Need some "Sage" advice
Hi all, As some of you know, my wife Gail and I are involved in the development and eventual production of a new Jerry Montgomery design called the Sage 17. As all trailer sailors know, a shoal draft offers real advantage in launching and sailing shallow waters. Also, as most sailors know, going upwind efficiently is best with a deep keel. Some feel the bigger the stick, the deeper the keel. The keel-centerboard is a logical synthesis of the two needs and that’s why Jerry Montgomery and Lyle Hess chose this option. In fact, as I understand, the early Monty 17’s had a deep (3’7”) keel and the design was later adjusted because of the associated problems (launching & shallow water) with a trailerable deep keeled sailboat. I have followed problems with the pendant on some of the Monty forums as well as the current dilemma Sean Mulligan is facing with his pendant on Dauntless. Gail and I feel that the owner of any product should be able to perform, with the assistance of the factory, maintenance and repairs on their product. As Robbin suggested, early thinking of this problem would be beneficial. The Sage 17 is a keel-centerboard design with a fiberglass / lead centerboard of approx 150-250 lbs (pending Jerry's decision). While we’re in the development stage of the boat, we'd like to find and incorporate a “built in ” solution to the pendant / centerboard maintenance question, preferably without using a hoist. Jerry has come up with some well thought out ideas on centerboards, but we would also like to solicit any thoughts or solutions that trailer sailors, especially Monty sailors might have entertained. It would be nice to offer a new Sage 17 to any great ideas, but it is a bit beyond our means. We can offer a very nice high quality knife to anyone that comes up with any idea that we use. Pending Jerry’s approval, of course. Thanx in advance for your thinking time. Salngail M-15 “Justus” 1986 #361
The key is to have the attachment point of the pendant to the centerboard accessible from the bottom of the boat when the board is in its regular lowered position. I store my 15 on a boat lift, and easily walk under the boad to clean it and can access the centerboard (haven't looked for the pendant) as well when the boat is raised on the lift. Certainly, a 17 could also be easily raised on a boat lift - way easier than a crane or jacking it up off the trailer, and something that can usually be found on most shallow lakes. I lower my centerboard and clean it, with the bottom, every few weeks. If the board is on a pivot point, the full weight of the board does not have to be borne to take the weight off the pennant to disconnect, or to raise the board to reconnect. Adding more weight to the keel instead of the centerboard makes things a lot easier. Right now my boat is shrinkwrapped and looking at snow on her trailer. Mike m15 Anne Bonny ________________________________ From: "SALGLESSER@aol.com" <SALGLESSER@aol.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Fri, November 26, 2010 2:26:54 PM Subject: M_Boats: Need some "Sage" advice Hi all, As some of you know, my wife Gail and I are involved in the development and eventual production of a new Jerry Montgomery design called the Sage 17. As all trailer sailors know, a shoal draft offers real advantage in launching and sailing shallow waters. Also, as most sailors know, going upwind efficiently is best with a deep keel. Some feel the bigger the stick, the deeper the keel. The keel-centerboard is a logical synthesis of the two needs and that’s why Jerry Montgomery and Lyle Hess chose this option. In fact, as I understand, the early Monty 17’s had a deep (3’7”) keel and the design was later adjusted because of the associated problems (launching & shallow water) with a trailerable deep keeled sailboat. I have followed problems with the pendant on some of the Monty forums as well as the current dilemma Sean Mulligan is facing with his pendant on Dauntless. Gail and I feel that the owner of any product should be able to perform, with the assistance of the factory, maintenance and repairs on their product. As Robbin suggested, early thinking of this problem would be beneficial. The Sage 17 is a keel-centerboard design with a fiberglass / lead centerboard of approx 150-250 lbs (pending Jerry's decision). While we’re in the development stage of the boat, we'd like to find and incorporate a “built in ” solution to the pendant / centerboard maintenance question, preferably without using a hoist. Jerry has come up with some well thought out ideas on centerboards, but we would also like to solicit any thoughts or solutions that trailer sailors, especially Monty sailors might have entertained. It would be nice to offer a new Sage 17 to any great ideas, but it is a bit beyond our means. We can offer a very nice high quality knife to anyone that comes up with any idea that we use. Pending Jerry’s approval, of course. Thanx in advance for your thinking time. Salngail M-15 “Justus” 1986 #361 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hi Sal, my limited experience has been with a steel ~150lb center board from my former '75 M-17 and of course the current ~350lb board from the '79 M-23 that I am refurbing. Since both boards are steel they have both needed maintenance that my fibreglass encased M-15 board did not. I have had both blasted and coated etc. to keep them from rusting. As far as weight it would be a compromise like most things, I know the center board weight is different from the keel weight in that the lower center board provides a lower center of gravity which helps the moment arm formed with the main sail center of effort or whatever the term is. I don't have any bright ideas about the pendant access since your really need some room to work ideally if you are going to unscrew the shackle and change out the pendant. Not sure an access hatch would really do it, but it might. If it could be possible to "overextend" the board with the stop pin removed but pivot pin still in that would simplify replacing the pendant and or shackle somewhat. Seems like that might be possible to design in. I do know that the 150lb board was much more user friendly in that it could be handled by one or two adults without much problem vs the 350lb which requires hydrolic assist and lots of planning to move and work with it. So if possible I would stay toward the 150lb end of the scale. Cheers Robbin On 11/26/2010 2:26 PM, SALGLESSER@aol.com wrote:
Hi all, As some of you know, my wife Gail and I are involved in the development and eventual production of a new Jerry Montgomery design called the Sage 17. As all trailer sailors know, a shoal draft offers real advantage in launching and sailing shallow waters. Also, as most sailors know, going upwind efficiently is best with a deep keel. Some feel the bigger the stick, the deeper the keel. The keel-centerboard is a logical synthesis of the two needs and that’s why Jerry Montgomery and Lyle Hess chose this option. In fact, as I understand, the early Monty 17’s had a deep (3’7”) keel and the design was later adjusted because of the associated problems (launching& shallow water) with a trailerable deep keeled sailboat. I have followed problems with the pendant on some of the Monty forums as well as the current dilemma Sean Mulligan is facing with his pendant on Dauntless. Gail and I feel that the owner of any product should be able to perform, with the assistance of the factory, maintenance and repairs on their product. As Robbin suggested, early thinking of this problem would be beneficial. The Sage 17 is a keel-centerboard design with a fiberglass / lead centerboard of approx 150-250 lbs (pending Jerry's decision). While we’re in the development stage of the boat, we'd like to find and incorporate a “built in ” solution to the pendant / centerboard maintenance question, preferably without using a hoist. Jerry has come up with some well thought out ideas on centerboards, but we would also like to solicit any thoughts or solutions that trailer sailors, especially Monty sailors might have entertained. It would be nice to offer a new Sage 17 to any great ideas, but it is a bit beyond our means. We can offer a very nice high quality knife to anyone that comes up with any idea that we use. Pending Jerry’s approval, of course. Thanx in advance for your thinking time. Salngail M-15 “Justus” 1986 #361 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I just repaired 2 old style M-17 with iron boards. Just referring to the lift pennant now .We found a special shackle ,slightly long with a hole at the top of the strap. We simply attached the shackle to the board put the pendent through the hole in the shackle slipped on a nylon washer to help spread the load between the pennant and the shackle and tied a figure 8 stop knot . the beauty of this system is that the knot is all trapped under the shackle and shortens the need for room between the top of the centerboard and the glass trunk, (at the hole) , Also the top of the shackle acts a a tough pendent stop instead of jamming and wearing out the old style bowline knot. Sean, we can talk off line about ideas on a easy fix on the 23, Mine was a fixed keel so I'm foggy on the pendent/access issue,but I'd wager we can do an on trailer fix. Sal, I'll stare at the config. on the prototype when it's back in flat Sac. I'm in full agreement that all systems should be owner maintainable W/O much BS involved. The repairs above were done with one of our newest M-17 paternal brothers Bill Genevro who has a rather long list of engineering successes with mast design and construction, and now aviation related items among other background in product and process adventures. Welcome aboard Bill. Stan --- On Fri, 11/26/10, robbin roddewig <robbin.roddewig@verizon.net> wrote: From: robbin roddewig <robbin.roddewig@verizon.net> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Need some "Sage" advice To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 2:03 PM Hi Sal, my limited experience has been with a steel ~150lb center board from my former '75 M-17 and of course the current ~350lb board from the '79 M-23 that I am refurbing. Since both boards are steel they have both needed maintenance that my fibreglass encased M-15 board did not. I have had both blasted and coated etc. to keep them from rusting. As far as weight it would be a compromise like most things, I know the center board weight is different from the keel weight in that the lower center board provides a lower center of gravity which helps the moment arm formed with the main sail center of effort or whatever the term is. I don't have any bright ideas about the pendant access since your really need some room to work ideally if you are going to unscrew the shackle and change out the pendant. Not sure an access hatch would really do it, but it might. If it could be possible to "overextend" the board with the stop pin removed but pivot pin still in that would simplify replacing the pendant and or shackle somewhat. Seems like that might be possible to design in. I do know that the 150lb board was much more user friendly in that it could be handled by one or two adults without much problem vs the 350lb which requires hydrolic assist and lots of planning to move and work with it. So if possible I would stay toward the 150lb end of the scale. Cheers Robbin On 11/26/2010 2:26 PM, SALGLESSER@aol.com wrote:
Hi all, As some of you know, my wife Gail and I are involved in the development and eventual production of a new Jerry Montgomery design called the Sage 17. As all trailer sailors know, a shoal draft offers real advantage in launching and sailing shallow waters. Also, as most sailors know, going upwind efficiently is best with a deep keel. Some feel the bigger the stick, the deeper the keel. The keel-centerboard is a logical synthesis of the two needs and that’s why Jerry Montgomery and Lyle Hess chose this option. In fact, as I understand, the early Monty 17’s had a deep (3’7”) keel and the design was later adjusted because of the associated problems (launching& shallow water) with a trailerable deep keeled sailboat. I have followed problems with the pendant on some of the Monty forums as well as the current dilemma Sean Mulligan is facing with his pendant on Dauntless. Gail and I feel that the owner of any product should be able to perform, with the assistance of the factory, maintenance and repairs on their product. As Robbin suggested, early thinking of this problem would be beneficial. The Sage 17 is a keel-centerboard design with a fiberglass / lead centerboard of approx 150-250 lbs (pending Jerry's decision). While we’re in the development stage of the boat, we'd like to find and incorporate a “built in ” solution to the pendant / centerboard maintenance question, preferably without using a hoist. Jerry has come up with some well thought out ideas on centerboards, but we would also like to solicit any thoughts or solutions that trailer sailors, especially Monty sailors might have entertained. It would be nice to offer a new Sage 17 to any great ideas, but it is a bit beyond our means. We can offer a very nice high quality knife to anyone that comes up with any idea that we use. Pending Jerry’s approval, of course. Thanx in advance for your thinking time. Salngail M-15 “Justus” 1986 #361 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Several years ago, I owned a keel/CB Slipper 17 which had the centerboard pennant run to the bridge deck through a heavy PVC pipe which was glassed into the bottom of the boat. When my pennant broke, I replaced the PVC tube with another one with a threaded fitting at the bottom which I glassed into the hull. I then put a long shackle through the hole in the board (I had to remove the board to do this) so the shackle was sticking out of the threaded fitting. I attached the new SS penant to the schackle with an eye with press fittings. I was then able to run the wire through the new tube which had a threaded end to fit the fitting in the hull and a flange to attach to the underside of the bridge deck. The next time I had to replace the pennant it took about 30 minutes to unscrew the tube and crimp on a new wire. I sailed that boat for 17 years until I moved to Germany and sold her. BTW, I currently own one of those origonal fin keel M17s until Monday when the new owner will pick up Griselda. You can see pictures of the boat on the Sailing Texas website Sailboat Photo Gallery and the new owner is going to try to make Havasu with her. It will still be in the active ads until it is paid for and picked up on Monday. I love the boat but just don't have deep enough water to moor her at my dock or to cross the bar between my cove and the river to access the main part of Lake Livingston. Besides, I like the Seaward Fox I replaced her with as well as I did the Slipper 17 (same hull) I sailed for years. The 20 inch deep wing keel is not nearly as good to windward as the Monty but all boats are a compromise. Whitebeard
From: SALGLESSER@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 14:26:54 -0500 To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Need some "Sage" advice
Hi all, As some of you know, my wife Gail and I are involved in the development and eventual production of a new Jerry Montgomery design called the Sage 17. As all trailer sailors know, a shoal draft offers real advantage in launching and sailing shallow waters. Also, as most sailors know, going upwind efficiently is best with a deep keel. Some feel the bigger the stick, the deeper the keel. The keel-centerboard is a logical synthesis of the two needs and that’s why Jerry Montgomery and Lyle Hess chose this option. In fact, as I understand, the early Monty 17’s had a deep (3’7”) keel and the design was later adjusted because of the associated problems (launching & shallow water) with a trailerable deep keeled sailboat. I have followed problems with the pendant on some of the Monty forums as well as the current dilemma Sean Mulligan is facing with his pendant on Dauntless. Gail and I feel that the owner of any product should be able to perform, with the assistance of the factory, maintenance and repairs on their product. As Robbin suggested, early thinking of this problem would be beneficial. The Sage 17 is a keel-centerboard design with a fiberglass / lead centerboard of approx 150-250 lbs (pending Jerry's decision). While we’re in the development stage of the boat, we'd like to find and incorporate a “built in ” solution to the pendant / centerboard maintenance question, preferably without using a hoist. Jerry has come up with some well thought out ideas on centerboards, but we would also like to solicit any thoughts or solutions that trailer sailors, especially Monty sailors might have entertained. It would be nice to offer a new Sage 17 to any great ideas, but it is a bit beyond our means. We can offer a very nice high quality knife to anyone that comes up with any idea that we use. Pending Jerry’s approval, of course. Thanx in advance for your thinking time. Salngail M-15 “Justus” 1986 #361 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I had a M17 old style with the cast iron centerboard, a Catalina 22 with a centerboard and now have M15 # 128. I liked the Catalina's winch inside the cabin with a SS pendant. Never had to replace it. As far as the weight of the board goes I've always wondered if there could be a way to make the bottom foot or so of the board a lead casting attached to the fiberglass board. Would be easy to get to the lead without taking out the board and the lead might stand up to grounding better than fiberglass and, of course, all the weight is as deep as possible. I am eagerly looking forward to seeing the new boat. Ken W. from California -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of SALGLESSER@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 11:27 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Need some "Sage" advice Hi all, As some of you know, my wife Gail and I are involved in the development and eventual production of a new Jerry Montgomery design called the Sage 17. As all trailer sailors know, a shoal draft offers real advantage in launching and sailing shallow waters. Also, as most sailors know, going upwind efficiently is best with a deep keel. Some feel the bigger the stick, the deeper the keel. The keel-centerboard is a logical synthesis of the two needs and that's why Jerry Montgomery and Lyle Hess chose this option. In fact, as I understand, the early Monty 17's had a deep (3'7") keel and the design was later adjusted because of the associated problems (launching & shallow water) with a trailerable deep keeled sailboat. I have followed problems with the pendant on some of the Monty forums as well as the current dilemma Sean Mulligan is facing with his pendant on Dauntless. Gail and I feel that the owner of any product should be able to perform, with the assistance of the factory, maintenance and repairs on their product. As Robbin suggested, early thinking of this problem would be beneficial. The Sage 17 is a keel-centerboard design with a fiberglass / lead centerboard of approx 150-250 lbs (pending Jerry's decision). While we're in the development stage of the boat, we'd like to find and incorporate a "built in " solution to the pendant / centerboard maintenance question, preferably without using a hoist. Jerry has come up with some well thought out ideas on centerboards, but we would also like to solicit any thoughts or solutions that trailer sailors, especially Monty sailors might have entertained. It would be nice to offer a new Sage 17 to any great ideas, but it is a bit beyond our means. We can offer a very nice high quality knife to anyone that comes up with any idea that we use. Pending Jerry's approval, of course. Thanx in advance for your thinking time. Salngail M-15 "Justus" 1986 #361 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
participants (6)
-
Ken Wheeler -
mrh219＠yahoo.com -
robbin roddewig -
Ronnie Keeler -
SALGLESSER＠aol.com -
Stan Susman