I am finally ironing out the difficulties with my rig, such as sagging main sail and weird position of the spreaders. I now have the mast stepped on the boat on my driveway. I have the standing rigging tensioned with the split backstay turnbuckle wound out as far as I feel is safe. The mast rake still looks excessive and the shroud ends of the spreaders are actually forward of the mast. This cannot be correct. The rig is stock in every way. Any help will be appreciated.. Also my mainsail, which is 38years old will not set properly. When I haul it up the mast and cleat off the main halyard, and then use a cunningham to tension the luff I cannot get the bag out of the lower third of the mainsail adjacent to the tack. The outhaul is also tight so the foot is as tight as it can be. I seem to remember a remark made on this site once about the luff rope actually shrinking thus preventing setting the mainsail properly. Is this what I am dealing with now? Fair winds, Tom B.
Certainly sounds like your backstay set up is too short. This is a long shot, but is there any chance the backstay and headstay got mixed up? By its very nature, a tight Cunningham will cause a little slack in the luff between the Cunningham cringle and the tack. That is nothing to be concerned about. Another long shot, but these boats came with sliding goosenecks, which makes a Cunningham redundant. Is it possible you do not even have a Cunningham cringle and are using the reef cringle instead? If you still have a sliding gooseneck, try using a downhaul on that and see what happens. In any event, a 38 year old sail is beyond toast and should be replaced just as soon as the budget allows. -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Buzzi Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 1:34 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Mast rake on my Montgomery 17 I am finally ironing out the difficulties with my rig, such as sagging main sail and weird position of the spreaders. I now have the mast stepped on the boat on my driveway. I have the standing rigging tensioned with the split backstay turnbuckle wound out as far as I feel is safe. The mast rake still looks excessive and the shroud ends of the spreaders are actually forward of the mast. This cannot be correct. The rig is stock in every way. Any help will be appreciated.. Also my mainsail, which is 38years old will not set properly. When I haul it up the mast and cleat off the main halyard, and then use a cunningham to tension the luff I cannot get the bag out of the lower third of the mainsail adjacent to the tack. The outhaul is also tight so the foot is as tight as it can be. I seem to remember a remark made on this site once about the luff rope actually shrinking thus preventing setting the mainsail properly. Is this what I am dealing with now? Fair winds, Tom B.
rake of the mast to be between 3 to 6 inches ... depends on personal preferences for weather helm, windward ability preferences, etc. sharing a picture of the boat, leveled on her lines, could help the group evaluate the situation. you can also measure the rake by putting a weight on the main headboard shackle (no boom on boat, no wind, set shackle a few inches above the deck). see how far the halyard is aft of the mast. you can extend the length of the backstay by an inch using a eye jaw toggle (search west marine for 'ALEXANDER ROBERTS Eye Jaw Toggles'. you want the 1/4" pin version. you can extend the length of the forestay the same way. the eye jaw toggle is attached to the pin that holds theh backstay/forestay to the head of the mast. attach the forestay/backstay to the eye jaw toggle. as Stanley wrote ... the main is toast and needs to be replaced. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Stanley Wheatley <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Buzzi
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 1:34 PM
I am finally ironing out the difficulties with my rig, such as sagging main sail and weird position of the spreaders. I now have the mast stepped on the boat on my driveway. I have the standing rigging tensioned with the split backstay turnbuckle wound out as far as I feel is safe. The mast rake still looks excessive and the shroud ends of the spreaders are actually forward of the mast. This cannot be correct. The rig is stock in every way. Any help will be appreciated.. Also my mainsail, which is 38years old will not set properly. When I haul it up the mast and cleat off the main halyard, and then use a cunningham to tension the luff I cannot get the bag out of the lower third of the mainsail adjacent to the tack. The outhaul is also tight so the foot is as tight as it can be. I seem to remember a remark made on this site once about the luff rope actually shrinking thus preventing setting the mainsail properly. Is this what I am dealing with now? Fair winds, Tom B.
Hello Dave, Thanks for the info. I used a weight on the mast hung from the main halyard to check mast rake but I did not level the boat. I assume the factory applied waterline is level? Fair winds, Tom B On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
rake of the mast to be between 3 to 6 inches ... depends on personal preferences for weather helm, windward ability preferences, etc.
sharing a picture of the boat, leveled on her lines, could help the group evaluate the situation. you can also measure the rake by putting a weight on the main headboard shackle (no boom on boat, no wind, set shackle a few inches above the deck). see how far the halyard is aft of the mast.
you can extend the length of the backstay by an inch using a eye jaw toggle (search west marine for 'ALEXANDER ROBERTS Eye Jaw Toggles'. you want the 1/4" pin version. you can extend the length of the forestay the same way. the eye jaw toggle is attached to the pin that holds theh backstay/forestay to the head of the mast. attach the forestay/backstay to the eye jaw toggle.
as Stanley wrote ... the main is toast and needs to be replaced.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Stanley Wheatley <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Buzzi
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 1:34 PM
I am finally ironing out the difficulties with my rig, such as sagging main sail and weird position of the spreaders. I now have the mast stepped on the boat on my driveway. I have the standing rigging tensioned with the split backstay turnbuckle wound out as far as I feel is safe. The mast rake still looks excessive and the shroud ends of the spreaders are actually forward of the mast. This cannot be correct. The rig is stock in every way. Any help will be appreciated.. Also my mainsail, which is 38years old will not set properly. When I haul it up the mast and cleat off the main halyard, and then use a cunningham to tension the luff I cannot get the bag out of the lower third of the mainsail adjacent to the tack. The outhaul is also tight so the foot is as tight as it can be. I seem to remember a remark made on this site once about the luff rope actually shrinking thus preventing setting the mainsail properly. Is this what I am dealing with now? Fair winds, Tom B.
Tom. The cockpit seats are level when the boat is on her lines. The waterline may be level, but easier to lay a level on cockpit seats :-) :: Dave Scobie On Jul 27, 2015 5:55 AM, "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Dave, Thanks for the info. I used a weight on the mast hung from the main halyard to check mast rake but I did not level the boat. I assume the factory applied waterline is level? Fair winds, Tom B
On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
rake of the mast to be between 3 to 6 inches ... depends on personal preferences for weather helm, windward ability preferences, etc.
sharing a picture of the boat, leveled on her lines, could help the group evaluate the situation. you can also measure the rake by putting a weight on the main headboard shackle (no boom on boat, no wind, set shackle a few inches above the deck). see how far the halyard is aft of the mast.
you can extend the length of the backstay by an inch using a eye jaw toggle (search west marine for 'ALEXANDER ROBERTS Eye Jaw Toggles'. you want the 1/4" pin version. you can extend the length of the forestay the same way. the eye jaw toggle is attached to the pin that holds theh backstay/forestay to the head of the mast. attach the forestay/backstay to the eye jaw toggle.
as Stanley wrote ... the main is toast and needs to be replaced.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Stanley Wheatley < swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Buzzi
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 1:34 PM
I am finally ironing out the difficulties with my rig, such as sagging main sail and weird position of the spreaders. I now have the mast stepped on the boat on my driveway. I have the standing rigging tensioned with the split backstay turnbuckle wound out as far as I feel is safe. The mast rake still looks excessive and the shroud ends of the spreaders are actually forward of the mast. This cannot be correct. The rig is stock in every way. Any help will be appreciated.. Also my mainsail, which is 38years old will not set properly. When I haul it up the mast and cleat off the main halyard, and then use a cunningham to tension the luff I cannot get the bag out of the lower third of the mainsail adjacent to the tack. The outhaul is also tight so the foot is as tight as it can be. I seem to remember a remark made on this site once about the luff rope actually shrinking thus preventing setting the mainsail properly. Is this what I am dealing with now? Fair winds, Tom B.
Thank you for the quick reply, Dave. That was my second guess. I think maybe when I removed the mast tabernacle to rebed it I may have inadvertantly reversed it on the boat. That would move the pivot bolt two inches aft. I am checking my archives to see if that is what I did. Regards, Tom Buzzi On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom.
The cockpit seats are level when the boat is on her lines.
The waterline may be level, but easier to lay a level on cockpit seats :-)
:: Dave Scobie On Jul 27, 2015 5:55 AM, "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Dave, Thanks for the info. I used a weight on the mast hung from the main halyard to check mast rake but I did not level the boat. I assume the factory applied waterline is level? Fair winds, Tom B
On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
rake of the mast to be between 3 to 6 inches ... depends on personal preferences for weather helm, windward ability preferences, etc.
sharing a picture of the boat, leveled on her lines, could help the group evaluate the situation. you can also measure the rake by putting a weight on the main headboard shackle (no boom on boat, no wind, set shackle a few inches above the deck). see how far the halyard is aft of the mast.
you can extend the length of the backstay by an inch using a eye jaw toggle (search west marine for 'ALEXANDER ROBERTS Eye Jaw Toggles'. you want the 1/4" pin version. you can extend the length of the forestay the same way. the eye jaw toggle is attached to the pin that holds theh backstay/forestay to the head of the mast. attach the forestay/backstay to the eye jaw toggle.
as Stanley wrote ... the main is toast and needs to be replaced.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Stanley Wheatley < swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Buzzi
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 1:34 PM
I am finally ironing out the difficulties with my rig, such as sagging main sail and weird position of the spreaders. I now have the mast stepped on the boat on my driveway. I have the standing rigging tensioned with the split backstay turnbuckle wound out as far as I feel is safe. The mast rake still looks excessive and the shroud ends of the spreaders are actually forward of the mast. This cannot be correct. The rig is stock in every way. Any help will be appreciated.. Also my mainsail, which is 38years old will not set properly. When I haul it up the mast and cleat off the main halyard, and then use a cunningham to tension the luff I cannot get the bag out of the lower third of the mainsail adjacent to the tack. The outhaul is also tight so the foot is as tight as it can be. I seem to remember a remark made on this site once about the luff rope actually shrinking thus preventing setting the mainsail properly. Is this what I am dealing with now? Fair winds, Tom B.
Hi Stanley, Thanks for the ideas. I did also use the downhaul on the boom. I am familiar with the slack just above the tack fitting when using a cunningham. The split backstay is much shorter than the forestay. I do appreciate your reply. Fair winds, Tom Buzzi On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Stanley Wheatley <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
Certainly sounds like your backstay set up is too short. This is a long shot, but is there any chance the backstay and headstay got mixed up?
By its very nature, a tight Cunningham will cause a little slack in the luff between the Cunningham cringle and the tack. That is nothing to be concerned about. Another long shot, but these boats came with sliding goosenecks, which makes a Cunningham redundant. Is it possible you do not even have a Cunningham cringle and are using the reef cringle instead? If you still have a sliding gooseneck, try using a downhaul on that and see what happens.
In any event, a 38 year old sail is beyond toast and should be replaced just as soon as the budget allows.
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Buzzi Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 1:34 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Mast rake on my Montgomery 17
I am finally ironing out the difficulties with my rig, such as sagging main sail and weird position of the spreaders. I now have the mast stepped on the boat on my driveway. I have the standing rigging tensioned with the split backstay turnbuckle wound out as far as I feel is safe. The mast rake still looks excessive and the shroud ends of the spreaders are actually forward of the mast. This cannot be correct. The rig is stock in every way. Any help will be appreciated.. Also my mainsail, which is 38years old will not set properly. When I haul it up the mast and cleat off the main halyard, and then use a cunningham to tension the luff I cannot get the bag out of the lower third of the mainsail adjacent to the tack. The outhaul is also tight so the foot is as tight as it can be. I seem to remember a remark made on this site once about the luff rope actually shrinking thus preventing setting the mainsail properly. Is this what I am dealing with now? Fair winds, Tom B.
participants (3)
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Dave Scobie -
Stanley Wheatley -
Thomas Buzzi