The M-17 rudder may be used in the retracted position (original model with vertically retracting rudder) I think someone once measured it in the "up" position and it was approx. 2-3" deeper than the keel with the board up. Look up rudder depth in the archives. GO. LB/GF! M-17 # 316a 'that ain't bad gelcoat -it's "patina"! Team Geezer Racing.....Old and in the Way Arizona Sailing Squadron **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)