Montypals: I rigged and sailed with my 120 genoa (I think that is the size) for the first time while on vacation recently. It was really interesting. First, because it goes beyond the mast, I rigged the sheets outside the shrouds, inside the lifeline stanchions, and to the fairlead track and cam cleat I have on my cowlings. They are fairly aft. This seems like the right way to rig this. This genoa is made of very light fabric, possibly nylon, and has wonderful brass hanks. They are much nicer than the plastic hanks. I was sailing in a lake that had light, but gusty winds. It took a bit of time to figure out how to sail with it, but I finally was able to tack well with it. The trick was to let the sheets loose when tacking, and let the wind pull the thing well over so it didn't hang up, and then trim it in. Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm, and much more control. More head sail would naturally reduce weather helm, but I figured it would just increase heeling. The Monty heels so nicely, that more sail forward actually seems to help! Any thoughts on this? I will have some video of the genoa, and of my new TillerClutch posted soon. Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel
Daniel, Very interesting posting , much appreciated. When you send the video could you possibly show where and how your fairleads and cleats are mounted on the cowlings? I have a 170 Genoa, but have not worked up enough guts to fly it . Merci. RTH. -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Rich Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 12:22 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Sailing with the genoa on my M15 Montypals: I rigged and sailed with my 120 genoa (I think that is the size) for the first time while on vacation recently. It was really interesting. First, because it goes beyond the mast, I rigged the sheets outside the shrouds, inside the lifeline stanchions, and to the fairlead track and cam cleat I have on my cowlings. They are fairly aft. This seems like the right way to rig this. This genoa is made of very light fabric, possibly nylon, and has wonderful brass hanks. They are much nicer than the plastic hanks. I was sailing in a lake that had light, but gusty winds. It took a bit of time to figure out how to sail with it, but I finally was able to tack well with it. The trick was to let the sheets loose when tacking, and let the wind pull the thing well over so it didn't hang up, and then trim it in. Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm, and much more control. More head sail would naturally reduce weather helm, but I figured it would just increase heeling. The Monty heels so nicely, that more sail forward actually seems to help! Any thoughts on this? I will have some video of the genoa, and of my new TillerClutch posted soon. Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
You can see it in the video when I have it uploaded. I also have a drifter, which must be like your 170. I haven't had light enough winds yet, nor the courage to fly it! I suspect it would require a crewman to walk it past the mast when tacking. The 120 is small enough to come over on its own. I also have blocks on my stern pulpit. It might be that when rigging the drifter, I might need to run the sheet back to those blocks, and then forward to my cam cleats. They swivel, and would swivel aft for that purpose. The blocks on the stern pulpit are for the spinnaker I have, but I don't have that quite rigged yet. For one thing I need to get a spinnaker pole! Soon. Daniel On Jul 30, 2011, at 10:02 PM, Robert Hall wrote:
Daniel, Very interesting posting , much appreciated. When you send the video could you possibly show where and how your fairleads and cleats are mounted on the cowlings? I have a 170 Genoa, but have not worked up enough guts to fly it . Merci. RTH.
-----Original Message----- From: Daniel Rich Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 12:22 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Sailing with the genoa on my M15
Montypals:
I rigged and sailed with my 120 genoa (I think that is the size) for the first time while on vacation recently. It was really interesting. First, because it goes beyond the mast, I rigged the sheets outside the shrouds, inside the lifeline stanchions, and to the fairlead track and cam cleat I have on my cowlings. They are fairly aft. This seems like the right way to rig this. This genoa is made of very light fabric, possibly nylon, and has wonderful brass hanks. They are much nicer than the plastic hanks. I was sailing in a lake that had light, but gusty winds. It took a bit of time to figure out how to sail with it, but I finally was able to tack well with it. The trick was to let the sheets loose when tacking, and let the wind pull the thing well over so it didn't hang up, and then trim it in.
Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm, and much more control. More head sail would naturally reduce weather helm, but I figured it would just increase heeling. The Monty heels so nicely, that more sail forward actually seems to help! Any thoughts on this?
I will have some video of the genoa, and of my new TillerClutch posted soon.
Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Daniel, You said "Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm". Some weather helm adds lift to weather from the rudder. I understand the "ideal" is about 3 - 5 degrees off the centerline for the tiller. My Gaff cutter really handles the wind well and like you said it seems to accelerate and feel good with less weather helm. However when racing it at Havasu last year with other boats around I discovered that the leeway increased substantially and I actually lost ground when beating to windward. The leeway was substantial and I now roll up my outer jib and beat to weather with just the staysail when the winds are getting above 10 -12 kts. On some cruises with other M15, before I converted to the Gaff Cutter, I was also able to point higher and move a little faster than the boats with Genoa's. What do other people think? My impression of the M17 mast head rig is that none of this applies or is this a wives tale as well? Thanks Doug Kelch M15G #310 "Seas the Day" ________________________________ From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:22 PM Subject: M_Boats: Sailing with the genoa on my M15 Montypals: I rigged and sailed with my 120 genoa (I think that is the size) for the first time while on vacation recently. It was really interesting. First, because it goes beyond the mast, I rigged the sheets outside the shrouds, inside the lifeline stanchions, and to the fairlead track and cam cleat I have on my cowlings. They are fairly aft. This seems like the right way to rig this. This genoa is made of very light fabric, possibly nylon, and has wonderful brass hanks. They are much nicer than the plastic hanks. I was sailing in a lake that had light, but gusty winds. It took a bit of time to figure out how to sail with it, but I finally was able to tack well with it. The trick was to let the sheets loose when tacking, and let the wind pull the thing well over so it didn't hang up, and then trim it in. Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm, and much more control. More head sail would naturally reduce weather helm, but I figured it would just increase heeling. The Monty heels so nicely, that more sail forward actually seems to help! Any thoughts on this? I will have some video of the genoa, and of my new TillerClutch posted soon. Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
OK, that is very interesting. I have not raced, nor have I been around other M boats while sailing. I hope to remedy that at some point! In a stiff breeze with my working jib I definitely have to pull the tiller to windward a bit to keep the boat close hauled. It seems like I need to use a fair amount of pull to achieve that. How much is correct I don't know. It would be interesting to see what other boats do under similar conditions. Daniel On Jul 31, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Doug Kelch wrote:
Daniel,
You said "Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm".
Some weather helm adds lift to weather from the rudder. I understand the "ideal" is about 3 - 5 degrees off the centerline for the tiller. My Gaff cutter really handles the wind well and like you said it seems to accelerate and feel good with less weather helm. However when racing it at Havasu last year with other boats around I discovered that the leeway increased substantially and I actually lost ground when beating to windward.
The leeway was substantial and I now roll up my outer jib and beat to weather with just the staysail when the winds are getting above 10 -12 kts.
On some cruises with other M15, before I converted to the Gaff Cutter, I was also able to point higher and move a little faster than the boats with Genoa's.
What do other people think? My impression of the M17 mast head rig is that none of this applies or is this a wives tale as well?
Thanks
Doug Kelch M15G #310 "Seas the Day"
________________________________ From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:22 PM Subject: M_Boats: Sailing with the genoa on my M15
Montypals:
I rigged and sailed with my 120 genoa (I think that is the size) for the first time while on vacation recently. It was really interesting. First, because it goes beyond the mast, I rigged the sheets outside the shrouds, inside the lifeline stanchions, and to the fairlead track and cam cleat I have on my cowlings. They are fairly aft. This seems like the right way to rig this. This genoa is made of very light fabric, possibly nylon, and has wonderful brass hanks. They are much nicer than the plastic hanks. I was sailing in a lake that had light, but gusty winds. It took a bit of time to figure out how to sail with it, but I finally was able to tack well with it. The trick was to let the sheets loose when tacking, and let the wind pull the thing well over so it didn't hang up, and then trim it in.
Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm, and much more control. More head sail would naturally reduce weather helm, but I figured it would just increase heeling. The Monty heels so nicely, that more sail forward actually seems to help! Any thoughts on this?
I will have some video of the genoa, and of my new TillerClutch posted soon.
Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
I fight the weather helm as well on my M15. Taking a reef in the main takes care of that though I am wondering if adjusting the sail trim in some way would lessen the helm?. My boat points pretty well and Doug and I were dueling out over at Havsau this spring things were going pretty well until the reach leg of the course and thats when the gaff rig over took me. Bill Kaiser M15 "Desert Dawn" On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
OK, that is very interesting. I have not raced, nor have I been around other M boats while sailing. I hope to remedy that at some point!
In a stiff breeze with my working jib I definitely have to pull the tiller to windward a bit to keep the boat close hauled. It seems like I need to use a fair amount of pull to achieve that. How much is correct I don't know. It would be interesting to see what other boats do under similar conditions.
Daniel On Jul 31, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Doug Kelch wrote:
Daniel,
You said "Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm".
Some weather helm adds lift to weather from the rudder. I understand the "ideal" is about 3 - 5 degrees off the centerline for the tiller. My Gaff cutter really handles the wind well and like you said it seems to accelerate and feel good with less weather helm. However when racing it at Havasu last year with other boats around I discovered that the leeway increased substantially and I actually lost ground when beating to windward.
The leeway was substantial and I now roll up my outer jib and beat to weather with just the staysail when the winds are getting above 10 -12 kts.
On some cruises with other M15, before I converted to the Gaff Cutter, I was also able to point higher and move a little faster than the boats with Genoa's.
What do other people think? My impression of the M17 mast head rig is that none of this applies or is this a wives tale as well?
Thanks
Doug Kelch M15G #310 "Seas the Day"
________________________________ From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 9:22 PM Subject: M_Boats: Sailing with the genoa on my M15
Montypals:
I rigged and sailed with my 120 genoa (I think that is the size) for the first time while on vacation recently. It was really interesting. First, because it goes beyond the mast, I rigged the sheets outside the shrouds, inside the lifeline stanchions, and to the fairlead track and cam cleat I have on my cowlings. They are fairly aft. This seems like the right way to rig this. This genoa is made of very light fabric, possibly nylon, and has wonderful brass hanks. They are much nicer than the plastic hanks. I was sailing in a lake that had light, but gusty winds. It took a bit of time to figure out how to sail with it, but I finally was able to tack well with it. The trick was to let the sheets loose when tacking, and let the wind pull the thing well over so it didn't hang up, and then trim it in.
Now, one thing I noticed was that with big gusts of 10-12 knots, I had so much less weather helm, and much more control. More head sail would naturally reduce weather helm, but I figured it would just increase heeling. The Monty heels so nicely, that more sail forward actually seems to help! Any thoughts on this?
I will have some video of the genoa, and of my new TillerClutch posted soon.
Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
When posting, remember that there is no privacy on the Internet!
Between job, wife, 1 disabled son, 2 sons now in college, I feel I need to sell my M15. It will be going up on Sailing Texas this week. Photos can be found here: http://s325.photobucket.com/albums/k374/Hoosier_Daddy/Montgomery/ Located Sugar Land TX I can be contacted directed at joemoore@josephmoore.com <mailto:joemoore@josephmoore.com>
participants (5)
-
Bill Kaiser -
Daniel Rich -
Doug Kelch -
Joe Moore -
Robert Hall