, and finding out their capabilities. I know, I’ve read all the accounts, heard all the stories, but we had two M-15s out singlehanding in steady 15 to maybe 20 knot gusts, with reefed mains and working jibs, and close hauled were on the verge of being overpowered to the point of losing control. I know all the tricks about keeping the sails flat, etc. but I tell you, I was out of my comfort zone. So my question is, how do you change out to a smaller headsail in 2’ to 3’ waves when you are overpowered? I have a downhaul and got the jib down no problem, but I wasn’t about to let go of the tiller and go forward in that, no way. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Don’t tell me to start the day with a smaller jib, it was forecast for 5 to 10 and went from ghosting to overpowered in less than a minute. I did learn, despite everyone saying to the contrary, that at least MY boat sails just fine with only a reefed main and no jib. I wish I had two reefs though, it would have been much more comfortable today. M-15 sailors with experience, share your advice! I’ll pop this on the Facebook group too.
Thank you,
Rusty M-15 “Vanilla”
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Rusty. You need a second reef. That is the best way to depower the M15 without going forward. You would have been very comfortable with a double reef and the standard jib (Jerry designated a 128% as a working jib). All smaller headsails are 'heavy weather'. The other thing is you don't want to fully luff the main in the gusts. The mast will tip forward, as the jib is still powered up and the boat has no backstay, and the now baggy jib will cause _more_ heeling. Best to let the main out so no more than about 1/3 is starting to luff and pointing up a bit - essentially scandalizing through the gusts. The main must keep some power. This keeps sheet and leech tension. These are the 'backstay' that keeps the mast from rocking forward causing the jib to bag. The big pressure difference right now between offshore and eastern Washington is making for some strong evening winds ythat arrive at unpredictable times. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Sun, Jun 2, 2019, 1:39 AM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Soooo, we got our butts kicked today on Puget Sound. Coming from a Flicka, I’m still learning to sail these little boats, and finding out their capabilities. I know, I’ve read all the accounts, heard all the stories, but we had two M-15s out singlehanding in steady 15 to maybe 20 knot gusts, with reefed mains and working jibs, and close hauled were on the verge of being overpowered to the point of losing control. I know all the tricks about keeping the sails flat, etc. but I tell you, I was out of my comfort zone. So my question is, how do you change out to a smaller headsail in 2’ to 3’ waves when you are overpowered? I have a downhaul and got the jib down no problem, but I wasn’t about to let go of the tiller and go forward in that, no way. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Don’t tell me to start the day with a smaller jib, it was forecast for 5 to 10 and went from ghosting to overpowered in less than a minute. I did learn, despite everyone saying to the contrary, that at least MY boat sails just fine with only a reefed main and no jib. I wish I had two reefs though, it would have been much more comfortable today. M-15 sailors with experience, share your advice! I’ll pop this on the Facebook group too.
Thank you,
Rusty M-15 “Vanilla”
I've found that my M-15 rode pretty good in 20 knots hove-to with a double-reefed main and the tiller tied a little to leeward. Kept the mail flat and centered. In those conditions I always go forward with a tether and on my hands and knees. My 60% intermediate jib has its own set of sheets so I could get them set up before going forward. I tried a "storm sail" of much smaller size but with a double-reef in the main and a small jib, the center of effort was moved forward so there was a little lee helm. Additionally the tiny jib provided so little lift that I preferred to sail with the mail alone. At least that eliminated the lee-helm. On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 4:39 AM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Soooo, we got our butts kicked today on Puget Sound. Coming from a Flicka, I’m still learning to sail these little boats, and finding out their capabilities. I know, I’ve read all the accounts, heard all the stories, but we had two M-15s out singlehanding in steady 15 to maybe 20 knot gusts, with reefed mains and working jibs, and close hauled were on the verge of being overpowered to the point of losing control. I know all the tricks about keeping the sails flat, etc. but I tell you, I was out of my comfort zone. So my question is, how do you change out to a smaller headsail in 2’ to 3’ waves when you are overpowered? I have a downhaul and got the jib down no problem, but I wasn’t about to let go of the tiller and go forward in that, no way. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Don’t tell me to start the day with a smaller jib, it was forecast for 5 to 10 and went from ghosting to overpowered in less than a minute. I did learn, despite everyone saying to the contrary, that at least MY boat sails just fine with only a reefed main and no jib. I wish I had two reefs though, it would have been much more comfortable today. M-15 sailors with experience, share your advice! I’ll pop this on the Facebook group too.
Thank you,
Rusty M-15 “Vanilla”
I tried something similar a couple years ago with my M17, to heave to on main (before getting the furling jib). Sailed close to but not hard on the wind; sheet out just a bit so not getting full drive from main; set tiller a little leeward. Left to herself she would head up gently from the slight tiller angle; start to stall out and luff a bit; fall off naturally as she lost way; catch a bit of breeze in the main again, get enough way for the lee tiller to kick in again - repeat...repeat...repeat... So I was able to go forward and change the headsail while she scalloped gently forward and leeward. Wasn't 20 knots though, more like 12, so I had more mainsail deployed (just the flattening reef in). I imagine but can't say for sure that she'd do the same in higher wind with reefed main. cheers, John On 6/3/19 5:09 AM, Michael Murphy wrote:
I've found that my M-15 rode pretty good in 20 knots hove-to with a double-reefed main and the tiller tied a little to leeward. Kept the mail flat and centered. In those conditions I always go forward with a tether and on my hands and knees. My 60% intermediate jib has its own set of sheets so I could get them set up before going forward. I tried a "storm sail" of much smaller size but with a double-reef in the main and a small jib, the center of effort was moved forward so there was a little lee helm. Additionally the tiny jib provided so little lift that I preferred to sail with the mail alone. At least that eliminated the lee-helm.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 4:39 AM Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Soooo, we got our butts kicked today on Puget Sound. Coming from a Flicka, I’m still learning to sail these little boats, and finding out their capabilities. I know, I’ve read all the accounts, heard all the stories, but we had two M-15s out singlehanding in steady 15 to maybe 20 knot gusts, with reefed mains and working jibs, and close hauled were on the verge of being overpowered to the point of losing control. I know all the tricks about keeping the sails flat, etc. but I tell you, I was out of my comfort zone. So my question is, how do you change out to a smaller headsail in 2’ to 3’ waves when you are overpowered? I have a downhaul and got the jib down no problem, but I wasn’t about to let go of the tiller and go forward in that, no way. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Don’t tell me to start the day with a smaller jib, it was forecast for 5 to 10 and went from ghosting to overpowered in less than a minute. I did learn, despite everyone saying to the contrary, that at least MY boat sails just fine with only a reefed main and no jib. I wish I had two reefs though, it would have been much more comfortable today. M-15 sailors with experience, share your advice! I’ll pop this on the Facebook group too.
Thank you,
Rusty M-15 “Vanilla”
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (7)
-
Burton Lowry -
Dave Scobie -
John Schinnerer -
Keith R. Martin -
Lawrence Winiarski -
Michael Murphy -
Rusty Knorr