Hi all. I'm stripping the nearly 50 year old varnish from my M17's stock rudder, and man is that varnish sturdy. I'd love to replace it with something as durable -- what would you all suggest? There are some cracks near the bottom that were repaired with fiberglass and resin, which I plan to re-do as well. Cheers! --Jen
Jen, I have used Deks Olje with very good results ( using #1 and #2). It is hard to find so I am using Deks #1 and Petit Captains spar varnish over the #1. I believe you can use Penetrol in lieu of #1, with equal results. Let the topcoats dry, sand lightly with 220 wet or dry, recoat, as many times as you want. Usually takes a minimum of 3 or 4 coats. Note- varnish does not fill grain well- sanding will help- use a block and get lots of sandpaper, varnish clogs the grit. Sand just enough to take the gloss off the most recent coat of varnish, final coat hang rudder indoors (garage etc) and let dry for 3-5 days. Have fun, go sailing! GO On Sat, Mar 2, 2024 at 5:17 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Hi all. I'm stripping the nearly 50 year old varnish from my M17's stock rudder, and man is that varnish sturdy. I'd love to replace it with something as durable -- what would you all suggest?
There are some cracks near the bottom that were repaired with fiberglass and resin, which I plan to re-do as well.
Cheers! --Jen
If you are stripping the whole rudder down to bare wood, I highly recommend applying CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealer) before varnishing. Especially on the end grain at the bottom, any cracked areas there and repairs to same, and the lower pintle bolt holes (often under water), and, everywhere else also. It will seal the wood from significant water absorption, so that scratches dents nicks cracks in the varnish will not result in the usual rapid blackening and need for immediate/constant repair & refinishing if you use only varnish. Also your base coat of varnish will stick better. I used CPES when I refinished my M17 mahogany rudder some years ago. Also for a base coat on most any wood I'm using on/in a boat that is going to get epoxy and/or varnish on it. If it's getting fiber-glassed but is at risk of damage that breaches the glass layer (e.g. bottom of wooden boat) I use it there also. Especially good for sealing any end grain, whether solid wood or plywood. May seem pricey, but a little goes a long way, both in terms of direct application and in terms of reducing repair/refinish work after that. Manufacturer site: https://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/ cheers, John On 3/2/24 16:31, Gary H.Oberbeck wrote:
Jen, I have used Deks Olje with very good results ( using #1 and #2). It is hard to find so I am using Deks #1 and Petit Captains spar varnish over the #1. I believe you can use Penetrol in lieu of #1, with equal results. Let the topcoats dry, sand lightly with 220 wet or dry, recoat, as many times as you want. Usually takes a minimum of 3 or 4 coats. Note- varnish does not fill grain well- sanding will help- use a block and get lots of sandpaper, varnish clogs the grit. Sand just enough to take the gloss off the most recent coat of varnish, final coat hang rudder indoors (garage etc) and let dry for 3-5 days.
Have fun, go sailing! GO
On Sat, Mar 2, 2024 at 5:17 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Hi all. I'm stripping the nearly 50 year old varnish from my M17's stock rudder, and man is that varnish sturdy. I'd love to replace it with something as durable -- what would you all suggest?
There are some cracks near the bottom that were repaired with fiberglass and resin, which I plan to re-do as well.
Cheers! --Jen
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hello Jennifer: Following up as I didn't hear back from you. IMO unless you are keeping the rudder in-water for more than a week or so at a time there is no need for anything besides a good marine spar varnish (not home hardware store varnish marked 'spar varnish' but actually marine varnish made for boats). All finishes requires at minimum a yearly servicing and about every 10 years complete removal and redo. Here are some pointers on finishing/refinishing rudders - - https://m17-375.com/2019/02/15/varnishing/ - https://m17-375.com/2019/02/19/varnishing-part-2/ For seasonal refinishing, when a complete refinish isn't needed, remove the rudder hardware and clean using Interlux 333. Clean the wood before sanding so you don’t drive dirt, salt and anything else collected over the sailing season into the wood. Now sand the rudder with 220 grit sandpaper. If there is damage to the rudder finish I will sand that location with 120 and then with 220. Be sure to ‘rough up’ the entire piece with 220 to assure you get a good bond between the old and new varnish. The more old varnish removed by sanding requires more new coats of varnish to be applied. Seasonal refinishing, again a complete stripping and starting over happens about every 10 years, three coats is usually adequate. Let me know some more details, a couple of pictures would be great, and I can provide more pointers. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sailboatsallow.wordpress.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Sat, Mar 2, 2024 at 4:17 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Hi all. I'm stripping the nearly 50 year old varnish from my M17's stock rudder, and man is that varnish sturdy. I'd love to replace it with something as durable -- what would you all suggest?
There are some cracks near the bottom that were repaired with fiberglass and resin, which I plan to re-do as well.
Cheers! --Jen
Hey, thanks so much for following up! The boat will be hooked on a buoy for most of the summer (hopefully -- drawing is this afternoon!), so it sounds like varnish alone might not be enough. There's a local guy who does fiberglass repair, so I dropped it off with him to tend to the checks and cracks at the top and bottom, after I sanded it down to bare wood. There's an old repair at the bottom that needs to be redone after I ran aground a couple of years ago, and the top is showing its age as well. The bottom half of the rudder (as well as the hull below the waterline) gets a coat of anti-fouling, as our lake is quite mucky. The trolling motor on my other boat (a Siren 17, for sale if anyone's interested) looks like it was dipped in cement; I spent a couple hours with a deliming solution and a scrubbie on that boat's rudder that year. If it comes out bad, then well... lesson learned and back to the 80 grit I guess. Thanks again! --Jen On Sun, Apr 14, 2024 at 12:05 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Jennifer:
Following up as I didn't hear back from you.
IMO unless you are keeping the rudder in-water for more than a week or so at a time there is no need for anything besides a good marine spar varnish (not home hardware store varnish marked 'spar varnish' but actually marine varnish made for boats).
All finishes requires at minimum a yearly servicing and about every 10 years complete removal and redo.
Here are some pointers on finishing/refinishing rudders -
- https://m17-375.com/2019/02/15/varnishing/ - https://m17-375.com/2019/02/19/varnishing-part-2/
For seasonal refinishing, when a complete refinish isn't needed, remove the rudder hardware and clean using Interlux 333. Clean the wood before sanding so you don’t drive dirt, salt and anything else collected over the sailing season into the wood. Now sand the rudder with 220 grit sandpaper. If there is damage to the rudder finish I will sand that location with 120 and then with 220. Be sure to ‘rough up’ the entire piece with 220 to assure you get a good bond between the old and new varnish. The more old varnish removed by sanding requires more new coats of varnish to be applied. Seasonal refinishing, again a complete stripping and starting over happens about every 10 years, three coats is usually adequate.
Let me know some more details, a couple of pictures would be great, and I can provide more pointers.
:: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sailboatsallow.wordpress.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Sat, Mar 2, 2024 at 4:17 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Hi all. I'm stripping the nearly 50 year old varnish from my M17's stock rudder, and man is that varnish sturdy. I'd love to replace it with something as durable -- what would you all suggest?
There are some cracks near the bottom that were repaired with fiberglass and resin, which I plan to re-do as well.
Cheers! --Jen
-- Jennifer Wood (she/her) Itinerant musician? Try the Guide to the Universe! https://www.buskersguidetotheuniverse.org/ https://buskersguide.org <http://buskersguide.org>
My wooden M17 rudder sits in lake water for some months in the summer, last few years. The lower part of it anyhow... :-) When I last repaired & refinished it, I started by applying CPES to the bare wood. One coat gets most of it, then a second to hit any particularly absorbent areas, end grain at the bottom, etc. After that cured, I finished with multiple coats of varnish. I've had no issues with the rudder sitting in water long term with the CPES base coats sealing the wood. As a bonus, paint or varnish applied on top of CPES sticks really well. So also no issues with the varnish flaking loose. The rudder gets slimy after a while, but a nylon scrub brush cleans it fairly quick & easy. CPES = clear penetrating epoxy sealer from Smith & Co. - https://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/index.html - their website is a bit of a crude mess, but the info is all there. You can order direct from them or from various online marine, vintage trailer, etc. sources (Mike's Marine, Vintage Trailer Supply, Fisheries Supply, as a few examples). I use it as first coat(s) on any wood (other than the teak bits, for that I use Dalys ship'n'shore sealer and then Dalys teak oil) that's likely to be frequently wet and/or immersed for any length of time. Especially any end grain of solid wood and edges of plywood. cheers, John On 4/16/24 13:32, Jennifer Wood wrote:
Hey, thanks so much for following up!
The boat will be hooked on a buoy for most of the summer (hopefully -- drawing is this afternoon!), so it sounds like varnish alone might not be enough. There's a local guy who does fiberglass repair, so I dropped it off with him to tend to the checks and cracks at the top and bottom, after I sanded it down to bare wood. There's an old repair at the bottom that needs to be redone after I ran aground a couple of years ago, and the top is showing its age as well. The bottom half of the rudder (as well as the hull below the waterline) gets a coat of anti-fouling, as our lake is quite mucky. The trolling motor on my other boat (a Siren 17, for sale if anyone's interested) looks like it was dipped in cement; I spent a couple hours with a deliming solution and a scrubbie on that boat's rudder that year.
If it comes out bad, then well... lesson learned and back to the 80 grit I guess.
Thanks again!
--Jen
On Sun, Apr 14, 2024 at 12:05 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Jennifer:
Following up as I didn't hear back from you.
IMO unless you are keeping the rudder in-water for more than a week or so at a time there is no need for anything besides a good marine spar varnish (not home hardware store varnish marked 'spar varnish' but actually marine varnish made for boats).
All finishes requires at minimum a yearly servicing and about every 10 years complete removal and redo.
Here are some pointers on finishing/refinishing rudders -
- https://m17-375.com/2019/02/15/varnishing/ - https://m17-375.com/2019/02/19/varnishing-part-2/
For seasonal refinishing, when a complete refinish isn't needed, remove the rudder hardware and clean using Interlux 333. Clean the wood before sanding so you don’t drive dirt, salt and anything else collected over the sailing season into the wood. Now sand the rudder with 220 grit sandpaper. If there is damage to the rudder finish I will sand that location with 120 and then with 220. Be sure to ‘rough up’ the entire piece with 220 to assure you get a good bond between the old and new varnish. The more old varnish removed by sanding requires more new coats of varnish to be applied. Seasonal refinishing, again a complete stripping and starting over happens about every 10 years, three coats is usually adequate.
Let me know some more details, a couple of pictures would be great, and I can provide more pointers.
:: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sailboatsallow.wordpress.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Sat, Mar 2, 2024 at 4:17 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Hi all. I'm stripping the nearly 50 year old varnish from my M17's stock rudder, and man is that varnish sturdy. I'd love to replace it with something as durable -- what would you all suggest?
There are some cracks near the bottom that were repaired with fiberglass and resin, which I plan to re-do as well.
Cheers! --Jen
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (4)
-
Dave Scobie -
Gary H.Oberbeck -
Jennifer Wood -
John Schinnerer