Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks! -- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working jib. I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will add a genoa track for it soon. Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks!
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Thanks Tyler! I remember it from the Lake Pleasant Ran Tan. I think you walked away from us on Seas the Day! Of course my extra xxxx lbs. didn't help our performance much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Tyler Backman <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working jib.
I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will add a genoa track for it soon.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks!
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Hi Henry, The drifter on CornDog is 170% in 3/4oz nylon. It was made to be flown with the luff "hanked" onto the furled genoa with bead parrells (short loops made of a wire with beads strung onto them so they can roll up and down the furled sail). I found in practice that the parrels just hung loose, even going upwind, and served no real purpose, so I eliminated them. Flying the sail from the bow pulpit is unconventional, but the sail was unfortunately built too short in the luff, which made it possible to fly it form there, and doing so allowed some working room between the drifter and the furled genoa. This allows the sheet to pass between them. I have also flown both sails at once, poled out on opposite sides as a version of twin head sails. The drifter is "tacked" to the pulpit with a web loop. All that being said, I use the sail very little. Where I sail, light winds don't seem to last very long. They are either in the process of dying clear out, or building and soon beyond the wind range suitable for the drifter. There are exceptions of course, so it gets a little use, but if I was to do it all again, I would opt for a cruising spinnaker instead. A better performing downwind sail would be more useful than the drifter, which, when used as an upwind sail, isn't any better than my 150 genoa, unless you're trying to sail in winds so light that the genoa won't stay open. Larry Y On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tyler!
I remember it from the Lake Pleasant Ran Tan. I think you walked away from us on Seas the Day! Of course my extra xxxx lbs. didn't help our performance much.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Tyler Backman <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working jib.
I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will add a genoa track for it soon.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks!
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
I've used a drifter on both an M15 and M17 to good advantage. I'll have to measure the sail, but Larry's right, when the wind builds, pull that dude down. I probably max out 8 to 10 knots. I found it advantageous to have two hanks at the top of the sail and hook a down-haul to the second one (maybe a foot or 18 inches lower). If you have only one top hank, the sail will jam when you try to douse it. t On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Henry,
The drifter on CornDog is 170% in 3/4oz nylon. It was made to be flown with the luff "hanked" onto the furled genoa with bead parrells (short loops made of a wire with beads strung onto them so they can roll up and down the furled sail). I found in practice that the parrels just hung loose, even going upwind, and served no real purpose, so I eliminated them. Flying the sail from the bow pulpit is unconventional, but the sail was unfortunately built too short in the luff, which made it possible to fly it form there, and doing so allowed some working room between the drifter and the furled genoa. This allows the sheet to pass between them. I have also flown both sails at once, poled out on opposite sides as a version of twin head sails. The drifter is "tacked" to the pulpit with a web loop.
All that being said, I use the sail very little. Where I sail, light winds don't seem to last very long. They are either in the process of dying clear out, or building and soon beyond the wind range suitable for the drifter. There are exceptions of course, so it gets a little use, but if I was to do it all again, I would opt for a cruising spinnaker instead. A better performing downwind sail would be more useful than the drifter, which, when used as an upwind sail, isn't any better than my 150 genoa, unless you're trying to sail in winds so light that the genoa won't stay open.
Larry Y
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tyler!
I remember it from the Lake Pleasant Ran Tan. I think you walked away from us on Seas the Day! Of course my extra xxxx lbs. didn't help our performance much.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Tyler Backman <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working jib.
I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will add a genoa track for it soon.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks!
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Thanks Tom, Larry, Tyler, Keith, and all who responded to my question about drifters. I would like to get one before this season ends. I'm curious about what the actual measurements are for your existing drifters and what the relative sizes (150%, 170%, etc) are? A related question for you experts out there (that includes everyone but me): Does the % size of a genoa or jib refer to the ratio of the LP to the boat's J measurement or does it refer to the ratio of the sail's area to the 100% fore triangle? I've seen several sailmakers' sites that define it as a function of the J measurement, which is 6.58 ft according to Sailrite's data base. This makes sense to me when talking about overlapping genoas but what about smaller jibs? You could have a number of different sails with the same LP measurement but that vary greatly in luff length. Their areas would be quite different but they would have the same LP percentage. Take a storm jib sized sail versus a blade jib; they theoretically could have the same LP measurement but there would be a great difference in their total square footage. Someone set me straight, please! On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've used a drifter on both an M15 and M17 to good advantage. I'll have to measure the sail, but Larry's right, when the wind builds, pull that dude down. I probably max out 8 to 10 knots. I found it advantageous to have two hanks at the top of the sail and hook a down-haul to the second one (maybe a foot or 18 inches lower). If you have only one top hank, the sail will jam when you try to douse it. t
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Henry,
The drifter on CornDog is 170% in 3/4oz nylon. It was made to be flown with the luff "hanked" onto the furled genoa with bead parrells (short loops made of a wire with beads strung onto them so they can roll up and down the furled sail). I found in practice that the parrels just hung loose, even going upwind, and served no real purpose, so I eliminated them. Flying the sail from the bow pulpit is unconventional, but the sail was unfortunately built too short in the luff, which made it possible to fly it form there, and doing so allowed some working room between the drifter and the furled genoa. This allows the sheet to pass between them. I have also flown both sails at once, poled out on opposite sides as a version of twin head sails. The drifter is "tacked" to the pulpit with a web loop.
All that being said, I use the sail very little. Where I sail, light winds don't seem to last very long. They are either in the process of dying clear out, or building and soon beyond the wind range suitable for the drifter. There are exceptions of course, so it gets a little use, but if I was to do it all again, I would opt for a cruising spinnaker instead. A better performing downwind sail would be more useful than the drifter, which, when used as an upwind sail, isn't any better than my 150 genoa, unless you're trying to sail in winds so light that the genoa won't stay open.
Larry Y
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tyler!
I remember it from the Lake Pleasant Ran Tan. I think you walked away from us on Seas the Day! Of course my extra xxxx lbs. didn't help our performance much.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Tyler Backman <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working jib.
I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will add a genoa track for it soon.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks!
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
My new drifter is on the boat, Henry, but I'm sure it's the same size as my old one, which is out in the shop. I'll measure it today. tom On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tom, Larry, Tyler, Keith, and all who responded to my question about drifters. I would like to get one before this season ends. I'm curious about what the actual measurements are for your existing drifters and what the relative sizes (150%, 170%, etc) are?
A related question for you experts out there (that includes everyone but me): Does the % size of a genoa or jib refer to the ratio of the LP to the boat's J measurement or does it refer to the ratio of the sail's area to the 100% fore triangle? I've seen several sailmakers' sites that define it as a function of the J measurement, which is 6.58 ft according to Sailrite's data base. This makes sense to me when talking about overlapping genoas but what about smaller jibs? You could have a number of different sails with the same LP measurement but that vary greatly in luff length. Their areas would be quite different but they would have the same LP percentage. Take a storm jib sized sail versus a blade jib; they theoretically could have the same LP measurement but there would be a great difference in their total square footage.
Someone set me straight, please!
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've used a drifter on both an M15 and M17 to good advantage. I'll have to measure the sail, but Larry's right, when the wind builds, pull that dude down. I probably max out 8 to 10 knots. I found it advantageous to have two hanks at the top of the sail and hook a down-haul to the second one (maybe a foot or 18 inches lower). If you have only one top hank, the sail will jam when you try to douse it. t
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Henry,
The drifter on CornDog is 170% in 3/4oz nylon. It was made to be flown with the luff "hanked" onto the furled genoa with bead parrells (short loops made of a wire with beads strung onto them so they can roll up and down the furled sail). I found in practice that the parrels just hung loose, even going upwind, and served no real purpose, so I eliminated them. Flying the sail from the bow pulpit is unconventional, but the sail was unfortunately built too short in the luff, which made it possible to fly it form there, and doing so allowed some working room between the drifter and the furled genoa. This allows the sheet to pass between them. I have also flown both sails at once, poled out on opposite sides as a version of twin head sails. The drifter is "tacked" to the pulpit with a web loop.
All that being said, I use the sail very little. Where I sail, light winds don't seem to last very long. They are either in the process of dying clear out, or building and soon beyond the wind range suitable for the drifter. There are exceptions of course, so it gets a little use, but if I was to do it all again, I would opt for a cruising spinnaker instead. A better performing downwind sail would be more useful than the drifter, which, when used as an upwind sail, isn't any better than my 150 genoa, unless you're trying to sail in winds so light that the genoa won't stay open.
Larry Y
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tyler!
I remember it from the Lake Pleasant Ran Tan. I think you walked away from us on Seas the Day! Of course my extra xxxx lbs. didn't help our performance much.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Tyler Backman < casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working jib.
I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will add a genoa track for it soon.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks!
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Henry: details on the size of a headsail - http://www.jasperandbailey.com/tech/headsails.html -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 AIR BORN - www.sagemarine.com On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tom, Larry, Tyler, Keith, and all who responded to my question about drifters. I would like to get one before this season ends. I'm curious about what the actual measurements are for your existing drifters and what the relative sizes (150%, 170%, etc) are?
A related question for you experts out there (that includes everyone but me): Does the % size of a genoa or jib refer to the ratio of the LP to the boat's J measurement or does it refer to the ratio of the sail's area to the 100% fore triangle? I've seen several sailmakers' sites that define it as a function of the J measurement, which is 6.58 ft according to Sailrite's data base. This makes sense to me when talking about overlapping genoas but what about smaller jibs? You could have a number of different sails with the same LP measurement but that vary greatly in luff length. Their areas would be quite different but they would have the same LP percentage. Take a storm jib sized sail versus a blade jib; they theoretically could have the same LP measurement but there would be a great difference in their total square footage.
Someone set me straight, please!-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Thx Dave! ~~~_/)~~~ Gary Sent from my iPhone :-)
On Aug 4, 2015, at 8:32 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Henry:
details on the size of a headsail -
http://www.jasperandbailey.com/tech/headsails.html
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 AIR BORN - www.sagemarine.com
On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tom, Larry, Tyler, Keith, and all who responded to my question about drifters. I would like to get one before this season ends. I'm curious about what the actual measurements are for your existing drifters and what the relative sizes (150%, 170%, etc) are?
A related question for you experts out there (that includes everyone but me): Does the % size of a genoa or jib refer to the ratio of the LP to the boat's J measurement or does it refer to the ratio of the sail's area to the 100% fore triangle? I've seen several sailmakers' sites that define it as a function of the J measurement, which is 6.58 ft according to Sailrite's data base. This makes sense to me when talking about overlapping genoas but what about smaller jibs? You could have a number of different sails with the same LP measurement but that vary greatly in luff length. Their areas would be quite different but they would have the same LP percentage. Take a storm jib sized sail versus a blade jib; they theoretically could have the same LP measurement but there would be a great difference in their total square footage.
Someone set me straight, please!-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Thanks Dave, I had always assumed that the percentages were area relative to the area of the fore-triangle. Boy was I wrong! I'm surprised the percentages make no account for luff length, since high wind headsails often have a shorter luff than the headstay, and some light air downwind sails have a longer one. My drifter was cut too tall and I had to get the luff cut down, but apparently that didn't reduce it's measured size as a percentage. Whatever sailplan Eliot-Pattison is using for the M15 is way off from what my boat is, I had to cut about 3" off both the main and headsails to make them fit. Surprisingly that doesn't seem to be hurting me any in the races against the newer M15s, but I suspect my boat is also a bit lighter because it has the absolute minimum on all options/features. Tyler '81 M15 #157 Davis, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Scobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 8:32:25 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Drifter Sail Henry: details on the size of a headsail - http://www.jasperandbailey.com/tech/headsails.html
Tyler: there is variation in the M15 standing rigs. some are different do to changes made through multiple owners (ie, close encounters with trees), and i've found there to be slight differences between the boats over the years. The new sails the Glessers received from E/P were also to 'tall' for their boat. the closest thing available for outlining the 'standard rig' for the M15 - http://www.msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b15measure/b15measure1.gif i've built a good number replacement M15 masts for folks. for each one i have the owner make detailed measurements to assure the new standing rig will fit their sails. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 AIR BORN - www.sagemarine.com On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:38 PM, <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
Thanks Dave, I had always assumed that the percentages were area relative to the area of the fore-triangle. Boy was I wrong!
I'm surprised the percentages make no account for luff length, since high wind headsails often have a shorter luff than the headstay, and some light air downwind sails have a longer one.
My drifter was cut too tall and I had to get the luff cut down, but apparently that didn't reduce it's measured size as a percentage.
Whatever sailplan Eliot-Pattison is using for the M15 is way off from what my boat is, I had to cut about 3" off both the main and headsails to make them fit. Surprisingly that doesn't seem to be hurting me any in the races against the newer M15s, but I suspect my boat is also a bit lighter because it has the absolute minimum on all options/features.
Tyler '81 M15 #157 Davis, CA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Scobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 8:32:25 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Drifter Sail
Henry:
details on the size of a headsail -
There IS a true and official sailplan for the M-15; it's never been changed. Tyler- all sails are measured by their LP, which is measured by making a perpendicular off the forestay. We then draw a line parallel to the forestay that goes thru the point where the forward edge of the mast intersects with the imaginary deck crown. Ca'nt be done accurately on a boat because the house is in the way, but easy on a sailplan; we simply take our little pencil and extend the deck crown aft to the proper place. The distance between these two lines is called the LP. A 150% LP is 150% of the measurement if the clew goes thru the 150% line, hi or low. Nothing to do with the foretriangle, and nothing to do with heights. A storm jib is usually in the area of 20 or 30%, and usually the tack is a couple of feet off the deck to reduce the chance of getting wiped out by waves, and the head is not very high, in order to reduce the area and lower the C.E. They do an amazing job considering their area. I have both a storm jib and a heavy weather jib (about 40%, w/o looking it up) and neither have ever been used. The larger of the two is there only in the event that I someday have a 30 knot headwind in a race. If this happens, I'll stomp everyone that doesn't have one! Whooppee! A good thing about storm jibs is that they rarely wear out because they aren't used that much. Usually. They should be made of heavy fabric with lots of patches in the corners. if you have a storm jib and have never hoisted it, better do it to be sure that you have a place to sheet it. On the M-15 the storm jib of the sailplan should sheet to the regular spot, but you'd better check. You can adjust the sheeting by lengthening or shortening the height of the sail; in other words lengthen or shorten the length of the pennnant. -----Original Message----- From: casioqv@usermail.com Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 11:38 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Drifter Sail Thanks Dave, I had always assumed that the percentages were area relative to the area of the fore-triangle. Boy was I wrong! I'm surprised the percentages make no account for luff length, since high wind headsails often have a shorter luff than the headstay, and some light air downwind sails have a longer one. My drifter was cut too tall and I had to get the luff cut down, but apparently that didn't reduce it's measured size as a percentage. Whatever sailplan Eliot-Pattison is using for the M15 is way off from what my boat is, I had to cut about 3" off both the main and headsails to make them fit. Surprisingly that doesn't seem to be hurting me any in the races against the newer M15s, but I suspect my boat is also a bit lighter because it has the absolute minimum on all options/features. Tyler '81 M15 #157 Davis, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Scobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 8:32:25 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Drifter Sail Henry: details on the size of a headsail - http://www.jasperandbailey.com/tech/headsails.html
Henry, I measured my drifter (from my M17). Luff: 21.5' (tack to head) Foot: 11' (tack to clew) Leech: 20' (head to clew) Probably 3/4 or 1/2 oz. sailcloth Closing in on 140% or so. This is a hanked on sail--different from Larry's which is accommodated on a rolled headsail with beads. Two hanks at the head, mebbe 6-8 inches apart. Light weight running rigging. 1/8 inch? Good luck. t On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tom, Larry, Tyler, Keith, and all who responded to my question about drifters. I would like to get one before this season ends. I'm curious about what the actual measurements are for your existing drifters and what the relative sizes (150%, 170%, etc) are?
A related question for you experts out there (that includes everyone but me): Does the % size of a genoa or jib refer to the ratio of the LP to the boat's J measurement or does it refer to the ratio of the sail's area to the 100% fore triangle? I've seen several sailmakers' sites that define it as a function of the J measurement, which is 6.58 ft according to Sailrite's data base. This makes sense to me when talking about overlapping genoas but what about smaller jibs? You could have a number of different sails with the same LP measurement but that vary greatly in luff length. Their areas would be quite different but they would have the same LP percentage. Take a storm jib sized sail versus a blade jib; they theoretically could have the same LP measurement but there would be a great difference in their total square footage.
Someone set me straight, please!
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've used a drifter on both an M15 and M17 to good advantage. I'll have to measure the sail, but Larry's right, when the wind builds, pull that dude down. I probably max out 8 to 10 knots. I found it advantageous to have two hanks at the top of the sail and hook a down-haul to the second one (maybe a foot or 18 inches lower). If you have only one top hank, the sail will jam when you try to douse it. t
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Henry,
The drifter on CornDog is 170% in 3/4oz nylon. It was made to be flown with the luff "hanked" onto the furled genoa with bead parrells (short loops made of a wire with beads strung onto them so they can roll up and down the furled sail). I found in practice that the parrels just hung loose, even going upwind, and served no real purpose, so I eliminated them. Flying the sail from the bow pulpit is unconventional, but the sail was unfortunately built too short in the luff, which made it possible to fly it form there, and doing so allowed some working room between the drifter and the furled genoa. This allows the sheet to pass between them. I have also flown both sails at once, poled out on opposite sides as a version of twin head sails. The drifter is "tacked" to the pulpit with a web loop.
All that being said, I use the sail very little. Where I sail, light winds don't seem to last very long. They are either in the process of dying clear out, or building and soon beyond the wind range suitable for the drifter. There are exceptions of course, so it gets a little use, but if I was to do it all again, I would opt for a cruising spinnaker instead. A better performing downwind sail would be more useful than the drifter, which, when used as an upwind sail, isn't any better than my 150 genoa, unless you're trying to sail in winds so light that the genoa won't stay open.
Larry Y
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tyler!
I remember it from the Lake Pleasant Ran Tan. I think you walked away from us on Seas the Day! Of course my extra xxxx lbs. didn't help our performance much.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Tyler Backman < casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working jib.
I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will add a genoa track for it soon.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks!
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
I take back the sailcloth weight for the drifter, Henry. I found the invoice from Don Yager and he built the sail using 1.5 oz. sailcloth. t On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
Henry, I measured my drifter (from my M17).
Luff: 21.5' (tack to head) Foot: 11' (tack to clew) Leech: 20' (head to clew)
Probably 3/4 or 1/2 oz. sailcloth Closing in on 140% or so.
This is a hanked on sail--different from Larry's which is accommodated on a rolled headsail with beads. Two hanks at the head, mebbe 6-8 inches apart.
Light weight running rigging. 1/8 inch? Good luck. t
On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tom, Larry, Tyler, Keith, and all who responded to my question about drifters. I would like to get one before this season ends. I'm curious about what the actual measurements are for your existing drifters and what the relative sizes (150%, 170%, etc) are?
A related question for you experts out there (that includes everyone but me): Does the % size of a genoa or jib refer to the ratio of the LP to the boat's J measurement or does it refer to the ratio of the sail's area to the 100% fore triangle? I've seen several sailmakers' sites that define it as a function of the J measurement, which is 6.58 ft according to Sailrite's data base. This makes sense to me when talking about overlapping genoas but what about smaller jibs? You could have a number of different sails with the same LP measurement but that vary greatly in luff length. Their areas would be quite different but they would have the same LP percentage. Take a storm jib sized sail versus a blade jib; they theoretically could have the same LP measurement but there would be a great difference in their total square footage.
Someone set me straight, please!
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've used a drifter on both an M15 and M17 to good advantage. I'll have to measure the sail, but Larry's right, when the wind builds, pull that dude down. I probably max out 8 to 10 knots. I found it advantageous to have two hanks at the top of the sail and hook a down-haul to the second one (maybe a foot or 18 inches lower). If you have only one top hank, the sail will jam when you try to douse it. t
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Henry,
The drifter on CornDog is 170% in 3/4oz nylon. It was made to be flown with the luff "hanked" onto the furled genoa with bead parrells (short loops made of a wire with beads strung onto them so they can roll up and down the furled sail). I found in practice that the parrels just hung loose, even going upwind, and served no real purpose, so I eliminated them. Flying the sail from the bow pulpit is unconventional, but the sail was unfortunately built too short in the luff, which made it possible to fly it form there, and doing so allowed some working room between the drifter and the furled genoa. This allows the sheet to pass between them. I have also flown both sails at once, poled out on opposite sides as a version of twin head sails. The drifter is "tacked" to the pulpit with a web loop.
All that being said, I use the sail very little. Where I sail, light winds don't seem to last very long. They are either in the process of dying clear out, or building and soon beyond the wind range suitable for the drifter. There are exceptions of course, so it gets a little use, but if I was to do it all again, I would opt for a cruising spinnaker instead. A better performing downwind sail would be more useful than the drifter, which, when used as an upwind sail, isn't any better than my 150 genoa, unless you're trying to sail in winds so light that the genoa won't stay open.
Larry Y
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tyler!
I remember it from the Lake Pleasant Ran Tan. I think you walked away from us on Seas the Day! Of course my extra xxxx lbs. didn't help our performance much.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Tyler Backman < casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working jib.
I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will add a genoa track for it soon.
Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"
> On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com
wrote:
> > Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the > archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter > that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, > Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a > spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? > What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? > Thanks! > > > -- > Henry > https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Thanks for all the responses about a light air head sail. I have ordered a 160% drifter with a luff of 21'. It will be made of 1.5oz nylon and will have Wichard-style one handed jib hanks to attach to the forestay as well as a pre-stretched rope luff so it can be set flying for downwind work. Can't wait to try it out! Henry ps -- Tom, thanks for your measurements. I think they work out to about 160% rather than 140. On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 1:31 PM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I take back the sailcloth weight for the drifter, Henry. I found the invoice from Don Yager and he built the sail using 1.5 oz. sailcloth. t
On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
Henry, I measured my drifter (from my M17).
Luff: 21.5' (tack to head) Foot: 11' (tack to clew) Leech: 20' (head to clew)
Probably 3/4 or 1/2 oz. sailcloth Closing in on 140% or so.
This is a hanked on sail--different from Larry's which is accommodated on a rolled headsail with beads. Two hanks at the head, mebbe 6-8 inches apart.
Light weight running rigging. 1/8 inch? Good luck. t
On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Tom, Larry, Tyler, Keith, and all who responded to my question about drifters. I would like to get one before this season ends. I'm curious about what the actual measurements are for your existing drifters and what the relative sizes (150%, 170%, etc) are?
A related question for you experts out there (that includes everyone but me): Does the % size of a genoa or jib refer to the ratio of the LP to the boat's J measurement or does it refer to the ratio of the sail's area to the 100% fore triangle? I've seen several sailmakers' sites that define it as a function of the J measurement, which is 6.58 ft according to Sailrite's data base. This makes sense to me when talking about overlapping genoas but what about smaller jibs? You could have a number of different sails with the same LP measurement but that vary greatly in luff length. Their areas would be quite different but they would have the same LP percentage. Take a storm jib sized sail versus a blade jib; they theoretically could have the same LP measurement but there would be a great difference in their total square footage.
Someone set me straight, please!
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've used a drifter on both an M15 and M17 to good advantage. I'll have to measure the sail, but Larry's right, when the wind builds, pull that dude down. I probably max out 8 to 10 knots. I found it advantageous to have two hanks at the top of the sail and hook a down-haul to the second one (maybe a foot or 18 inches lower). If you have only one top hank, the sail will jam when you try to douse it. t
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Henry,
The drifter on CornDog is 170% in 3/4oz nylon. It was made to be flown with the luff "hanked" onto the furled genoa with bead parrells (short loops made of a wire with beads strung onto them so they can roll up and down the furled sail). I found in practice that the parrels just hung loose, even going upwind, and served no real purpose, so I eliminated them. Flying the sail from the bow pulpit is unconventional, but the sail was unfortunately built too short in the luff, which made it possible to fly it form there, and doing so allowed some working room between the drifter and the furled genoa. This allows the sheet to pass between them. I have also flown both sails at once, poled out on opposite sides as a version of twin head sails. The drifter is "tacked" to the pulpit with a web loop.
All that being said, I use the sail very little. Where I sail, light winds don't seem to last very long. They are either in the process of dying clear out, or building and soon beyond the wind range suitable for the drifter. There are exceptions of course, so it gets a little use, but if I was to do it all again, I would opt for a cruising spinnaker instead. A better performing downwind sail would be more useful than the drifter, which, when used as an upwind sail, isn't any better than my 150 genoa, unless you're trying to sail in winds so light that the genoa won't stay open.
Larry Y
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks Tyler!
I remember it from the Lake Pleasant Ran Tan. I think you walked away from us on Seas the Day! Of course my extra xxxx lbs. didn't help our performance much.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Tyler Backman < casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
> I use a nylon drifter on my M15, I am not sure of the dimensions. It can > tack to windward but doesn't point as high as the working jib, I think even > in light air it's much faster downwind but slower upwind than the working > jib. > > I run it outside the shrouds, currently to the dockline cleats... but will > add a genoa track for it soon. > > Tyler > Davis, CA > M15 #157 "Defiant" > > > On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Henry Rodriguez < heinzir@gmail.com
wrote: > > > > Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in > the > > archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter > > that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, > > Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it > like a > > spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? > > What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? > > Thanks! > > > > > > -- > > Henry > > https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir > > > > > > >
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Hi Henry, I don't use a drifter, but I have a newly installed A3 asym spinnaker which is sized for use with the semi-retractable/removable bowsprit I fabricated for the boat. The bowsprit places the tack about 30 inches ahead of the pulpit I have only had the spinnaker system installed on the boat for less than a week, but it really brings the M17 alive in light winds, and provides a huge improvement in downwind performance. I use a Seldon top-down furler. It is early days yet, but I am really pleased with the ease and level of control for deployment, dousing and gybing/tacking it provides... Basically it allows me with the same level of control from the cockpit for the spinnaker as I have with the CDI furler I use on my jib. This is really important to me as I mostly single hand the boat. (my Admiral is like a cat, she likes to drink water, but prefers not to ride on it!). I chose an A3 spinnaker cut to provide some level of upwind performance, so far it seems to be around 60 ish degrees AWA in light to moderate winds (up to 5-6 knots) and then begins to fall off which at that point is time for the jib anyhow. I am still learning how to tweak the setup with the hope of garnering another 5 degrees or so ie hopefully to 55 AWA... (this may be wishful thinking, time will tell) I realize this more of a "full blown spinnaker" solution than you were asking about, but given my very recent experience I thought I would share it as an option .... I don't have a picture of Serenity with the A3 flying yet but as soon as I get one I will be posting it! If you are interested I can provide some dimensions ... Keith *Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.* *Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353* On 24 July 2015 at 09:27, Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
Who uses a drifter with their M17? What are the dimensions? I see in the archives there is a picture of Larry Yakes' Corn Dog that shows a drifter that appears to be tacked to the bow pulpit. How is that working out, Larry? How big is the sail? Do you tack it like a genoa or jibe it like a spinnaker? What type of fitting do you have on the bow pulpit? What other light air options, short of a full blown soinnaker, are there? Thanks!
-- Henry https://picasaweb.google.com/heinzir
Hi, I am considering adding a rub rail on my M17 and want to see if anyone can give any advise. I'm looking to go with the "Taco V11-3447 Flexible Vinyl Rub Rail". Has anyone installed one of these or could anyone suggest another rub rail that might be better? Thanks,Ron McNeilJackpot/#675
Hi Ron, I was looking at a stainless D rub rail. I think a 12ft length centered on midship a would work. Something like http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C2276155%7C2276156&id=2276159
On Jul 25, 2015, at 6:53 PM, Ronald McNeil via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi, I am considering adding a rub rail on my M17 and want to see if anyone can give any advise. I'm looking to go with the "Taco V11-3447 Flexible Vinyl Rub Rail". Has anyone installed one of these or could anyone suggest another rub rail that might be better? Thanks,Ron McNeilJackpot/#675
participants (11)
-
Bill Wickett -
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Dave Scobie -
GARY M HYDE -
Henry Rodriguez -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
Keith R. Martin -
Larry Yake -
Ronald McNeil -
Tom Smith -
Tyler Backman