Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to. JimD Sent from Windows Mail From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke). Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote: Jim, Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine. Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference. I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong. Rik On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
-- "Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Jim, Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight. As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat. I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from. As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables. Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Oops, I tried to say ""….I have never used either backup……", but I accidentally left in an extrat "not". Tom Jenkins On Nov 25, 2012, at 2:36 PM, Tom Jenkins wrote:
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Aloha, On 11/25/2012 12:36 PM, Tom Jenkins wrote:...
my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery,
Are you saying the Torqueedo can run directly off the the inverter? Without having to wait for its own battery to take a (sloooowwww) charge from that source? thanks, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, Obviously a good question, but I have not tried this personally, and therefore do not have a definitive answer (although I keep an inverter and the charger onboard). I am tentatively going by the following passage from the operating manual: "The battery electronics also allow the battery to be charged when in use (charging and discharging at the same time). In this case, the input power displayed in the tiller represents only the power taken from the battery. If the charging power is higher then the power consumed by the motor the display indicates a power consumption of zero watts." Elsewhere the manual states that an inverter must put out >80 watts. What I don't know is whether my 400 watt inverter will cause the motor to draw more amps from the house battery than would my 150 watt inverter, and what speed I could maintain on one inverter or the other while keeping the motor's battery from discharging. My guess is that both batteries will discharge at a usable boat speed, but the range will be extended significantly. Since I brought this up, I will carry out a trial at Lake Havasu in February (if not before), and report back. This will hurt badly if the winds are good, but it won't be so difficult if a dead calm day pops up. Tom Jenkins On Nov 25, 2012, at 3:11 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Aloha,
On 11/25/2012 12:36 PM, Tom Jenkins wrote:...
my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery,
Are you saying the Torqueedo can run directly off the the inverter? Without having to wait for its own battery to take a (sloooowwww) charge from that source?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
A while back I took my OB in the shop to be fitted with an alternator. Not wanting to miss a great sail day a friend of mine and I took SeaFrog out. We used the oars from a dinghy. I was amazed how easy it was for the two of us to paddle out of the inlet to the ICW wth the tiller tamer locked down. I still have the OB but it's nice to know that these 17's can be rowed so easily. BTW, I nixed the alternator after the mechanic told me I'd be very disappointed. He said I'd be better off with a 5w solar panel. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards Jim, Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight. As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat. I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from. As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables. Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Joe, Good news about "paddle-ability" of the 17. I don't carry paddles so I have not tried it, but I might just give it a go. I always think in terms of doing the paddling alone, which would be more of a challenge, so I have confined myself to sculling with the rudder when the distance was small and the need was great. Too bad someone with engineer/fabrication talent doesn't fashion a real sculling oar attachment to the Ruddercraft unit, since sculling has moved small working sailboats for thousands of years. Tom M17 Scintilla On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
A while back I took my OB in the shop to be fitted with an alternator. Not wanting to miss a great sail day a friend of mine and I took SeaFrog out. We used the oars from a dinghy. I was amazed how easy it was for the two of us to paddle out of the inlet to the ICW wth the tiller tamer locked down. I still have the OB but it's nice to know that these 17's can be rowed so easily. BTW, I nixed the alternator after the mechanic told me I'd be very disappointed. He said I'd be better off with a 5w solar panel. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
The Pardey's have a chapter in one of their books about sculling. If they can push a 5 ton cutter I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to push a Monty. I saw a device to make a sculling oar from a long oar. It consisted of two 6" tubes. They were welded on top of each other with a spacer that offset the two tubes by about 20-25 degrees. The idea is to take an oar and cut it in two. Put the blade end in the lower part and the handle end in the top part. This does two things. First, you don't have to hold the oar as high as you would with one straight oar. And secondly, the space between the tow creates the right twist. Another consideration is the chinese yuloh. Although I have no idea where to find one and I have no woodworking shop, not to mention skills to make one..... Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards Joe, Good news about "paddle-ability" of the 17. I don't carry paddles so I have not tried it, but I might just give it a go. I always think in terms of doing the paddling alone, which would be more of a challenge, so I have confined myself to sculling with the rudder when the distance was small and the need was great. Too bad someone with engineer/fabrication talent doesn't fashion a real sculling oar attachment to the Ruddercraft unit, since sculling has moved small working sailboats for thousands of years. Tom M17 Scintilla On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
A while back I took my OB in the shop to be fitted with an alternator. Not wanting to miss a great sail day a friend of mine and I took SeaFrog out. We used the oars from a dinghy. I was amazed how easy it was for the two of us to paddle out of the inlet to the ICW wth the tiller tamer locked down. I still have the OB but it's nice to know that these 17's can be rowed so easily. BTW, I nixed the alternator after the mechanic told me I'd be very disappointed. He said I'd be better off with a 5w solar panel. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Hi guys, You can get that sculling fixtureJoe mentioned from Duckworks. It's called a Scullmatix Here's a link http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/scullmatix/index.htm Rik On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
The Pardey's have a chapter in one of their books about sculling. If they can push a 5 ton cutter I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to push a Monty. I saw a device to make a sculling oar from a long oar. It consisted of two 6" tubes. They were welded on top of each other with a spacer that offset the two tubes by about 20-25 degrees. The idea is to take an oar and cut it in two. Put the blade end in the lower part and the handle end in the top part. This does two things. First, you don't have to hold the oar as high as you would with one straight oar. And secondly, the space between the tow creates the right twist. Another consideration is the chinese yuloh. Although I have no idea where to find one and I have no woodworking shop, not to mention skills to make one..... Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Joe,
Good news about "paddle-ability" of the 17. I don't carry paddles so I have not tried it, but I might just give it a go. I always think in terms of doing the paddling alone, which would be more of a challenge, so I have confined myself to sculling with the rudder when the distance was small and the need was great. Too bad someone with engineer/fabrication talent doesn't fashion a real sculling oar attachment to the Ruddercraft unit, since sculling has moved small working sailboats for thousands of years.
Tom M17 Scintilla
On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
A while back I took my OB in the shop to be fitted with an alternator. Not wanting to miss a great sail day a friend of mine and I took SeaFrog out. We used the oars from a dinghy. I was amazed how easy it was for the two of us to paddle out of the inlet to the ICW wth the tiller tamer locked down. I still have the OB but it's nice to know that these 17's can be rowed so easily. BTW, I nixed the alternator after the mechanic told me I'd be very disappointed. He said I'd be better off with a 5w solar panel. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist < jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
-- "Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Rik, I too thank you for passing this along. You gotta love those inventors. Now all Duckworks needs to do is fabricate a padded oarlock assembly that clamps on the transom, and sell it as a unit with the Scullmatix. Failing that, I might even try to whip up a version myself. Tom On Nov 26, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Rik Sandberg wrote:
Hi guys,
You can get that sculling fixtureJoe mentioned from Duckworks. It's called a Scullmatix
Here's a link
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/scullmatix/index.htm
Rik
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
The Pardey's have a chapter in one of their books about sculling. If they can push a 5 ton cutter I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to push a Monty. I saw a device to make a sculling oar from a long oar. It consisted of two 6" tubes. They were welded on top of each other with a spacer that offset the two tubes by about 20-25 degrees. The idea is to take an oar and cut it in two. Put the blade end in the lower part and the handle end in the top part. This does two things. First, you don't have to hold the oar as high as you would with one straight oar. And secondly, the space between the tow creates the right twist. Another consideration is the chinese yuloh. Although I have no idea where to find one and I have no woodworking shop, not to mention skills to make one..... Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Joe,
Good news about "paddle-ability" of the 17. I don't carry paddles so I have not tried it, but I might just give it a go. I always think in terms of doing the paddling alone, which would be more of a challenge, so I have confined myself to sculling with the rudder when the distance was small and the need was great. Too bad someone with engineer/fabrication talent doesn't fashion a real sculling oar attachment to the Ruddercraft unit, since sculling has moved small working sailboats for thousands of years.
Tom M17 Scintilla
On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
A while back I took my OB in the shop to be fitted with an alternator. Not wanting to miss a great sail day a friend of mine and I took SeaFrog out. We used the oars from a dinghy. I was amazed how easy it was for the two of us to paddle out of the inlet to the ICW wth the tiller tamer locked down. I still have the OB but it's nice to know that these 17's can be rowed so easily. BTW, I nixed the alternator after the mechanic told me I'd be very disappointed. He said I'd be better off with a 5w solar panel. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist < jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
In theory, this would seem to be similar to this Japanese sculling oar: http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/articles/howto/sculling_oar/index.html Because the blade is off center of the loom, as is the handle, it automatically rotates to the desired angle. The other thing to notice about such a sculling oar is how much blade is in the water vs. what you would find with a traditional oar.....nearly 2 to 3 times as much. Seems strange, but they work. On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:35 PM, Tom Jenkins wrote:
Rik,
I too thank you for passing this along. You gotta love those inventors. Now all Duckworks needs to do is fabricate a padded oarlock assembly that clamps on the transom, and sell it as a unit with the Scullmatix. Failing that, I might even try to whip up a version myself.
Tom
On Nov 26, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Rik Sandberg wrote:
Hi guys,
You can get that sculling fixtureJoe mentioned from Duckworks. It's called a Scullmatix
Here's a link
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/scullmatix/index.htm
Rik
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
The Pardey's have a chapter in one of their books about sculling. If they can push a 5 ton cutter I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to push a Monty. I saw a device to make a sculling oar from a long oar. It consisted of two 6" tubes. They were welded on top of each other with a spacer that offset the two tubes by about 20-25 degrees. The idea is to take an oar and cut it in two. Put the blade end in the lower part and the handle end in the top part. This does two things. First, you don't have to hold the oar as high as you would with one straight oar. And secondly, the space between the tow creates the right twist. Another consideration is the chinese yuloh. Although I have no idea where to find one and I have no woodworking shop, not to mention skills to make one..... Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Joe,
Good news about "paddle-ability" of the 17. I don't carry paddles so I have not tried it, but I might just give it a go. I always think in terms of doing the paddling alone, which would be more of a challenge, so I have confined myself to sculling with the rudder when the distance was small and the need was great. Too bad someone with engineer/fabrication talent doesn't fashion a real sculling oar attachment to the Ruddercraft unit, since sculling has moved small working sailboats for thousands of years.
Tom M17 Scintilla
On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
A while back I took my OB in the shop to be fitted with an alternator. Not wanting to miss a great sail day a friend of mine and I took SeaFrog out. We used the oars from a dinghy. I was amazed how easy it was for the two of us to paddle out of the inlet to the ICW wth the tiller tamer locked down. I still have the OB but it's nice to know that these 17's can be rowed so easily. BTW, I nixed the alternator after the mechanic told me I'd be very disappointed. He said I'd be better off with a 5w solar panel. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist < jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Glad I could help. I have sculled our Flicka a couple times in the past. It isn't fast, but you can get where you want to go. Had a 10.5 foot oar just for that purpose. No fancy fixtures though, just a line with a loop in it tied between the aft stanchions. I read the Pardey's book too and wanted to try it without making any holes in the boat. I would think sculling a 15 or 17 would be a cake walk compared to 6000 lbs. of Flicka. I've been meaning to try it with our M-15 but haven't got around to it yet. Too late this year. Maybe next summer. Rik On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net>wrote:
In theory, this would seem to be similar to this Japanese sculling oar:
http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/articles/howto/sculling_oar/index.html
Because the blade is off center of the loom, as is the handle, it automatically rotates to the desired angle. The other thing to notice about such a sculling oar is how much blade is in the water vs. what you would find with a traditional oar.....nearly 2 to 3 times as much. Seems strange, but they work.
On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:35 PM, Tom Jenkins wrote:
Rik,
I too thank you for passing this along. You gotta love those inventors. Now all Duckworks needs to do is fabricate a padded oarlock assembly that clamps on the transom, and sell it as a unit with the Scullmatix. Failing that, I might even try to whip up a version myself.
Tom
On Nov 26, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Rik Sandberg wrote:
Hi guys,
You can get that sculling fixtureJoe mentioned from Duckworks. It's called a Scullmatix
Here's a link
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/scullmatix/index.htm
Rik
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
The Pardey's have a chapter in one of their books about sculling. If they can push a 5 ton cutter I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to push a Monty. I saw a device to make a sculling oar from a long oar. It consisted of two 6" tubes. They were welded on top of each other with a spacer that offset the two tubes by about 20-25 degrees. The idea is to take an oar and cut it in two. Put the blade end in the lower part and the handle end in the top part. This does two things. First, you don't have to hold the oar as high as you would with one straight oar. And secondly, the space between the tow creates the right twist. Another consideration is the chinese yuloh. Although I have no idea where to find one and I have no woodworking shop, not to mention skills to make one..... Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Joe,
Good news about "paddle-ability" of the 17. I don't carry paddles so I have not tried it, but I might just give it a go. I always think in terms of doing the paddling alone, which would be more of a challenge, so I have confined myself to sculling with the rudder when the distance was small and the need was great. Too bad someone with engineer/fabrication talent doesn't fashion a real sculling oar attachment to the Ruddercraft unit, since sculling has moved small working sailboats for thousands of years.
Tom M17 Scintilla
On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
A while back I took my OB in the shop to be fitted with an alternator. Not wanting to miss a great sail day a friend of mine and I took SeaFrog out. We used the oars from a dinghy. I was amazed how easy it was for the two of us to paddle out of the inlet to the ICW wth the tiller tamer locked down. I still have the OB but it's nice to know that these 17's can be rowed so easily. BTW, I nixed the alternator after the mechanic told me I'd be very disappointed. He said I'd be better off with a 5w solar panel. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist < jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
> I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator > from gasoline to propane. > Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 > 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. > I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. > So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are > way too popular right now. > But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list. > > BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full > data first. Is that correct? > > Jim Dahlquist > jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
-- "Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Here's a site that may be of interest. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards Rik, I too thank you for passing this along. You gotta love those inventors. Now all Duckworks needs to do is fabricate a padded oarlock assembly that clamps on the transom, and sell it as a unit with the Scullmatix. Failing that, I might even try to whip up a version myself. Tom On Nov 26, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Rik Sandberg wrote:
Hi guys,
You can get that sculling fixtureJoe mentioned from Duckworks. It's called a Scullmatix
Here's a link
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/scullmatix/index.htm
Rik
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote:
The Pardey's have a chapter in one of their books about sculling. If they can push a 5 ton cutter I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to push a Monty. I saw a device to make a sculling oar from a long oar. It consisted of two 6" tubes. They were welded on top of each other with a spacer that offset the two tubes by about 20-25 degrees. The idea is to take an oar and cut it in two. Put the blade end in the lower part and the handle end in the top part. This does two things. First, you don't have to hold the oar as high as you would with one straight oar. And secondly, the space between the tow creates the right twist. Another consideration is the chinese yuloh. Although I have no idea where to find one and I have no woodworking shop, not to mention skills to make one..... Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Joe,
Good news about "paddle-ability" of the 17. I don't carry paddles so I have not tried it, but I might just give it a go. I always think in terms of doing the paddling alone, which would be more of a challenge, so I have confined myself to sculling with the rudder when the distance was small and the need was great. Too bad someone with engineer/fabrication talent doesn't fashion a real sculling oar attachment to the Ruddercraft unit, since sculling has moved small working sailboats for thousands of years.
Tom M17 Scintilla
On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
A while back I took my OB in the shop to be fitted with an alternator. Not wanting to miss a great sail day a friend of mine and I took SeaFrog out. We used the oars from a dinghy. I was amazed how easy it was for the two of us to paddle out of the inlet to the ICW wth the tiller tamer locked down. I still have the OB but it's nice to know that these 17's can be rowed so easily. BTW, I nixed the alternator after the mechanic told me I'd be very disappointed. He said I'd be better off with a 5w solar panel. Joe SeaFrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Jenkins To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:36 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist < jimdahlquist@gmail.com>wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
Oops. Forgot to provide the link.. http://www.diy-wood-boat.com/Sculling.html#The_Technique._ Joe
i've 'paddled' my M15, M17 and S17 single handed. have a canoe paddle that is about 3.5' long. center the rudder with the TillerClutch and paddle. i've done this as a test and have done it a few times just to move around docks (not wanting to start the motor). just a bit faster than sculling with the rudder. paddling or rudder sculling wouldn't be effective in any sort of breeze or if seas up. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com --- On Mon, 11/26/12, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Joe,
Good news about "paddle-ability" of the 17. I don't carry paddles so I have not tried it, but I might just give it a go. I always think in terms of doing the paddling alone, which would be more of a challenge, so I have confined myself to sculling with the rudder when the distance was small and the need was great. Too bad someone with engineer/fabrication talent doesn't fashion a real sculling oar attachment to the Ruddercraft unit, since sculling has moved small working sailboats for thousands of years.
Tom M17 Scintilla
Hi Tom, Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=1959942 It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may be worth it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale. I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions. I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines. Thanks. Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL ===== On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" …. Thomas Sowell
sadly the LEHR 2.5 is _not_ available in a 20" shaft ... only the 5HP has 15" and 20" shaft options. i've talked to the LEHR reps a few times last year about the need for a 20" shaft in the 2.5HP for the small boat market ... they have no interest and have 'plans to make the long shaft version.' if a 2.5 20" came out i would quickly get two - one for S17 AIR BORN and a second for M15 JUSTUS ... and maybe a third for Moore 24 HAPPY THOUGHTS. the hope is enough folks ask for a 20" 2.5 they may change plans ... but the bean counters likely don't see sailboats as a market for the motors (i bet they only see inflatable dinghies). :: Dave Scobie --- On Thu, 1/3/13, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=1959942 It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may be worth it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale.
I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions.
I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines.
Thanks.
Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL
Jim and Dave, The info you passed along about LEHR engines is quite valuable for an M-17 owner, since the 5 hp long shaft would be a nice fit. I have stored up to a dozen canisters at a time onboard my various boats for stove and lantern fuel, and it's easy to find cubbyholes for them. It's a long shot, but it's possible that the 5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range. Certainly one or two 1 gal steel tanks would fit, and a bunch of quart cylinders. Tom On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:06 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
sadly the LEHR 2.5 is _not_ available in a 20" shaft ... only the 5HP has 15" and 20" shaft options.
i've talked to the LEHR reps a few times last year about the need for a 20" shaft in the 2.5HP for the small boat market ... they have no interest and have 'plans to make the long shaft version.' if a 2.5 20" came out i would quickly get two - one for S17 AIR BORN and a second for M15 JUSTUS ... and maybe a third for Moore 24 HAPPY THOUGHTS.
the hope is enough folks ask for a 20" 2.5 they may change plans ... but the bean counters likely don't see sailboats as a market for the motors (i bet they only see inflatable dinghies).
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Thu, 1/3/13, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=1959942 It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may be worth it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale.
I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions.
I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines.
Thanks.
Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL
I agree that for the M17 the 5HP LEHR becomes a real option. At the Annapolis Sailboat Show in October I talked with the LEHR rep about the motors (mostly pushing for a long shaft 2.5HP) and asked what the range for the 2.5HP. I can't remember the exact running time the rep quoted (running time, hours, is a better measure than distance IMO). i do remember that the range with a one pound canister (the little coleman types) was longer than i can get from a gallon of gas using the Honda 2HP - i can get about one-ish hour per quart of gas (equals a range of about four hours) running the honda at 1/2 throttle.
5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range.
i agree Tom. just a bit of saw-all work to the rear cockpit locker followed by some fiberglass one would be set! :: Dave Scobie --- On Fri, 1/4/13, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Jim and Dave,
The info you passed along about LEHR engines is quite valuable for an M-17 owner, since the 5 hp long shaft would be a nice fit. I have stored up to a dozen canisters at a time onboard my various boats for stove and lantern fuel, and it's easy to find cubbyholes for them. It's a long shot, but it's possible that the 5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range. Certainly one or two 1 gal steel tanks would fit, and a bunch of quart cylinders.
Tom
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:06 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
sadly the LEHR 2.5 is _not_ available in a 20" shaft ... only the 5HP has 15" and 20" shaft options.
i've talked to the LEHR reps a few times last year about the need for a 20" shaft in the 2.5HP for the small boat market ... they have no interest and have 'plans to make the long shaft version.' if a 2.5 20" came out i would quickly get two - one for S17 AIR BORN and a second for M15 JUSTUS ... and maybe a third for Moore 24 HAPPY THOUGHTS.
the hope is enough folks ask for a 20" 2.5 they may change plans ... but the bean counters likely don't see sailboats as a market for the motors (i bet they only see inflatable dinghies).
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Thu, 1/3/13, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=1959942 It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may
be worth
it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale.
I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions.
I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines.
Thanks.
Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL
What about reliability factor on these engines is there a site one can go to check it out. George We can not control the Wind But we can adjust our Sails -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of W David Scobie Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 5:59 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: LEHR Propane Outboard I agree that for the M17 the 5HP LEHR becomes a real option. At the Annapolis Sailboat Show in October I talked with the LEHR rep about the motors (mostly pushing for a long shaft 2.5HP) and asked what the range for the 2.5HP. I can't remember the exact running time the rep quoted (running time, hours, is a better measure than distance IMO). i do remember that the range with a one pound canister (the little coleman types) was longer than i can get from a gallon of gas using the Honda 2HP - i can get about one-ish hour per quart of gas (equals a range of about four hours) running the honda at 1/2 throttle.
5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range.
i agree Tom. just a bit of saw-all work to the rear cockpit locker followed by some fiberglass one would be set! :: Dave Scobie --- On Fri, 1/4/13, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Jim and Dave,
The info you passed along about LEHR engines is quite valuable for an M-17 owner, since the 5 hp long shaft would be a nice fit. I have stored up to a dozen canisters at a time onboard my various boats for stove and lantern fuel, and it's easy to find cubbyholes for them. It's a long shot, but it's possible that the 5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range. Certainly one or two 1 gal steel tanks would fit, and a bunch of quart cylinders.
Tom
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:06 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
sadly the LEHR 2.5 is _not_ available in a 20" shaft ... only the 5HP has 15" and 20" shaft options.
i've talked to the LEHR reps a few times last year about the need for a 20" shaft in the 2.5HP for the small boat market ... they have no interest and have 'plans to make the long shaft version.' if a 2.5 20" came out i would quickly get two - one for S17 AIR BORN and a second for M15 JUSTUS ... and maybe a third for Moore 24 HAPPY THOUGHTS.
the hope is enough folks ask for a 20" 2.5 they may change plans ... but the bean counters likely don't see sailboats as a market for the motors (i bet they only see inflatable dinghies).
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Thu, 1/3/13, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=195994 2
It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may be worth it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale.
I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions.
I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines.
Thanks.
Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL
It seems unlikely that a 4-cycle running on propane would get more hrs/gallon than a gas engine, because propane cars typically get a little worse mileage than gas vehicles (fewer BTU/gal). I think I read a review of the LEHR that suggested one hour per quart at 1/2 throttle (1/2 hour at full throttle) is about right, so we are in the same ballpark. The interesting thing is that canisters of propane can be purchased widely (sporting goods stores, big box retailers, and some markets), whereas gasoline needs a gas station. Frankly, I have rather extensive up-close-and-personal propane experience, having backpacked many one and two-gallon tanks into the high country to run a winter tent-based research operation. It is much less scary than gasoline, and can be used for light, heat, cooking, and maybe a jury-rigged jet pack :-) On Jan 4, 2013, at 3:59 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
I agree that for the M17 the 5HP LEHR becomes a real option.
At the Annapolis Sailboat Show in October I talked with the LEHR rep about the motors (mostly pushing for a long shaft 2.5HP) and asked what the range for the 2.5HP. I can't remember the exact running time the rep quoted (running time, hours, is a better measure than distance IMO). i do remember that the range with a one pound canister (the little coleman types) was longer than i can get from a gallon of gas using the Honda 2HP - i can get about one-ish hour per quart of gas (equals a range of about four hours) running the honda at 1/2 throttle.
5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range.
i agree Tom. just a bit of saw-all work to the rear cockpit locker followed by some fiberglass one would be set!
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Fri, 1/4/13, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Jim and Dave,
The info you passed along about LEHR engines is quite valuable for an M-17 owner, since the 5 hp long shaft would be a nice fit. I have stored up to a dozen canisters at a time onboard my various boats for stove and lantern fuel, and it's easy to find cubbyholes for them. It's a long shot, but it's possible that the 5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range. Certainly one or two 1 gal steel tanks would fit, and a bunch of quart cylinders.
Tom
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:06 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
sadly the LEHR 2.5 is _not_ available in a 20" shaft ... only the 5HP has 15" and 20" shaft options.
i've talked to the LEHR reps a few times last year about the need for a 20" shaft in the 2.5HP for the small boat market ... they have no interest and have 'plans to make the long shaft version.' if a 2.5 20" came out i would quickly get two - one for S17 AIR BORN and a second for M15 JUSTUS ... and maybe a third for Moore 24 HAPPY THOUGHTS.
the hope is enough folks ask for a 20" 2.5 they may change plans ... but the bean counters likely don't see sailboats as a market for the motors (i bet they only see inflatable dinghies).
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Thu, 1/3/13, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=1959942 It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may
be worth
it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale.
I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions.
I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines.
Thanks.
Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL
The big advantage I can see is that propane, as a fuel, does not contain ethanol that will attract water or separate over time, leading to a wrecked engine. They mention a lot of advantages, but seem to have left that one out. On the other hand, propane explosions are spectacular and may be one of the biggest dangers cruising boaters face. Propane is heavier than air and will sink, filling the container. On an M15 or M17, that would be the entire boat to the sheer line. If you had that much propane on board, you would want it in a contained propane locker set to drain overboard. Even the little guys. With propane, you don't get second chances. Most marinas are not setup to handle/offer propane, but probably could be, or else venders would likely begin to offer the tank trade stations. On the other hand, based on how I normally use a motor, which is to get in and out of the marina, I could function on a 5# tank all summer long. Interesting concept. On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Tom Jenkins wrote:
It seems unlikely that a 4-cycle running on propane would get more hrs/gallon than a gas engine, because propane cars typically get a little worse mileage than gas vehicles (fewer BTU/gal). I think I read a review of the LEHR that suggested one hour per quart at 1/2 throttle (1/2 hour at full throttle) is about right, so we are in the same ballpark. The interesting thing is that canisters of propane can be purchased widely (sporting goods stores, big box retailers, and some markets), whereas gasoline needs a gas station.
Frankly, I have rather extensive up-close-and-personal propane experience, having backpacked many one and two-gallon tanks into the high country to run a winter tent-based research operation. It is much less scary than gasoline, and can be used for light, heat, cooking, and maybe a jury-rigged jet pack :-)
On Jan 4, 2013, at 3:59 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
I agree that for the M17 the 5HP LEHR becomes a real option.
At the Annapolis Sailboat Show in October I talked with the LEHR rep about the motors (mostly pushing for a long shaft 2.5HP) and asked what the range for the 2.5HP. I can't remember the exact running time the rep quoted (running time, hours, is a better measure than distance IMO). i do remember that the range with a one pound canister (the little coleman types) was longer than i can get from a gallon of gas using the Honda 2HP - i can get about one-ish hour per quart of gas (equals a range of about four hours) running the honda at 1/2 throttle.
5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range.
i agree Tom. just a bit of saw-all work to the rear cockpit locker followed by some fiberglass one would be set!
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Fri, 1/4/13, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Jim and Dave,
The info you passed along about LEHR engines is quite valuable for an M-17 owner, since the 5 hp long shaft would be a nice fit. I have stored up to a dozen canisters at a time onboard my various boats for stove and lantern fuel, and it's easy to find cubbyholes for them. It's a long shot, but it's possible that the 5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range. Certainly one or two 1 gal steel tanks would fit, and a bunch of quart cylinders.
Tom
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:06 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
sadly the LEHR 2.5 is _not_ available in a 20" shaft ... only the 5HP has 15" and 20" shaft options.
i've talked to the LEHR reps a few times last year about the need for a 20" shaft in the 2.5HP for the small boat market ... they have no interest and have 'plans to make the long shaft version.' if a 2.5 20" came out i would quickly get two - one for S17 AIR BORN and a second for M15 JUSTUS ... and maybe a third for Moore 24 HAPPY THOUGHTS.
the hope is enough folks ask for a 20" 2.5 they may change plans ... but the bean counters likely don't see sailboats as a market for the motors (i bet they only see inflatable dinghies).
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Thu, 1/3/13, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=1959942 It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may
be worth
it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale.
I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions.
I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines.
Thanks.
Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL
On 05-Jan- 13 8:27 AM, Howard Audsley wrote: Hi Howard, You make an excellent point, but since everything we do while sailing is dangerous to some degree, you have to learn to live with, and respect the devil you have on board. When we sailed in Europe our Tripp-Lentsch had a Universal Atomic 4 gasoline engine. Our German friends were appalled that we lived so dangerously - using gasoline on a boat. Of course they all had diesel engines. There were no taxes on diesel fuel on the waterways, but almost all of them cooked with propane. We used alcohol or kerosene in our PRIMUS stove when cooking. So, it's just a matter of being very careful with the types fuels you use on a boat. Propane is heavier than air; but so are gasoline fumes; which is why boats with gasoline engines have to have a bilge blower to get rid of potential fumes. Both lie in the bilge waiting for a spark. After years of cooking with alcohol, we were going to convert our stove to propane for the hotter flame and faster cooking; eliminating the need for pre-heating the burners; but that was a project in consideration (where to put the propane tank and how do we vent it to keep any propane out of the ship if a connection should leak?) On our M15, we used a restaurant-type single burner propane stove for cooking. When you turned the burner off the propane bottle was also disconnected from the burner. We were very happy with that solution. Connie ex M15 #400
The big advantage I can see is that propane, as a fuel, does not contain ethanol that will attract water or separate over time, leading to a wrecked engine. They mention a lot of advantages, but seem to have left that one out.
On the other hand, propane explosions are spectacular and may be one of the biggest dangers cruising boaters face. Propane is heavier than air and will sink, filling the container. On an M15 or M17, that would be the entire boat to the sheer line. If you had that much propane on board, you would want it in a contained propane locker set to drain overboard. Even the little guys. With propane, you don't get second chances.
Most marinas are not setup to handle/offer propane, but probably could be, or else venders would likely begin to offer the tank trade stations. On the other hand, based on how I normally use a motor, which is to get in and out of the marina, I could function on a 5# tank all summer long.
Interesting concept.
On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Tom Jenkins wrote:
It seems unlikely that a 4-cycle running on propane would get more hrs/gallon than a gas engine, because propane cars typically get a little worse mileage than gas vehicles (fewer BTU/gal). I think I read a review of the LEHR that suggested one hour per quart at 1/2 throttle (1/2 hour at full throttle) is about right, so we are in the same ballpark. The interesting thing is that canisters of propane can be purchased widely (sporting goods stores, big box retailers, and some markets), whereas gasoline needs a gas station.
Frankly, I have rather extensive up-close-and-personal propane experience, having backpacked many one and two-gallon tanks into the high country to run a winter tent-based research operation. It is much less scary than gasoline, and can be used for light, heat, cooking, and maybe a jury-rigged jet pack :-)
On Jan 4, 2013, at 3:59 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
I agree that for the M17 the 5HP LEHR becomes a real option.
At the Annapolis Sailboat Show in October I talked with the LEHR rep about the motors (mostly pushing for a long shaft 2.5HP) and asked what the range for the 2.5HP. I can't remember the exact running time the rep quoted (running time, hours, is a better measure than distance IMO). i do remember that the range with a one pound canister (the little coleman types) was longer than i can get from a gallon of gas using the Honda 2HP - i can get about one-ish hour per quart of gas (equals a range of about four hours) running the honda at 1/2 throttle.
5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range. i agree Tom. just a bit of saw-all work to the rear cockpit locker followed by some fiberglass one would be set!
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Fri, 1/4/13, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Jim and Dave,
The info you passed along about LEHR engines is quite valuable for an M-17 owner, since the 5 hp long shaft would be a nice fit. I have stored up to a dozen canisters at a time onboard my various boats for stove and lantern fuel, and it's easy to find cubbyholes for them. It's a long shot, but it's possible that the 5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range. Certainly one or two 1 gal steel tanks would fit, and a bunch of quart cylinders.
Tom
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:06 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
sadly the LEHR 2.5 is _not_ available in a 20" shaft ... only the 5HP has 15" and 20" shaft options. i've talked to the LEHR reps a few times last year about the need for a 20" shaft in the 2.5HP for the small boat market ... they have no interest and have 'plans to make the long shaft version.' if a 2.5 20" came out i would quickly get two - one for S17 AIR BORN and a second for M15 JUSTUS ... and maybe a third for Moore 24 HAPPY THOUGHTS. the hope is enough folks ask for a 20" 2.5 they may change plans ... but the bean counters likely don't see sailboats as a market for the motors (i bet they only see inflatable dinghies).
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Thu, 1/3/13, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=1959942 It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may be worth it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale.
I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions.
I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines.
Thanks.
Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL
Well said Connie, Any form of energy is unsafe in some way. You make it safer by understanding its limitations and paying attention. That said, we have had very good luck and been very happy with our non-pressurized alcohol Origos. Yes, they may be not quite as hot as a propane burner and take a minute more, but c'mon, we're on sailboats.... Think about it. If you're in a hurry.... You might be doing it wrong. Rik On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
On 05-Jan- 13 8:27 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
Hi Howard,
You make an excellent point, but since everything we do while sailing is dangerous to some degree, you have to learn to live with, and respect the devil you have on board.
When we sailed in Europe our Tripp-Lentsch had a Universal Atomic 4 gasoline engine.
Our German friends were appalled that we lived so dangerously - using gasoline on a boat.
Of course they all had diesel engines. There were no taxes on diesel fuel on the waterways, but almost all of them cooked with propane.
We used alcohol or kerosene in our PRIMUS stove when cooking.
So, it's just a matter of being very careful with the types fuels you use on a boat. Propane is heavier than air; but so are gasoline fumes; which is why boats with gasoline engines have to have a bilge blower to get rid of potential fumes. Both lie in the bilge waiting for a spark.
After years of cooking with alcohol, we were going to convert our stove to propane for the hotter flame and faster cooking; eliminating the need for pre-heating the burners; but that was a project in consideration (where to put the propane tank and how do we vent it to keep any propane out of the ship if a connection should leak?)
On our M15, we used a restaurant-type single burner propane stove for cooking. When you turned the burner off the propane bottle was also disconnected from the burner. We were very happy with that solution.
Connie ex M15 #400
The big advantage I can see is that propane, as a fuel, does not contain ethanol that will attract water or separate over time, leading to a wrecked engine. They mention a lot of advantages, but seem to have left that one out.
On the other hand, propane explosions are spectacular and may be one of the biggest dangers cruising boaters face. Propane is heavier than air and will sink, filling the container. On an M15 or M17, that would be the entire boat to the sheer line. If you had that much propane on board, you would want it in a contained propane locker set to drain overboard. Even the little guys. With propane, you don't get second chances.
Most marinas are not setup to handle/offer propane, but probably could be, or else venders would likely begin to offer the tank trade stations. On the other hand, based on how I normally use a motor, which is to get in and out of the marina, I could function on a 5# tank all summer long.
Interesting concept.
On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:42 PM, Tom Jenkins wrote:
It seems unlikely that a 4-cycle running on propane would get more
hrs/gallon than a gas engine, because propane cars typically get a little worse mileage than gas vehicles (fewer BTU/gal). I think I read a review of the LEHR that suggested one hour per quart at 1/2 throttle (1/2 hour at full throttle) is about right, so we are in the same ballpark. The interesting thing is that canisters of propane can be purchased widely (sporting goods stores, big box retailers, and some markets), whereas gasoline needs a gas station.
Frankly, I have rather extensive up-close-and-personal propane experience, having backpacked many one and two-gallon tanks into the high country to run a winter tent-based research operation. It is much less scary than gasoline, and can be used for light, heat, cooking, and maybe a jury-rigged jet pack :-)
On Jan 4, 2013, at 3:59 PM, W David Scobie wrote:
I agree that for the M17 the 5HP LEHR becomes a real option.
At the Annapolis Sailboat Show in October I talked with the LEHR rep about the motors (mostly pushing for a long shaft 2.5HP) and asked what the range for the 2.5HP. I can't remember the exact running time the rep quoted (running time, hours, is a better measure than distance IMO). i do remember that the range with a one pound canister (the little coleman types) was longer than i can get from a gallon of gas using the Honda 2HP - i can get about one-ish hour per quart of gas (equals a range of about four hours) running the honda at 1/2 throttle.
5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long)
would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range.
i agree Tom. just a bit of saw-all work to the rear cockpit locker followed by some fiberglass one would be set!
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Fri, 1/4/13, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Jim and Dave,
The info you passed along about LEHR engines is quite valuable for an M-17 owner, since the 5 hp long shaft would be a nice fit. I have stored up to a dozen canisters at a time onboard my various boats for stove and lantern fuel, and it's easy to find cubbyholes for them. It's a long shot, but it's possible that the 5 gallon Lite Cylinder horizontal tank (12.4" dia x 18" long) would fit in the aft wet locker, so you could have a gas drain and a route for the hose to the motor, and a lot of range. Certainly one or two 1 gal steel tanks would fit, and a bunch of quart cylinders.
Tom
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:06 AM, W David Scobie wrote:
sadly the LEHR 2.5 is _not_ available in a 20" shaft
... only the 5HP has 15" and 20" shaft options.
i've talked to the LEHR reps a few times last year
about the need for a 20" shaft in the 2.5HP for the small boat market ... they have no interest and have 'plans to make the long shaft version.' if a 2.5 20" came out i would quickly get two - one for S17 AIR BORN and a second for M15 JUSTUS ... and maybe a third for Moore 24 HAPPY THOUGHTS.
the hope is enough folks ask for a 20" 2.5 they may
change plans ... but the bean counters likely don't see sailboats as a market for the motors (i bet they only see inflatable dinghies).
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Thu, 1/3/13, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi Tom, > > Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard > engine. It is also > available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp: > > http://www.defender.com/**product.jsp?path=-1|215570|** > 1794283|1964825&id=1959942<http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C215570%7C1794283%7C1964825&id=1959942> > It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may > be worth
it to me. It > is light weight, requires no winterizing. It > has no
carburetor, and the > propane can't spill. I guess it could leak > and explode
if stored in a > cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable > risk
compared to flamable > gasoline. I am not planning to but anything > before
spring though. Maybe a > competitive model will show up, or a newer version, > or a
sale. > > I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal > conditions. But wondering > about windy conditions. > > I am very interested in any thoughts or info about > the
propane engines. > > Thanks. > > Jim Dahlquist (M15) > jim@dhlqst.com > Palatine, IL >
-- "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
Jim Cost is not out of line with similar HP rated engines in fact might be competitive, Looks interesting as Propane is easily available though not a t dockside or in Marinas. Question as to miles per what Gallons? Is there a cost benefit? George We can not control the Wind But we can adjust our Sails -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dahlquist Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:18 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards Hi Tom, Here is an add for a Lehr 2.5HP propane outboard engine. It is also available in long shaft (20"), and 5hp: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|215570|1794283|1964825&id=195994 2 It takes a good chunk of money, but I think it may be worth it to me. It is light weight, requires no winterizing. It has no carburetor, and the propane can't spill. I guess it could leak and explode if stored in a cabinet, but I think that is a low and manageable risk compared to flamable gasoline. I am not planning to but anything before spring though. Maybe a competitive model will show up, or a newer version, or a sale. I am thinking 2.5hp will be enough in normal conditions. But wondering about windy conditions. I am very interested in any thoughts or info about the propane engines. Thanks. Jim Dahlquist (M15) jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL ===== On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote:
Jim,
Unless one frequents waters where the winds and currents require more than a few miles of motoring at speeds over 3 knots, I suspect that my Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard is about as green and practical as you are going to get for at least several years. I carry an extra battery, plus a small inverter to run the unit off my main battery, but I have never not used either backup for lake or bay travel. A much cheaper solution is a regular trolling motor, but the lead-acid battery that powers them is much less efficient than my lithium-ion in terms of energy stored vs. weight.
As for the internal combustion engine, I hate the smell, noise, occasional unreliability, and the care one must use to avoid explosion, but, if one must have the extra energy stored onboard, propane holds little advantage over gasoline in carbon emissions (2.3 carbon atoms per hydrogen atom vs. about 2.6). Methane is a marginally better (4 H per C), but no one would contemplate bringing liquified natural gas aboard a small sailboat.
I know that a few other boaters use Torqeedos or trolling motors, so it would be nice to hear from you out there about your experiences so everyone could use the information. I generally sail when the slightest breeze is up, so I have not probed the distance limits of my gear, but someone might have better data that all of us could profit from.
As a final comment, I have noticed that sailboaters can run out of gas through miscalculation, and their motors can quit due to dirty fuel or the like, while electric motors can be recharged with a solar cell if one has the time--my point being that chosing one or the other for range vs reliability, etc., requires balancing a number of variables.
Tom Jenkins Montgomery 17 Scintilla
On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:08 PM, jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
No question that is right. So I will suffer my present motor for another year. I have plenty more to do. I have noticed some small 4-cycles that weigh less than my 20 year old 60 pound 2-cycle. Maybe by then there will technology to enable me to forget about combustion altogether. Miracles have been alluded to.
JimD
Sent from Windows Mail
From: August Trometer Sent: November 24, 2012 4:09 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Propane Conversion kits for Outboard outboards
The common generator for that is the Honda (4 stroke).
Sent from my iPhone August & Susan Trometer 239 849 4681 North Fort Myers, FL atrometer@gmail.com
On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Rik Sandberg <sanderico1@gmail.com> wrote:
Jim,
Don't think that's gonna work too well. On a two stroke, the fuel is also the lubricant (gas and oil mixed) I'm not sure how you would get the vaporous propane to carry the oil into the engine.
Every propane generator conversion I've seen has a 4 stroke engine. Lubricant is in the crankcase. Big difference.
I think if you want a propane outboard, the only way it's gonna work is to start with a 4 stroke. Hopefully somebody can prove me wrong.
Rik
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jim Dahlquist <jimdahlquist@gmail.com wrote:
I have seen a video on youtube showing how to convert a portable generator from gasoline to propane. Now I would like to explore the idea of converting my old Suzuki DT4 2-cycle outboard if I could find a compatible kit. I think this would be cleaner and would not require any winter maintenance. So far I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe because generators are way too popular right now. But I wanted to at least get this idea on the list.
BTW: It appears that searching the archives requires downloading the full data first. Is that correct?
Jim Dahlquist jimdahlquist@gmail.com
--
"Since this is an era when many people are concerned about 'fairness' and 'social justice,' what is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" .. Thomas Sowell
participants (10)
-
Conbert Benneck -
George R. Iemmolo -
Howard Audsley -
Jim Dahlquist -
jimdahlquist＠gmail.com
-
Joe Murphy -
John Schinnerer -
Rik Sandberg -
Tom Jenkins -
W David Scobie