I need to remove the hinged mast step mounted on deck and the below deck aluminum compression post on my 1985 Montgomery 17. I want to recaulk the stainless mast step and inspect the inside mounted aluminum compression post. Both are original installations. What is the easiest, best way to accomplish this. Best regards, Kirby Stross 1985 Montgomery 17
Mine is older so not a hinged step. But it is pretty straightforward, if it didn't change over about 10 years. - four (flat head) machine screws thru base of mast step, cabin top, and top casting for compression post, that gets the step off and the top casting as well. Four more where berth meets bottom of compression post makes the casting above and below the berth removable. Use butyl tape for bedding the step. Not household caulk or 3M 4200 or 5200 and absolutely not silicone (someone at some point in past used silicone on multiple inappropriate places on my M17, "inappropriate places" meaning anywhere on a boat pretty much). This is an excellent reference for butyl tape bedding (including some other good tips and tricks for bedding in general, holes in decks, etc.): https://marinehowto.com/bed-it-tape/ cheers, John On 2/1/20 5:45 PM, Kirby Stross wrote:
I need to remove the hinged mast step mounted on deck and the below deck aluminum compression post on my 1985 Montgomery 17. I want to recaulk the stainless mast step and inspect the inside mounted aluminum compression post. Both are original installations.
What is the easiest, best way to accomplish this.
Best regards,
Kirby Stross 1985 Montgomery 17
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Oh yeah, and mine has some smaller screws thru the top casting for the compression post into the cabin top. They don't penetrate the cabin top. Presumably just to hold the casting in place...? I would take a picture but the boat is tarped and stored for winter and not handy just outside the door. cheers, John On 2/1/20 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Mine is older so not a hinged step. But it is pretty straightforward, if it didn't change over about 10 years. - four (flat head) machine screws thru base of mast step, cabin top, and top casting for compression post, that gets the step off and the top casting as well. Four more where berth meets bottom of compression post makes the casting above and below the berth removable.
Use butyl tape for bedding the step. Not household caulk or 3M 4200 or 5200 and absolutely not silicone (someone at some point in past used silicone on multiple inappropriate places on my M17, "inappropriate places" meaning anywhere on a boat pretty much).
This is an excellent reference for butyl tape bedding (including some other good tips and tricks for bedding in general, holes in decks, etc.): https://marinehowto.com/bed-it-tape/
cheers, John
On 2/1/20 5:45 PM, Kirby Stross wrote:
I need to remove the hinged mast step mounted on deck and the below deck aluminum compression post on my 1985 Montgomery 17. I want to recaulk the stainless mast step and inspect the inside mounted aluminum compression post. Both are original installations.
What is the easiest, best way to accomplish this.
Best regards,
Kirby Stross 1985 Montgomery 17
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Kirby. I'm confused by your use of the term 'hinged'? Jerry didn't install hinged mast steps (aka tabernacles). What does yours look like? A picture would be great. The compression post is in two parts. The upper, longer is above the v-berth going to the cabin roof. The lower is bellow the v-berth. The post sections are just cast-off pieces of a mast. No real reason to remove the lower section unless something looks out of place. The upper section is held in place with L-brackets (at least it was on my M17). It is normal for the compression post not to be a snug fit when the mast isn't raised. The upper section needs to be removed so you can get at the nuts holding the tabernacle to the house. Remove the tabernacle and inspect the core for water damage. If all good rebed using 3M4000 or 4200 or Sikaflex 291. As already stated do NOT use silicone or 3M5200. If there is water in the core see this link for how to repair extensive repair example - https://www.google.com/amp/s/m17-375.com/2018/12/17/do-you-know-the-conditio... (The above link will also has pictures showing the standard M17 mast step.) If there is anything else I can do to assist let me know. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Sat, Feb 1, 2020, 6:46 PM Kirby Stross <capkirby0122@gmail.com> wrote:
I need to remove the hinged mast step mounted on deck and the below deck aluminum compression post on my 1985 Montgomery 17. I want to recaulk the stainless mast step and inspect the inside mounted aluminum compression post. Both are original installations.
What is the easiest, best way to accomplish this.
Best regards,
Kirby Stross 1985 Montgomery 17
Kind of a different topic but on the preventative side of this topic to try to avoid future repairs such as those all are describing. Something that I have discovered through my use of tarps, attempting to keep my boat nice and dry when it's out in the elements (in our soggy west coast weather) over the winter months is vapour barrier plastic. I have found that tarps don't really last that long (unless you buy a high end tarp probably.) For this winter I used vapour barrier plastic attached to 3/4' plumbing/conduit piping secured by zap straps layed across the mast like fish bones and overlaid with my old beat up tarps just to hold it all together during the frequent windy days of winter. My boat has stayed dry as bone all winter long. One day I would like to build a 'boat' port but for now, this works well. Jason Leckie Kuma M17 1980 Vancouver, BC/Point Roberts, WA On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 6:54 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Kirby.
I'm confused by your use of the term 'hinged'? Jerry didn't install hinged mast steps (aka tabernacles). What does yours look like? A picture would be great.
The compression post is in two parts. The upper, longer is above the v-berth going to the cabin roof. The lower is bellow the v-berth. The post sections are just cast-off pieces of a mast.
No real reason to remove the lower section unless something looks out of place.
The upper section is held in place with L-brackets (at least it was on my M17). It is normal for the compression post not to be a snug fit when the mast isn't raised.
The upper section needs to be removed so you can get at the nuts holding the tabernacle to the house.
Remove the tabernacle and inspect the core for water damage. If all good rebed using 3M4000 or 4200 or Sikaflex 291. As already stated do NOT use silicone or 3M5200.
If there is water in the core see this link for how to repair extensive repair example -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m17-375.com/2018/12/17/do-you-know-the-conditio...
(The above link will also has pictures showing the standard M17 mast step.)
If there is anything else I can do to assist let me know.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sat, Feb 1, 2020, 6:46 PM Kirby Stross <capkirby0122@gmail.com> wrote:
I need to remove the hinged mast step mounted on deck and the below deck aluminum compression post on my 1985 Montgomery 17. I want to recaulk the stainless mast step and inspect the inside mounted aluminum compression post. Both are original installations.
What is the easiest, best way to accomplish this.
Best regards,
Kirby Stross 1985 Montgomery 17
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re bed all through deck fittings. 3: ventilate. Despite the high quality Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks. Trapped moisture INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel. Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 7, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Jason Leckie <leckie.jas@gmail.com> wrote:
Kind of a different topic but on the preventative side of this topic to try to avoid future repairs such as those all are describing.
Something that I have discovered through my use of tarps, attempting to keep my boat nice and dry when it's out in the elements (in our soggy west coast weather) over the winter months is vapour barrier plastic. I have found that tarps don't really last that long (unless you buy a high end tarp probably.)
For this winter I used vapour barrier plastic attached to 3/4' plumbing/conduit piping secured by zap straps layed across the mast like fish bones and overlaid with my old beat up tarps just to hold it all together during the frequent windy days of winter. My boat has stayed dry as bone all winter long.
One day I would like to build a 'boat' port but for now, this works well.
Jason Leckie Kuma M17 1980 Vancouver, BC/Point Roberts, WA
On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 6:54 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Kirby.
I'm confused by your use of the term 'hinged'? Jerry didn't install hinged mast steps (aka tabernacles). What does yours look like? A picture would be great.
The compression post is in two parts. The upper, longer is above the v-berth going to the cabin roof. The lower is bellow the v-berth. The post sections are just cast-off pieces of a mast.
No real reason to remove the lower section unless something looks out of place.
The upper section is held in place with L-brackets (at least it was on my M17). It is normal for the compression post not to be a snug fit when the mast isn't raised.
The upper section needs to be removed so you can get at the nuts holding the tabernacle to the house.
Remove the tabernacle and inspect the core for water damage. If all good rebed using 3M4000 or 4200 or Sikaflex 291. As already stated do NOT use silicone or 3M5200.
If there is water in the core see this link for how to repair extensive repair example -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m17-375.com/2018/12/17/do-you-know-the-conditio...
(The above link will also has pictures showing the standard M17 mast step.)
If there is anything else I can do to assist let me know.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sat, Feb 1, 2020, 6:46 PM Kirby Stross <capkirby0122@gmail.com> wrote:
I need to remove the hinged mast step mounted on deck and the below deck aluminum compression post on my 1985 Montgomery 17. I want to recaulk the stainless mast step and inspect the inside mounted aluminum compression post. Both are original installations.
What is the easiest, best way to accomplish this.
Best regards,
Kirby Stross 1985 Montgomery 17
That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel.
Ed, respectfully, I think you are overstating things a bit. there are very very very few composite boats made using anything but polyester resin. what many current boat builders do is lay up the outer two/three layers of fiber BELOW the waterline using vinylester resin (almost as water resistant as epoxy and a less expensive). the rest of the layup below, and everything above is done using poly. there are exceptions - Sage Marine being one: 100% vinylester resin above, below and all layers including the gel coat. epoxy is rarely used in production boats. #1 reason is cost. Next is, until recently, there was no gel coat that would work reliably with epoxy (the new epoxy gel coats are REALLY expensive!). balsa/wood core that is above the waterline and NOT experiencing a leak from a crack in the fiberglass or a leaking fitting will not rot. there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to drive water into resin above the waterline caused by humidity and condensation. standing water in a filled to capacity very very deep bilge may cause issue over A VERY VERY VERY VERY long time. the issue with poly resin is external to the hull below the waterline - and this is mitigated using a barrier coat - and for a trailerable boat that isn't in the water for extended time wasteful of money (IMO). i don't like the idea of a boat using balsa below the waterline. modern wood boats are most commonly built with a covering of glass using epoxy (i own & live on one). most 'stitch and glue' craft use epoxy resin. polyester fiberglass boats are REALLY REALLY really really long lasting. they don't go away - this is the main reason, IMO, why there are so few new sailboats built these days as there is LOTS LOTS LOTS of 'old plastic' still around and available for cheap cheap cheap. there are also a lot of good condition old boats available for a lot less than a new build. the issue on old boats is leaking deck hardware. prior owners that didn't keep ahead of the condition of the bedding compound make simple fixes a BIG problem. AND then there owners using silicone to stop a boat leak ... there needs to be a rule that there is only one tube of silicone at any marine store and it is under lock and key and requires extensive questioning before it is sold to any boat owner!!! (ha ha) Mboats using silicone at only two locations - bedding the plastic portlights to the house (the silicone is used as a gasket that will not eat the window plastic. the portlight is held in place by the stainless fasteners.) in the marina my boat/home is currently moored she is one of the new boats - and she was completed in 2005. most of the boats present, especially the sailboats, are majority 70s and 80s built craft. maybe 10% of the boats present were built after 2000. balsa core is an excellent material when used _correctly_ (ex, my comment above about not being below the waterline). it is lighter and has better compression load abilities than any same weight synthetic material. foams are just as likely to experience delamination caused by a leak as balsa. foam, and similar, doesn't rot but once you get delamination the strength is gone. when buying a 'good old boat' check for evidence of leaks (easiest way is to see if there is weeping rust around a fitting (stainless rusts) and/or rust below deck on the nuts/bolts holding the fitting in place. next thump the deck and other areas where there is core (regardless if it is balsa, foam, etc) for delamition using the handle of a heavy screwdriver. after that if the boat uses steel ballast or has a steel keel/centerboard/daggerboard check their condition/fuction. for the rest of the boat lmost everything can be fixed and/or replaced and/or custom made (for those parts that are specific to a boat model and the manufacturer is long gone). I firmly believe people buying a used boat need to spend a bit more money to purchased a boat that is ready to sail condition v. one needing work - boat repairs take LOTS of money and LOTS of time (there is no such thing as a 'free boat'). if you like working on boats, and know how to do the work correctly (or are willing to learn), buy a craft needing work. if you like to sail buy a boat that is ready to sail. one final thought - just buy new sails ... if the sails are older than 10 years they need to be replaced. OK I'll step off my soapbox. Now everyone get their boat ready for the upcoming season! If you are near/in AZ come to the Wrinkleboat Messabout on Lake Pleasant AZ Feb. 15-17 2020. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 7:32 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re bed all through deck fittings. 3: ventilate. Despite the high quality Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks. Trapped moisture INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel. Ed
Very good, Dave. I agree with you 100%. Will I see you at Lake Pleasant? jerry ________________________________ From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 8:49 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel.
Ed, respectfully, I think you are overstating things a bit. there are very very very few composite boats made using anything but polyester resin. what many current boat builders do is lay up the outer two/three layers of fiber BELOW the waterline using vinylester resin (almost as water resistant as epoxy and a less expensive). the rest of the layup below, and everything above is done using poly. there are exceptions - Sage Marine being one: 100% vinylester resin above, below and all layers including the gel coat. epoxy is rarely used in production boats. #1 reason is cost. Next is, until recently, there was no gel coat that would work reliably with epoxy (the new epoxy gel coats are REALLY expensive!). balsa/wood core that is above the waterline and NOT experiencing a leak from a crack in the fiberglass or a leaking fitting will not rot. there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to drive water into resin above the waterline caused by humidity and condensation. standing water in a filled to capacity very very deep bilge may cause issue over A VERY VERY VERY VERY long time. the issue with poly resin is external to the hull below the waterline - and this is mitigated using a barrier coat - and for a trailerable boat that isn't in the water for extended time wasteful of money (IMO). i don't like the idea of a boat using balsa below the waterline. modern wood boats are most commonly built with a covering of glass using epoxy (i own & live on one). most 'stitch and glue' craft use epoxy resin. polyester fiberglass boats are REALLY REALLY really really long lasting. they don't go away - this is the main reason, IMO, why there are so few new sailboats built these days as there is LOTS LOTS LOTS of 'old plastic' still around and available for cheap cheap cheap. there are also a lot of good condition old boats available for a lot less than a new build. the issue on old boats is leaking deck hardware. prior owners that didn't keep ahead of the condition of the bedding compound make simple fixes a BIG problem. AND then there owners using silicone to stop a boat leak ... there needs to be a rule that there is only one tube of silicone at any marine store and it is under lock and key and requires extensive questioning before it is sold to any boat owner!!! (ha ha) Mboats using silicone at only two locations - bedding the plastic portlights to the house (the silicone is used as a gasket that will not eat the window plastic. the portlight is held in place by the stainless fasteners.) in the marina my boat/home is currently moored she is one of the new boats - and she was completed in 2005. most of the boats present, especially the sailboats, are majority 70s and 80s built craft. maybe 10% of the boats present were built after 2000. balsa core is an excellent material when used _correctly_ (ex, my comment above about not being below the waterline). it is lighter and has better compression load abilities than any same weight synthetic material. foams are just as likely to experience delamination caused by a leak as balsa. foam, and similar, doesn't rot but once you get delamination the strength is gone. when buying a 'good old boat' check for evidence of leaks (easiest way is to see if there is weeping rust around a fitting (stainless rusts) and/or rust below deck on the nuts/bolts holding the fitting in place. next thump the deck and other areas where there is core (regardless if it is balsa, foam, etc) for delamition using the handle of a heavy screwdriver. after that if the boat uses steel ballast or has a steel keel/centerboard/daggerboard check their condition/fuction. for the rest of the boat lmost everything can be fixed and/or replaced and/or custom made (for those parts that are specific to a boat model and the manufacturer is long gone). I firmly believe people buying a used boat need to spend a bit more money to purchased a boat that is ready to sail condition v. one needing work - boat repairs take LOTS of money and LOTS of time (there is no such thing as a 'free boat'). if you like working on boats, and know how to do the work correctly (or are willing to learn), buy a craft needing work. if you like to sail buy a boat that is ready to sail. one final thought - just buy new sails ... if the sails are older than 10 years they need to be replaced. OK I'll step off my soapbox. Now everyone get their boat ready for the upcoming season! If you are near/in AZ come to the Wrinkleboat Messabout on Lake Pleasant AZ Feb. 15-17 2020. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 7:32 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re bed all through deck fittings. 3: ventilate. Despite the high quality Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks. Trapped moisture INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel. Ed
Sorry to interrupt but is the Montgomery Knockabout this weekend at Lake Pleasant? Ian Black M-17 Seaweeble M-15 Judi B Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 From: jerry montgomery<mailto:jmbn1@outlook.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 10:45 AM To: Dave Scobie<mailto:scoobscobie@gmail.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats<mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin Very good, Dave. I agree with you 100%. Will I see you at Lake Pleasant? jerry ________________________________ From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 8:49 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel.
Ed, respectfully, I think you are overstating things a bit. there are very very very few composite boats made using anything but polyester resin. what many current boat builders do is lay up the outer two/three layers of fiber BELOW the waterline using vinylester resin (almost as water resistant as epoxy and a less expensive). the rest of the layup below, and everything above is done using poly. there are exceptions - Sage Marine being one: 100% vinylester resin above, below and all layers including the gel coat. epoxy is rarely used in production boats. #1 reason is cost. Next is, until recently, there was no gel coat that would work reliably with epoxy (the new epoxy gel coats are REALLY expensive!). balsa/wood core that is above the waterline and NOT experiencing a leak from a crack in the fiberglass or a leaking fitting will not rot. there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to drive water into resin above the waterline caused by humidity and condensation. standing water in a filled to capacity very very deep bilge may cause issue over A VERY VERY VERY VERY long time. the issue with poly resin is external to the hull below the waterline - and this is mitigated using a barrier coat - and for a trailerable boat that isn't in the water for extended time wasteful of money (IMO). i don't like the idea of a boat using balsa below the waterline. modern wood boats are most commonly built with a covering of glass using epoxy (i own & live on one). most 'stitch and glue' craft use epoxy resin. polyester fiberglass boats are REALLY REALLY really really long lasting. they don't go away - this is the main reason, IMO, why there are so few new sailboats built these days as there is LOTS LOTS LOTS of 'old plastic' still around and available for cheap cheap cheap. there are also a lot of good condition old boats available for a lot less than a new build. the issue on old boats is leaking deck hardware. prior owners that didn't keep ahead of the condition of the bedding compound make simple fixes a BIG problem. AND then there owners using silicone to stop a boat leak ... there needs to be a rule that there is only one tube of silicone at any marine store and it is under lock and key and requires extensive questioning before it is sold to any boat owner!!! (ha ha) Mboats using silicone at only two locations - bedding the plastic portlights to the house (the silicone is used as a gasket that will not eat the window plastic. the portlight is held in place by the stainless fasteners.) in the marina my boat/home is currently moored she is one of the new boats - and she was completed in 2005. most of the boats present, especially the sailboats, are majority 70s and 80s built craft. maybe 10% of the boats present were built after 2000. balsa core is an excellent material when used _correctly_ (ex, my comment above about not being below the waterline). it is lighter and has better compression load abilities than any same weight synthetic material. foams are just as likely to experience delamination caused by a leak as balsa. foam, and similar, doesn't rot but once you get delamination the strength is gone. when buying a 'good old boat' check for evidence of leaks (easiest way is to see if there is weeping rust around a fitting (stainless rusts) and/or rust below deck on the nuts/bolts holding the fitting in place. next thump the deck and other areas where there is core (regardless if it is balsa, foam, etc) for delamition using the handle of a heavy screwdriver. after that if the boat uses steel ballast or has a steel keel/centerboard/daggerboard check their condition/fuction. for the rest of the boat lmost everything can be fixed and/or replaced and/or custom made (for those parts that are specific to a boat model and the manufacturer is long gone). I firmly believe people buying a used boat need to spend a bit more money to purchased a boat that is ready to sail condition v. one needing work - boat repairs take LOTS of money and LOTS of time (there is no such thing as a 'free boat'). if you like working on boats, and know how to do the work correctly (or are willing to learn), buy a craft needing work. if you like to sail buy a boat that is ready to sail. one final thought - just buy new sails ... if the sails are older than 10 years they need to be replaced. OK I'll step off my soapbox. Now everyone get their boat ready for the upcoming season! If you are near/in AZ come to the Wrinkleboat Messabout on Lake Pleasant AZ Feb. 15-17 2020. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 7:32 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re bed all through deck fittings. 3: ventilate. Despite the high quality Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks. Trapped moisture INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel. Ed
Yes Ian. Some details below. Sorry I can't be there to help you defend your trophy. Mark The Second Annual Lake Pleasant Winter Messabout will convene at the same location as 2019 -Lake Pleasant Arizona - Fireman's Cove area, on February 15th 2020! All small human/sail powered craft to 20 feet are invited! No one is 'enforcing' this so if you are a bit larger...meh? - One participant will be sailing a 7 footer! Water levels look excellent - Shore camping and or spend the evenings onboard at the protected cove adjacent to the camp area.'Events' will consist of *Point to point sail 'races' for bragging rights and or touring for the non-competitive crews.* Excursion for lunch to remote water access only cove. Evening campfires for socializing ashore, and group cooking can be arranged.Paved launch ramp/Parking and Restrooms approx. 1/4 mile< from the campsite. Watch for more info. fairandsquare1 at G mail .com for questions On Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 10:23 Ian Black <seaweeble@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sorry to interrupt but is the Montgomery Knockabout this weekend at Lake Pleasant? Ian Black M-17 Seaweeble M-15 Judi B
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: jerry montgomery<mailto:jmbn1@outlook.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 10:45 AM To: Dave Scobie<mailto:scoobscobie@gmail.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats<mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
Very good, Dave. I agree with you 100%. Will I see you at Lake Pleasant?
jerry
________________________________ From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 8:49 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel.
Ed, respectfully, I think you are overstating things a bit. there are very very very few composite boats made using anything but polyester resin. what many current boat builders do is lay up the outer two/three layers of fiber BELOW the waterline using vinylester resin (almost as water resistant as epoxy and a less expensive). the rest of the layup below, and everything above is done using poly. there are exceptions - Sage Marine being one: 100% vinylester resin above, below and all layers including the gel coat.
epoxy is rarely used in production boats. #1 reason is cost. Next is, until recently, there was no gel coat that would work reliably with epoxy (the new epoxy gel coats are REALLY expensive!).
balsa/wood core that is above the waterline and NOT experiencing a leak from a crack in the fiberglass or a leaking fitting will not rot. there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to drive water into resin above the waterline caused by humidity and condensation. standing water in a filled to capacity very very deep bilge may cause issue over A VERY VERY VERY VERY long time. the issue with poly resin is external to the hull below the waterline - and this is mitigated using a barrier coat - and for a trailerable boat that isn't in the water for extended time wasteful of money (IMO).
i don't like the idea of a boat using balsa below the waterline.
modern wood boats are most commonly built with a covering of glass using epoxy (i own & live on one). most 'stitch and glue' craft use epoxy resin.
polyester fiberglass boats are REALLY REALLY really really long lasting. they don't go away - this is the main reason, IMO, why there are so few new sailboats built these days as there is LOTS LOTS LOTS of 'old plastic' still around and available for cheap cheap cheap. there are also a lot of good condition old boats available for a lot less than a new build. the issue on old boats is leaking deck hardware. prior owners that didn't keep ahead of the condition of the bedding compound make simple fixes a BIG problem. AND then there owners using silicone to stop a boat leak ... there needs to be a rule that there is only one tube of silicone at any marine store and it is under lock and key and requires extensive questioning before it is sold to any boat owner!!! (ha ha) Mboats using silicone at only two locations - bedding the plastic portlights to the house (the silicone is used as a gasket that will not eat the window plastic. the portlight is held in place by the stainless fasteners.)
in the marina my boat/home is currently moored she is one of the new boats - and she was completed in 2005. most of the boats present, especially the sailboats, are majority 70s and 80s built craft. maybe 10% of the boats present were built after 2000.
balsa core is an excellent material when used _correctly_ (ex, my comment above about not being below the waterline). it is lighter and has better compression load abilities than any same weight synthetic material. foams are just as likely to experience delamination caused by a leak as balsa. foam, and similar, doesn't rot but once you get delamination the strength is gone.
when buying a 'good old boat' check for evidence of leaks (easiest way is to see if there is weeping rust around a fitting (stainless rusts) and/or rust below deck on the nuts/bolts holding the fitting in place. next thump the deck and other areas where there is core (regardless if it is balsa, foam, etc) for delamition using the handle of a heavy screwdriver. after that if the boat uses steel ballast or has a steel keel/centerboard/daggerboard check their condition/fuction. for the rest of the boat lmost everything can be fixed and/or replaced and/or custom made (for those parts that are specific to a boat model and the manufacturer is long gone). I firmly believe people buying a used boat need to spend a bit more money to purchased a boat that is ready to sail condition v. one needing work - boat repairs take LOTS of money and LOTS of time (there is no such thing as a 'free boat'). if you like working on boats, and know how to do the work correctly (or are willing to learn), buy a craft needing work. if you like to sail buy a boat that is ready to sail.
one final thought - just buy new sails ... if the sails are older than 10 years they need to be replaced.
OK I'll step off my soapbox. Now everyone get their boat ready for the upcoming season! If you are near/in AZ come to the Wrinkleboat Messabout on Lake Pleasant AZ Feb. 15-17 2020.
:: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 7:32 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re bed all through deck fittings. 3: ventilate. Despite the high quality Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks. Trapped moisture INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel. Ed
Yes it is! Hope to see you there! If weather holds to it's normal pattern it should be great. Bring sunscreen. jerry ________________________________ From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Ian Black <seaweeble@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 10:22 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>; Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin Sorry to interrupt but is the Montgomery Knockabout this weekend at Lake Pleasant? Ian Black M-17 Seaweeble M-15 Judi B Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 From: jerry montgomery<mailto:jmbn1@outlook.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 10:45 AM To: Dave Scobie<mailto:scoobscobie@gmail.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats<mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin Very good, Dave. I agree with you 100%. Will I see you at Lake Pleasant? jerry ________________________________ From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 8:49 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel.
Ed, respectfully, I think you are overstating things a bit. there are very very very few composite boats made using anything but polyester resin. what many current boat builders do is lay up the outer two/three layers of fiber BELOW the waterline using vinylester resin (almost as water resistant as epoxy and a less expensive). the rest of the layup below, and everything above is done using poly. there are exceptions - Sage Marine being one: 100% vinylester resin above, below and all layers including the gel coat. epoxy is rarely used in production boats. #1 reason is cost. Next is, until recently, there was no gel coat that would work reliably with epoxy (the new epoxy gel coats are REALLY expensive!). balsa/wood core that is above the waterline and NOT experiencing a leak from a crack in the fiberglass or a leaking fitting will not rot. there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to drive water into resin above the waterline caused by humidity and condensation. standing water in a filled to capacity very very deep bilge may cause issue over A VERY VERY VERY VERY long time. the issue with poly resin is external to the hull below the waterline - and this is mitigated using a barrier coat - and for a trailerable boat that isn't in the water for extended time wasteful of money (IMO). i don't like the idea of a boat using balsa below the waterline. modern wood boats are most commonly built with a covering of glass using epoxy (i own & live on one). most 'stitch and glue' craft use epoxy resin. polyester fiberglass boats are REALLY REALLY really really long lasting. they don't go away - this is the main reason, IMO, why there are so few new sailboats built these days as there is LOTS LOTS LOTS of 'old plastic' still around and available for cheap cheap cheap. there are also a lot of good condition old boats available for a lot less than a new build. the issue on old boats is leaking deck hardware. prior owners that didn't keep ahead of the condition of the bedding compound make simple fixes a BIG problem. AND then there owners using silicone to stop a boat leak ... there needs to be a rule that there is only one tube of silicone at any marine store and it is under lock and key and requires extensive questioning before it is sold to any boat owner!!! (ha ha) Mboats using silicone at only two locations - bedding the plastic portlights to the house (the silicone is used as a gasket that will not eat the window plastic. the portlight is held in place by the stainless fasteners.) in the marina my boat/home is currently moored she is one of the new boats - and she was completed in 2005. most of the boats present, especially the sailboats, are majority 70s and 80s built craft. maybe 10% of the boats present were built after 2000. balsa core is an excellent material when used _correctly_ (ex, my comment above about not being below the waterline). it is lighter and has better compression load abilities than any same weight synthetic material. foams are just as likely to experience delamination caused by a leak as balsa. foam, and similar, doesn't rot but once you get delamination the strength is gone. when buying a 'good old boat' check for evidence of leaks (easiest way is to see if there is weeping rust around a fitting (stainless rusts) and/or rust below deck on the nuts/bolts holding the fitting in place. next thump the deck and other areas where there is core (regardless if it is balsa, foam, etc) for delamition using the handle of a heavy screwdriver. after that if the boat uses steel ballast or has a steel keel/centerboard/daggerboard check their condition/fuction. for the rest of the boat lmost everything can be fixed and/or replaced and/or custom made (for those parts that are specific to a boat model and the manufacturer is long gone). I firmly believe people buying a used boat need to spend a bit more money to purchased a boat that is ready to sail condition v. one needing work - boat repairs take LOTS of money and LOTS of time (there is no such thing as a 'free boat'). if you like working on boats, and know how to do the work correctly (or are willing to learn), buy a craft needing work. if you like to sail buy a boat that is ready to sail. one final thought - just buy new sails ... if the sails are older than 10 years they need to be replaced. OK I'll step off my soapbox. Now everyone get their boat ready for the upcoming season! If you are near/in AZ come to the Wrinkleboat Messabout on Lake Pleasant AZ Feb. 15-17 2020. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 7:32 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re bed all through deck fittings. 3: ventilate. Despite the high quality Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks. Trapped moisture INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel. Ed
Ian, Yes Yes Yes - we wil be back at the same location as last year for the Second Annual Messabout. Call me if you have questions - 602 703-SAIL seven two four five GO -----Original Message----- From: Ian Black <seaweeble@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>; Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Mon, Feb 10, 2020 11:31 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin Sorry to interrupt but is the Montgomery Knockabout this weekend at Lake Pleasant? Ian Black M-17 Seaweeble M-15 Judi B Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 From: jerry montgomery<mailto:jmbn1@outlook.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 10:45 AM To: Dave Scobie<mailto:scoobscobie@gmail.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats<mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin Very good, Dave. I agree with you 100%. Will I see you at Lake Pleasant? jerry ________________________________ From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> on behalf of Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, February 8, 2020 8:49 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: polyester resin
That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel.
Ed, respectfully, I think you are overstating things a bit. there are very very very few composite boats made using anything but polyester resin. what many current boat builders do is lay up the outer two/three layers of fiber BELOW the waterline using vinylester resin (almost as water resistant as epoxy and a less expensive). the rest of the layup below, and everything above is done using poly. there are exceptions - Sage Marine being one: 100% vinylester resin above, below and all layers including the gel coat. epoxy is rarely used in production boats. #1 reason is cost. Next is, until recently, there was no gel coat that would work reliably with epoxy (the new epoxy gel coats are REALLY expensive!). balsa/wood core that is above the waterline and NOT experiencing a leak from a crack in the fiberglass or a leaking fitting will not rot. there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to drive water into resin above the waterline caused by humidity and condensation. standing water in a filled to capacity very very deep bilge may cause issue over A VERY VERY VERY VERY long time. the issue with poly resin is external to the hull below the waterline - and this is mitigated using a barrier coat - and for a trailerable boat that isn't in the water for extended time wasteful of money (IMO). i don't like the idea of a boat using balsa below the waterline. modern wood boats are most commonly built with a covering of glass using epoxy (i own & live on one). most 'stitch and glue' craft use epoxy resin. polyester fiberglass boats are REALLY REALLY really really long lasting. they don't go away - this is the main reason, IMO, why there are so few new sailboats built these days as there is LOTS LOTS LOTS of 'old plastic' still around and available for cheap cheap cheap. there are also a lot of good condition old boats available for a lot less than a new build. the issue on old boats is leaking deck hardware. prior owners that didn't keep ahead of the condition of the bedding compound make simple fixes a BIG problem. AND then there owners using silicone to stop a boat leak ... there needs to be a rule that there is only one tube of silicone at any marine store and it is under lock and key and requires extensive questioning before it is sold to any boat owner!!! (ha ha) Mboats using silicone at only two locations - bedding the plastic portlights to the house (the silicone is used as a gasket that will not eat the window plastic. the portlight is held in place by the stainless fasteners.) in the marina my boat/home is currently moored she is one of the new boats - and she was completed in 2005. most of the boats present, especially the sailboats, are majority 70s and 80s built craft. maybe 10% of the boats present were built after 2000. balsa core is an excellent material when used _correctly_ (ex, my comment above about not being below the waterline). it is lighter and has better compression load abilities than any same weight synthetic material. foams are just as likely to experience delamination caused by a leak as balsa. foam, and similar, doesn't rot but once you get delamination the strength is gone. when buying a 'good old boat' check for evidence of leaks (easiest way is to see if there is weeping rust around a fitting (stainless rusts) and/or rust below deck on the nuts/bolts holding the fitting in place. next thump the deck and other areas where there is core (regardless if it is balsa, foam, etc) for delamition using the handle of a heavy screwdriver. after that if the boat uses steel ballast or has a steel keel/centerboard/daggerboard check their condition/fuction. for the rest of the boat lmost everything can be fixed and/or replaced and/or custom made (for those parts that are specific to a boat model and the manufacturer is long gone). I firmly believe people buying a used boat need to spend a bit more money to purchased a boat that is ready to sail condition v. one needing work - boat repairs take LOTS of money and LOTS of time (there is no such thing as a 'free boat'). if you like working on boats, and know how to do the work correctly (or are willing to learn), buy a craft needing work. if you like to sail buy a boat that is ready to sail. one final thought - just buy new sails ... if the sails are older than 10 years they need to be replaced. OK I'll step off my soapbox. Now everyone get their boat ready for the upcoming season! If you are near/in AZ come to the Wrinkleboat Messabout on Lake Pleasant AZ Feb. 15-17 2020. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 7:32 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
As far as prevention,I would add 1: get the boat dry inside and out; 2: Re bed all through deck fittings. 3: ventilate. Despite the high quality Montgomery initial construction, polyester resin is not impermeable and does not completely seal imbedded wood. Even if there are no fitting leaks. Trapped moisture INSIDE the boat is enough to cause failure.That’s why it’s no longer used for resin/ wood composite construction , and epoxy resins are now used. A polyester boat left in wind, rain, sun with balsa core has an Achilles heel. Ed
participants (9)
-
Dave Scobie -
Edward Epifani -
Gary Oberbeck -
Ian Black -
Jason Leckie -
jerry montgomery -
John Schinnerer -
Kirby Stross -
Mark Dvorscak