I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out the flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be rust stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some rough glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled in it (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no other signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing shape. It does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original . My questions for all of you: 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about this? Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting lighter :)) 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? What are the options? 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water (I think its been a few years since her last launch)? 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there enough voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are the pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining cutting into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join and the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to the ballast? I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel and replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site but came up cold.. Many thanks for all your thoughts- Alex Conley
Alex: Simple answer is, as the board goes up and down with no problems, GO SAILING. Monitor the situation and if things change then look for options. More details - You wrote, 'ballast getting lighter'. It is not unless you start jackhammering it out ;-) Look along the joint where the trunk joins the bottom of the keel for any cracks. If any are present this is a possible place where water can enter. Cleaning and prepping for an epoxy repair of the cracks (again if any) is an option. Share pictures of what you find. The bottom of the keel photo you shared shows no immediate concerns. There are some pictures here about repairing the trunk-bottom-of-keel-joint in this MSOG post - http://www.msog.org/how-to/centerboard/cbrepair_johnson.cfm ONLY look at the bottom of the keel photos as the in-cabin things, in my opinion, don't relate to your situation. So when you touching the 'steel hump' you get oil/rust on your hand? #4 question - the ballast was poured in a couple of layers to limit heat build up as the resin kicked. The hump was then piled up and covered with the glass as you see. The ballast was suppose to be saturated with resin. Injection of anything will only make problems. At this moment, as written above, leave it alone. #5 - drill NO holes at this time! #6 - look for damage to the keel and any issues around the rotation pin. Any weeping rust? (Based on what you wrote there are none.). See notes about e looking for cracking along the keel and trunk joint. Did the prior owner talk about the rust? Can you ask him/her about it? Is this new or has the situation been stable for years and years? :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:31 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out the flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be rust stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some rough glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled in it (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no other signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing shape. It does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original .
My questions for all of you: 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about this? Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting lighter :)) 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? What are the options? 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water (I think its been a few years since her last launch)? 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there enough voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are the pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining cutting into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join and the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to the ballast?
I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel and replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site but came up cold..
Many thanks for all your thoughts-
Alex Conley
I like that answer! And knowing the ballast is in resin helps me feel comfortable with the sail n monitor approach (I’d imagined a sloshing mess of rust soup...). Looking again, I can see a bathtub ring where water sat at one point ahead of the bulge. What would be the likely paths for water to even get in there under the v birth (other than someone hosing off the interior)? Hull deck joint looks solid, and it looks like the bulkhead around the bulge separates it from the rest of the bilge... Thanks Dave, for all the shared knowledge, Alex On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 6:31 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Simple answer is, as the board goes up and down with no problems, GO SAILING.
Monitor the situation and if things change then look for options.
More details -
You wrote, 'ballast getting lighter'. It is not unless you start jackhammering it out ;-)
Look along the joint where the trunk joins the bottom of the keel for any cracks. If any are present this is a possible place where water can enter. Cleaning and prepping for an epoxy repair of the cracks (again if any) is an option. Share pictures of what you find. The bottom of the keel photo you shared shows no immediate concerns.
There are some pictures here about repairing the trunk-bottom-of-keel-joint in this MSOG post -
http://www.msog.org/how-to/centerboard/cbrepair_johnson.cfm
ONLY look at the bottom of the keel photos as the in-cabin things, in my opinion, don't relate to your situation.
So when you touching the 'steel hump' you get oil/rust on your hand?
#4 question - the ballast was poured in a couple of layers to limit heat build up as the resin kicked. The hump was then piled up and covered with the glass as you see. The ballast was suppose to be saturated with resin. Injection of anything will only make problems. At this moment, as written above, leave it alone.
#5 - drill NO holes at this time!
#6 - look for damage to the keel and any issues around the rotation pin. Any weeping rust? (Based on what you wrote there are none.). See notes about e looking for cracking along the keel and trunk joint.
Did the prior owner talk about the rust? Can you ask him/her about it? Is this new or has the situation been stable for years and years?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:31 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out the flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be rust stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some rough glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled in it (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no other signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing shape. It does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original .
My questions for all of you: 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about this? Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting lighter :)) 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? What are the options? 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water (I think its been a few years since her last launch)? 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there enough voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are the pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining cutting into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join and the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to the ballast?
I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel and replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site but came up cold..
Many thanks for all your thoughts-
Alex Conley
H'mm You know, maybe we've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe the water that causes the rust comes from the inside through other means (condensation etc..) and soaks through the polyester resin? In that case, perhaps a coating on the inside (epoxy or paint could be a good thing) Or a good winter cover.... On Monday, April 15, 2019, 6:48:22 PM PDT, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote: I ike that answer! And knowing the ballast is in resin helps me feel comfortable with the sail n monitor approach (I’d imagined a sloshing mess of rust soup...). Looking again, I can see a bathtub ring where water sat at one point ahead of the bulge. What would be the likely paths for water to even get in there under the v birth (other than someone hosing off the interior)? Hull deck joint looks solid, and it looks like the bulkhead around the bulge separates it from the rest of the bilge... Thanks Dave, for all the shared knowledge, Alex On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 6:31 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Simple answer is, as the board goes up and down with no problems, GO SAILING.
Monitor the situation and if things change then look for options.
More details -
You wrote, 'ballast getting lighter'. It is not unless you start jackhammering it out ;-)
Look along the joint where the trunk joins the bottom of the keel for any cracks. If any are present this is a possible place where water can enter. Cleaning and prepping for an epoxy repair of the cracks (again if any) is an option. Share pictures of what you find. The bottom of the keel photo you shared shows no immediate concerns.
There are some pictures here about repairing the trunk-bottom-of-keel-joint in this MSOG post -
http://www.msog.org/how-to/centerboard/cbrepair_johnson.cfm
ONLY look at the bottom of the keel photos as the in-cabin things, in my opinion, don't relate to your situation.
So when you touching the 'steel hump' you get oil/rust on your hand?
#4 question - the ballast was poured in a couple of layers to limit heat build up as the resin kicked. The hump was then piled up and covered with the glass as you see. The ballast was suppose to be saturated with resin. Injection of anything will only make problems. At this moment, as written above, leave it alone.
#5 - drill NO holes at this time!
#6 - look for damage to the keel and any issues around the rotation pin. Any weeping rust? (Based on what you wrote there are none.). See notes about e looking for cracking along the keel and trunk joint.
Did the prior owner talk about the rust? Can you ask him/her about it? Is this new or has the situation been stable for years and years?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:31 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out the flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be rust stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some rough glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled in it (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no other signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing shape. It does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original .
My questions for all of you: 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about this? Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting lighter :)) 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? What are the options? 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water (I think its been a few years since her last launch)? 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there enough voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are the pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining cutting into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join and the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to the ballast?
I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel and replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site but came up cold..
Many thanks for all your thoughts-
Alex Conley
Hi Alex, One comforting thought is that the older Monty boats are fantastic, and are inexpensive compared to a new Sage due to the fact that certain things on them are going to need attention. Thankfully, most of these can be fixed with sweat equity and a little money. The good news is that almost none of these items are safety hazard issues, and don't need immediate attention especially if we don't need to have a creampuff for a boat. If you get really frustrated trying to find the source of this water intrusion, welcome to the club! With only a Monty 12, I have no knowledge of the specifics of your boat. However, we have chased leaks for many years on many pocket cruisers. The obvious suspects are where holes are drilled in the deck and the bedding has failed, hatch boards, and vents. However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge. If you are in an area where there is a significant freeze/thaw cycle it can be important to take care of these sorts of leaks so that water expansion does not do serious damage to the boat. Or, make sure your boat is good and dry and then get it covered well before the freeze. Burt Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:08 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
H'mm You know, maybe we've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe the water that causes the rust comes from the inside through other means (condensation etc..) and soaks through the polyester resin?
In that case, perhaps a coating on the inside (epoxy or paint could be a good thing) Or a good winter cover....
On Monday, April 15, 2019, 6:48:22 PM PDT, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I ike that answer! And knowing the ballast is in resin helps me feel comfortable with the sail n monitor approach (I’d imagined a sloshing mess of rust soup...).
Looking again, I can see a bathtub ring where water sat at one point ahead of the bulge. What would be the likely paths for water to even get in there under the v birth (other than someone hosing off the interior)? Hull deck joint looks solid, and it looks like the bulkhead around the bulge separates it from the rest of the bilge...
Thanks Dave, for all the shared knowledge,
Alex
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 6:31 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Simple answer is, as the board goes up and down with no problems, GO SAILING.
Monitor the situation and if things change then look for options.
More details -
You wrote, 'ballast getting lighter'. It is not unless you start jackhammering it out ;-)
Look along the joint where the trunk joins the bottom of the keel for any cracks. If any are present this is a possible place where water can enter. Cleaning and prepping for an epoxy repair of the cracks (again if any) is an option. Share pictures of what you find. The bottom of the keel photo you shared shows no immediate concerns.
There are some pictures here about repairing the trunk-bottom-of-keel-joint in this MSOG post -
http://www.msog.org/how-to/centerboard/cbrepair_johnson.cfm
ONLY look at the bottom of the keel photos as the in-cabin things, in my opinion, don't relate to your situation.
So when you touching the 'steel hump' you get oil/rust on your hand?
#4 question - the ballast was poured in a couple of layers to limit heat build up as the resin kicked. The hump was then piled up and covered with the glass as you see. The ballast was suppose to be saturated with resin. Injection of anything will only make problems. At this moment, as written above, leave it alone.
#5 - drill NO holes at this time!
#6 - look for damage to the keel and any issues around the rotation pin. Any weeping rust? (Based on what you wrote there are none.). See notes about e looking for cracking along the keel and trunk joint.
Did the prior owner talk about the rust? Can you ask him/her about it? Is this new or has the situation been stable for years and years?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:31 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out the flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be rust stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some rough glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled in it (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no other signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing shape. It does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original .
My questions for all of you: 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about this? Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting lighter :)) 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? What are the options? 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water (I think its been a few years since her last launch)? 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there enough voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are the pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining cutting into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join and the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to the ballast?
I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel and replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site but came up cold..
Many thanks for all your thoughts-
Alex Conley
The "lump" under the fwd berth is trim ballast and not part of the keel ballast, and is put in place and glassed over AFTER the keel ballast is installed and glassed over, and is in front of the keel ballast anyway. it's well forward because it's for the sake of trim to compensate for weight in the cockpit. A problem with small cruisers is that the cockpit is in the back of the boat, and the more weight in the cockpit the more the boat trims aft, which slows it down for a couple of obvious reasons. Sailing dinghies don't have this problem because the skipper and crew sit in the center of the boat, wherever they need to be to trim the boat for best performance. Early in my boatbuilding experience, I was fortunate to be hired to help Lyle Hess make the plugs for the original Balboa 20, which he had designed and was his first fiberglass boat. It was a learning experience for both of us; I learned a tremendous amount about boat building and design, he learned to be patient with a million stupid questions. We strip planked the hull, and as it was taking shape I questioned why the after sections were so full. (hi volume). his answer was that it needed the buoyancy because of weight in the cockpit, to keep the boat from burying the transom. This made sense but I always questioned it a bit. Later, in my studies, I learned that the ideal fore-and-aft center of buoyancy (LCB), in a displacement hull, in terms of performance was 54 to 55% aft, considering only the underbody of the hull. Any deviation of this slows the boat down. When Lyle was designing the M-17 for me I talked him into cleaning up the aft sections a bit and planned to trim the boat as needed using trim ballast. Both the Montgomery 15 and 17 have trim ballast, also the Sages. It worked and is one of the reasons that the M-17 is faster than a Balboa 20. I eased the run aft on the Sages even more, and I'm confident that this is one of the reasons that the Sages are faster. The M-15 and the Sages are all dead on 55%. This factor, along with the prismatic coefficient, are two major "invisible" reasons for differences in performance. I wouldn't worry about rust in the trim ballast; it's not going to spread into the keel ballast. As Dave says, go sailing. -----Original Message----- From: Burton Lowry Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 9:43 AM To: Lawrence Winiarski ; For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 rusting ballast Hi Alex, One comforting thought is that the older Monty boats are fantastic, and are inexpensive compared to a new Sage due to the fact that certain things on them are going to need attention. Thankfully, most of these can be fixed with sweat equity and a little money. The good news is that almost none of these items are safety hazard issues, and don't need immediate attention especially if we don't need to have a creampuff for a boat. If you get really frustrated trying to find the source of this water intrusion, welcome to the club! With only a Monty 12, I have no knowledge of the specifics of your boat. However, we have chased leaks for many years on many pocket cruisers. The obvious suspects are where holes are drilled in the deck and the bedding has failed, hatch boards, and vents. However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge. If you are in an area where there is a significant freeze/thaw cycle it can be important to take care of these sorts of leaks so that water expansion does not do serious damage to the boat. Or, make sure your boat is good and dry and then get it covered well before the freeze. Burt Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:08 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
H'mm You know, maybe we've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe the water that causes the rust comes from the inside through other means (condensation etc..) and soaks through the polyester resin?
In that case, perhaps a coating on the inside (epoxy or paint could be a good thing) Or a good winter cover....
On Monday, April 15, 2019, 6:48:22 PM PDT, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I ike that answer! And knowing the ballast is in resin helps me feel comfortable with the sail n monitor approach (I’d imagined a sloshing mess of rust soup...).
Looking again, I can see a bathtub ring where water sat at one point ahead of the bulge. What would be the likely paths for water to even get in there under the v birth (other than someone hosing off the interior)? Hull deck joint looks solid, and it looks like the bulkhead around the bulge separates it from the rest of the bilge...
Thanks Dave, for all the shared knowledge,
Alex
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 6:31 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Simple answer is, as the board goes up and down with no problems, GO SAILING.
Monitor the situation and if things change then look for options.
More details -
You wrote, 'ballast getting lighter'. It is not unless you start jackhammering it out ;-)
Look along the joint where the trunk joins the bottom of the keel for any cracks. If any are present this is a possible place where water can enter. Cleaning and prepping for an epoxy repair of the cracks (again if any) is an option. Share pictures of what you find. The bottom of the keel photo you shared shows no immediate concerns.
There are some pictures here about repairing the trunk-bottom-of-keel-joint in this MSOG post -
http://www.msog.org/how-to/centerboard/cbrepair_johnson.cfm
ONLY look at the bottom of the keel photos as the in-cabin things, in my opinion, don't relate to your situation.
So when you touching the 'steel hump' you get oil/rust on your hand?
#4 question - the ballast was poured in a couple of layers to limit heat build up as the resin kicked. The hump was then piled up and covered with the glass as you see. The ballast was suppose to be saturated with resin. Injection of anything will only make problems. At this moment, as written above, leave it alone.
#5 - drill NO holes at this time!
#6 - look for damage to the keel and any issues around the rotation pin. Any weeping rust? (Based on what you wrote there are none.). See notes about e looking for cracking along the keel and trunk joint.
Did the prior owner talk about the rust? Can you ask him/her about it? Is this new or has the situation been stable for years and years?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:31 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out the flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be rust stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some rough glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled in it (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no other signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing shape. It does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original .
My questions for all of you: 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about this? Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting lighter :)) 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? What are the options? 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water (I think its been a few years since her last launch)? 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there enough voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are the pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining cutting into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join and the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to the ballast?
I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel and replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site but came up cold..
Many thanks for all your thoughts-
Alex Conley
Thanks Jerry- knowing the hump is separate from the keel cavity eliminates all my worries. Other than sealing a few spider web cracks in the gelcoat around the pivot pin, I think I'm good to go sailing! And Burton, unless I see new water, I'm going to assume the water was from overzealous spraying as the previous owners grand kids prepared the boat for sale. Why worry now when you can worry later? Overall amazed at what good condition this boat is in for 32 years old. Now on to more important things, like buying a hiking stick so I can slide around to keep the boat trimmed to 55% aft- Jerry, your mini-lessons in naval architecture and how these boats were constructed is invaluable! Alex On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:48 AM <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
The "lump" under the fwd berth is trim ballast and not part of the keel ballast, and is put in place and glassed over AFTER the keel ballast is installed and glassed over, and is in front of the keel ballast anyway. it's well forward because it's for the sake of trim to compensate for weight in the cockpit.
A problem with small cruisers is that the cockpit is in the back of the boat, and the more weight in the cockpit the more the boat trims aft, which slows it down for a couple of obvious reasons. Sailing dinghies don't have this problem because the skipper and crew sit in the center of the boat, wherever they need to be to trim the boat for best performance. Early in my boatbuilding experience, I was fortunate to be hired to help Lyle Hess make the plugs for the original Balboa 20, which he had designed and was his first fiberglass boat. It was a learning experience for both of us; I learned a tremendous amount about boat building and design, he learned to be patient with a million stupid questions. We strip planked the hull, and as it was taking shape I questioned why the after sections were so full. (hi volume). his answer was that it needed the buoyancy because of weight in the cockpit, to keep the boat from burying the transom. This made sense but I always questioned it a bit. Later, in my studies, I learned that the ideal fore-and-aft center of buoyancy (LCB), in a displacement hull, in terms of performance was 54 to 55% aft, considering only the underbody of the hull. Any deviation of this slows the boat down. When Lyle was designing the M-17 for me I talked him into cleaning up the aft sections a bit and planned to trim the boat as needed using trim ballast. Both the Montgomery 15 and 17 have trim ballast, also the Sages. It worked and is one of the reasons that the M-17 is faster than a Balboa 20. I eased the run aft on the Sages even more, and I'm confident that this is one of the reasons that the Sages are faster. The M-15 and the Sages are all dead on 55%. This factor, along with the prismatic coefficient, are two major "invisible" reasons for differences in performance.
I wouldn't worry about rust in the trim ballast; it's not going to spread into the keel ballast. As Dave says, go sailing.
-----Original Message----- From: Burton Lowry Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 9:43 AM To: Lawrence Winiarski ; For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 rusting ballast
Hi Alex,
One comforting thought is that the older Monty boats are fantastic, and are inexpensive compared to a new Sage due to the fact that certain things on them are going to need attention. Thankfully, most of these can be fixed with sweat equity and a little money. The good news is that almost none of these items are safety hazard issues, and don't need immediate attention especially if we don't need to have a creampuff for a boat.
If you get really frustrated trying to find the source of this water intrusion, welcome to the club! With only a Monty 12, I have no knowledge of the specifics of your boat. However, we have chased leaks for many years on many pocket cruisers.
The obvious suspects are where holes are drilled in the deck and the bedding has failed, hatch boards, and vents.
However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge.
If you are in an area where there is a significant freeze/thaw cycle it can be important to take care of these sorts of leaks so that water expansion does not do serious damage to the boat. Or, make sure your boat is good and dry and then get it covered well before the freeze.
Burt
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:08 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
H'mm You know, maybe we've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe the water that causes the rust comes from the inside through other means (condensation etc..) and soaks through the polyester resin?
In that case, perhaps a coating on the inside (epoxy or paint could be a good thing) Or a good winter cover....
On Monday, April 15, 2019, 6:48:22 PM PDT, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I ike that answer! And knowing the ballast is in resin helps me feel comfortable with the sail n monitor approach (I’d imagined a sloshing mess of rust soup...).
Looking again, I can see a bathtub ring where water sat at one point ahead of the bulge. What would be the likely paths for water to even get in there under the v birth (other than someone hosing off the interior)? Hull deck joint looks solid, and it looks like the bulkhead around the bulge separates it from the rest of the bilge...
Thanks Dave, for all the shared knowledge,
Alex
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 6:31 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Simple answer is, as the board goes up and down with no problems, GO SAILING.
Monitor the situation and if things change then look for options.
More details -
You wrote, 'ballast getting lighter'. It is not unless you start jackhammering it out ;-)
Look along the joint where the trunk joins the bottom of the keel for any cracks. If any are present this is a possible place where water can enter. Cleaning and prepping for an epoxy repair of the cracks (again if any) is an option. Share pictures of what you find. The bottom of the keel photo you shared shows no immediate concerns.
There are some pictures here about repairing the trunk-bottom-of-keel-joint in this MSOG post -
http://www.msog.org/how-to/centerboard/cbrepair_johnson.cfm
ONLY look at the bottom of the keel photos as the in-cabin things, in my opinion, don't relate to your situation.
So when you touching the 'steel hump' you get oil/rust on your hand?
#4 question - the ballast was poured in a couple of layers to limit heat build up as the resin kicked. The hump was then piled up and covered with the glass as you see. The ballast was suppose to be saturated with resin. Injection of anything will only make problems. At this moment, as written above, leave it alone.
#5 - drill NO holes at this time!
#6 - look for damage to the keel and any issues around the rotation pin. Any weeping rust? (Based on what you wrote there are none.). See notes about e looking for cracking along the keel and trunk joint.
Did the prior owner talk about the rust? Can you ask him/her about it? Is this new or has the situation been stable for years and years?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:31 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out the flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be rust stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some rough glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled in it (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no other signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing shape. It does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original .
My questions for all of you: 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about this? Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting lighter :)) 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? What are the options? 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water (I think its been a few years since her last launch)? 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there enough voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are the pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining cutting into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join and the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to the ballast?
I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel and replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site but came up cold..
Many thanks for all your thoughts-
Alex Conley
Interesting Montgomery 15 story totally unrelated to this pivot pin and ballast conversation: At one point in my life a few years ago, I moved to a house where I no longer could keep my 15 on her trailer in the driveway. There was no space. A man I had done some work for had a factory with a huge parking lot in the back, with a gate and security. I called and talked to him, and he kindly let me temporarily store my boat in his lot. I covered her with a plastic tarp in a way that would allow rainwater to roll off. After it was there for about 6 months, and an unusually heavy rainy season, I had an uneasy feeling about my boat, and made a trip to check up on her. The boat had been moved by the man's employees, and my tarp setup was moved in order to roll the trailer to a different spot. It was never put back in place. During all the rain, the tarp laying on the aft end of the boat had formed a waterproof membrane and the cockpit was filled all the way up to about a half inch of spilling through the companionway door. When i saw this, I panicked. I knew that i couldn't pull the plastic up. I knew the only way to empty the cockpit was to slice the plastic and let the water drain into the self bailing cockpit. I couldn't imagine the weight of that water. I climbed up onto the boat to find a place to make a cut. I was so upset, that it hadnt occured to me that the trailer tongue which was up on a block made this a very unstable situation. When I stepped onto the boat, my added weight tipped the scale. The water started to rush aft, and the boat crashed aft end into the parking lot, with an unbelievably powerful force. The boat was bow up at a huge angle, which frightened the heck out of me to see. I had fallen down into the water as well. I got up, got out of the boat and somehow got her back down again. I think I may have just moved forward, I'm not sure anymore because I was so upset. I had just assumed that my prized boat that I took such good care of was going to be smashed, a total loss. I felt devastated. I was on the ground, and walked aft to see the trajedy. Here's the happy ending: Not only was she in one piece, there was not the slightest crack, chip in the gelcoat. Nothing. I kept running my hand on the point of impact. Not the slightest damage could I detect. It landed right on the tip of the aft part of the keel, so I assumed it would be less stout than other parts of the hull. I was wrong. I realized at that moment how strong this boat actually is.The other huge gift from above: not one drop of water ever went below, which would have been a disaster. Now I keep her in the driveway of my current home, under a covered frame, so I don't have to worry again. *Miracles DO happen.* On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 1:56 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jerry- knowing the hump is separate from the keel cavity eliminates all my worries. Other than sealing a few spider web cracks in the gelcoat around the pivot pin, I think I'm good to go sailing!
And Burton, unless I see new water, I'm going to assume the water was from overzealous spraying as the previous owners grand kids prepared the boat for sale. Why worry now when you can worry later? Overall amazed at what good condition this boat is in for 32 years old.
Now on to more important things, like buying a hiking stick so I can slide around to keep the boat trimmed to 55% aft- Jerry, your mini-lessons in naval architecture and how these boats were constructed is invaluable!
Alex
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:48 AM <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
The "lump" under the fwd berth is trim ballast and not part of the keel ballast, and is put in place and glassed over AFTER the keel ballast is installed and glassed over, and is in front of the keel ballast anyway. it's well forward because it's for the sake of trim to compensate for weight in the cockpit.
A problem with small cruisers is that the cockpit is in the back of the boat, and the more weight in the cockpit the more the boat trims aft, which slows it down for a couple of obvious reasons. Sailing dinghies don't have this problem because the skipper and crew sit in the center of the boat, wherever they need to be to trim the boat for best performance. Early in my boatbuilding experience, I was fortunate to be hired to help Lyle Hess make the plugs for the original Balboa 20, which he had designed and was his first fiberglass boat. It was a learning experience for both of us; I learned a tremendous amount about boat building and design, he learned to be patient with a million stupid questions. We strip planked the hull, and as it was taking shape I questioned why the after sections were so full. (hi volume). his answer was that it needed the buoyancy because of weight in the cockpit, to keep the boat from burying the transom. This made sense but I always questioned it a bit. Later, in my studies, I learned that the ideal fore-and-aft center of buoyancy (LCB), in a displacement hull, in terms of performance was 54 to 55% aft, considering only the underbody of the hull. Any deviation of this slows the boat down. When Lyle was designing the M-17 for me I talked him into cleaning up the aft sections a bit and planned to trim the boat as needed using trim ballast. Both the Montgomery 15 and 17 have trim ballast, also the Sages. It worked and is one of the reasons that the M-17 is faster than a Balboa 20. I eased the run aft on the Sages even more, and I'm confident that this is one of the reasons that the Sages are faster. The M-15 and the Sages are all dead on 55%. This factor, along with the prismatic coefficient, are two major "invisible" reasons for differences in performance.
I wouldn't worry about rust in the trim ballast; it's not going to spread into the keel ballast. As Dave says, go sailing.
-----Original Message----- From: Burton Lowry Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 9:43 AM To: Lawrence Winiarski ; For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 rusting ballast
Hi Alex,
One comforting thought is that the older Monty boats are fantastic, and are inexpensive compared to a new Sage due to the fact that certain things on them are going to need attention. Thankfully, most of these can be fixed with sweat equity and a little money. The good news is that almost none of these items are safety hazard issues, and don't need immediate attention especially if we don't need to have a creampuff for a boat.
If you get really frustrated trying to find the source of this water intrusion, welcome to the club! With only a Monty 12, I have no knowledge of the specifics of your boat. However, we have chased leaks for many years on many pocket cruisers.
The obvious suspects are where holes are drilled in the deck and the bedding has failed, hatch boards, and vents.
However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge.
If you are in an area where there is a significant freeze/thaw cycle it can be important to take care of these sorts of leaks so that water expansion does not do serious damage to the boat. Or, make sure your boat is good and dry and then get it covered well before the freeze.
Burt
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:08 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
H'mm You know, maybe we've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe the water that causes the rust comes from the inside through other means (condensation etc..) and soaks through the polyester resin?
In that case, perhaps a coating on the inside (epoxy or paint could be a good thing) Or a good winter cover....
On Monday, April 15, 2019, 6:48:22 PM PDT, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I ike that answer! And knowing the ballast is in resin helps me feel comfortable with the sail n monitor approach (I’d imagined a sloshing mess of rust soup...).
Looking again, I can see a bathtub ring where water sat at one point ahead of the bulge. What would be the likely paths for water to even get in there under the v birth (other than someone hosing off the interior)? Hull deck joint looks solid, and it looks like the bulkhead around the bulge separates it from the rest of the bilge...
Thanks Dave, for all the shared knowledge,
Alex
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 6:31 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Alex:
Simple answer is, as the board goes up and down with no problems, GO SAILING.
Monitor the situation and if things change then look for options.
More details -
You wrote, 'ballast getting lighter'. It is not unless you start jackhammering it out ;-)
Look along the joint where the trunk joins the bottom of the keel for any cracks. If any are present this is a possible place where water can enter. Cleaning and prepping for an epoxy repair of the cracks (again if any) is an option. Share pictures of what you find. The bottom of the keel photo you shared shows no immediate concerns.
There are some pictures here about repairing the trunk-bottom-of-keel-joint in this MSOG post -
http://www.msog.org/how-to/centerboard/cbrepair_johnson.cfm
ONLY look at the bottom of the keel photos as the in-cabin things, in my opinion, don't relate to your situation.
So when you touching the 'steel hump' you get oil/rust on your hand?
#4 question - the ballast was poured in a couple of layers to limit heat build up as the resin kicked. The hump was then piled up and covered with the glass as you see. The ballast was suppose to be saturated with resin. Injection of anything will only make problems. At this moment, as written above, leave it alone.
#5 - drill NO holes at this time!
#6 - look for damage to the keel and any issues around the rotation pin. Any weeping rust? (Based on what you wrote there are none.). See notes about e looking for cracking along the keel and trunk joint.
Did the prior owner talk about the rust? Can you ask him/her about it? Is this new or has the situation been stable for years and years?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Sun, Apr 14, 2019, 10:31 PM Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
I finally opened up the fore peak on my new to me M15 and pulled out the flotation to look at the hump over the ballast, and found it to be rust stained and oozing some mix of rust, oil and water There is some rough glass roving over the hump, with some rusting ballast pellets tangled in it (see photo 1012). The centerboard is not binding, and there are no other signs of leaks/rust stains etc- the boat is otherwise in amazing shape. It does look like someone may have reworked the hull/trunk join in the past(photo 0999 attached) and pivot pin is not original .
My questions for all of you: 1. Given that the board is not binding, how much should I worry about this? Is the rust causing other damage (other than the ballast getting lighter :)) 2. Are there steps that should be done to stabilize the situation? What are the options? 3. Is it critical that it be dealt with before I put her in the water (I think its been a few years since her last launch)? 4. Is the hump and the keel all one big connected space? Are there enough voids in the fill to inject an oil or other rust preventative? Are the pellets just loose, or in some kind of matrix (now I'm imagining cutting into the hump and using a magnet on a rod to remove pellets...) 5. If one were to drill a drain hole, what is the best location? 6. Any guides out there for resealing the hull/centerboard trunk join and the interior of the trunk? Other areas to look at re water entry to the ballast?
I've heard people mentioning going whole hog and removing the steel and replacing it with lead. Can anyone point me to more info on what is involved in doing that for an m15? I tried searching the photo site but came up cold..
Many thanks for all your thoughts-
Alex Conley
Good discussion about possible places a leak can result in water getting into the cabin & bilge Burt. The M15, all Sages (17, 15, SageCat) and the M17s with teak toe rails have a bulletproof hull/deck joint. No weak tiny seam and no flimsy PVC. See picture attached/below. (Pic shows a Sage 17 section as Jerry designed the joints on all the boats - Sage 17's is even stronger as it is carbon fiber!) :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:45 AM Burton Lowry <burtonlowry7@gmail.com> wrote: However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck
joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge.
Burt
Thanks Dave, What about the older M17s with aluminum extrusion? There are certainly lots of screws along the hull-deck joint. What I can't tell is how much overlap etc. and how it was originally sealed. Mine seems quite tight, except there is one place on port side just about amidships (just aft of where the cockpit starts) where, if there's a lot of water along the rail and over that joint (heavy rain, washing the boat, etc.) a small amount of water runs down the inside of the hull. It could be the winch mount leaking, so I will bed that and see. But still curious about the older M17 joint. cheers, John On 04/16/2019 06:13 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Good discussion about possible places a leak can result in water getting into the cabin & bilge Burt.
The M15, all Sages (17, 15, SageCat) and the M17s with teak toe rails have a bulletproof hull/deck joint. No weak tiny seam and no flimsy PVC. See picture attached/below. (Pic shows a Sage 17 section as Jerry designed the joints on all the boats - Sage 17's is even stronger as it is carbon fiber!)
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:45 AM Burton Lowry <burtonlowry7@gmail.com> wrote:
However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck
joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge.
Burt
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John: Here is a link to MSOGphotosite that shows the M17 aluminum toe rail setup - http://msogphotosite.com/Scripts/StoryTechnical/storytechnicaldetail.php?id=... The overlap in the joint is much smaller but very strong because of the aluminum extrusion. Looking at the above link's drawings you can see how much less overlap there is. For this reason some of these 17s have leaks if the joint is damaged (VERY rare). Still super strong and not going to let the deck come off the hull! :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 7:55 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Dave,
What about the older M17s with aluminum extrusion? There are certainly lots of screws along the hull-deck joint. What I can't tell is how much overlap etc. and how it was originally sealed. Mine seems quite tight, except there is one place on port side just about amidships (just aft of where the cockpit starts) where, if there's a lot of water along the rail and over that joint (heavy rain, washing the boat, etc.) a small amount of water runs down the inside of the hull. It could be the winch mount leaking, so I will bed that and see. But still curious about the older M17 joint.
cheers, John
On 04/16/2019 06:13 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Good discussion about possible places a leak can result in water getting into the cabin & bilge Burt.
The M15, all Sages (17, 15, SageCat) and the M17s with teak toe rails have a bulletproof hull/deck joint. No weak tiny seam and no flimsy PVC. See picture attached/below. (Pic shows a Sage 17 section as Jerry designed the joints on all the boats - Sage 17's is even stronger as it is carbon fiber!)
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:45 AM Burton Lowry <burtonlowry7@gmail.com> wrote:
However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck
joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge.
Burt
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Great, thanks. Mine might just be some age of the sealant, like in the write-up - thanks Howard for the write-up! Or, it might be the winch bolt holess...will try that first. I've bedded various items topsides with butyl tape and ended several small oozing leaks, but haven't done the winches yet. cheers, John On 04/16/2019 08:03 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
John:
Here is a link to MSOGphotosite that shows the M17 aluminum toe rail setup -
http://msogphotosite.com/Scripts/StoryTechnical/storytechnicaldetail.php?id=...
The overlap in the joint is much smaller but very strong because of the aluminum extrusion. Looking at the above link's drawings you can see how much less overlap there is. For this reason some of these 17s have leaks if the joint is damaged (VERY rare). Still super strong and not going to let the deck come off the hull!
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 7:55 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Dave,
What about the older M17s with aluminum extrusion? There are certainly lots of screws along the hull-deck joint. What I can't tell is how much overlap etc. and how it was originally sealed. Mine seems quite tight, except there is one place on port side just about amidships (just aft of where the cockpit starts) where, if there's a lot of water along the rail and over that joint (heavy rain, washing the boat, etc.) a small amount of water runs down the inside of the hull. It could be the winch mount leaking, so I will bed that and see. But still curious about the older M17 joint.
cheers, John
On 04/16/2019 06:13 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Good discussion about possible places a leak can result in water getting into the cabin & bilge Burt.
The M15, all Sages (17, 15, SageCat) and the M17s with teak toe rails have a bulletproof hull/deck joint. No weak tiny seam and no flimsy PVC. See picture attached/below. (Pic shows a Sage 17 section as Jerry designed the joints on all the boats - Sage 17's is even stronger as it is carbon fiber!)
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:45 AM Burton Lowry <burtonlowry7@gmail.com> wrote:
However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck
joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge.
Burt
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Just keep the water out of the balsa! -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 8:26 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 hull/deck joint Great, thanks. Mine might just be some age of the sealant, like in the write-up - thanks Howard for the write-up! Or, it might be the winch bolt holess...will try that first. I've bedded various items topsides with butyl tape and ended several small oozing leaks, but haven't done the winches yet. cheers, John On 04/16/2019 08:03 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
John:
Here is a link to MSOGphotosite that shows the M17 aluminum toe rail setup -
http://msogphotosite.com/Scripts/StoryTechnical/storytechnicaldetail.php?id=...
The overlap in the joint is much smaller but very strong because of the aluminum extrusion. Looking at the above link's drawings you can see how much less overlap there is. For this reason some of these 17s have leaks if the joint is damaged (VERY rare). Still super strong and not going to let the deck come off the hull!
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 7:55 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Dave,
What about the older M17s with aluminum extrusion? There are certainly lots of screws along the hull-deck joint. What I can't tell is how much overlap etc. and how it was originally sealed. Mine seems quite tight, except there is one place on port side just about amidships (just aft of where the cockpit starts) where, if there's a lot of water along the rail and over that joint (heavy rain, washing the boat, etc.) a small amount of water runs down the inside of the hull. It could be the winch mount leaking, so I will bed that and see. But still curious about the older M17 joint.
cheers, John
On 04/16/2019 06:13 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Good discussion about possible places a leak can result in water getting into the cabin & bilge Burt.
The M15, all Sages (17, 15, SageCat) and the M17s with teak toe rails have a bulletproof hull/deck joint. No weak tiny seam and no flimsy PVC. See picture attached/below. (Pic shows a Sage 17 section as Jerry designed the joints on all the boats - Sage 17's is even stronger as it is carbon fiber!)
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:45 AM Burton Lowry <burtonlowry7@gmail.com> wrote:
However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck
joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge.
Burt
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
No worries...there's no balsa with any holes through it in my M17 (#38) - no balsa at all, that I'm aware of. Cabin reinforcement fore and aft of chainplates and under mast step is glassed-in half-tubes, as is fore-deck reinforcement. Cockpit floor is foam, starboard cockpit locker lid is I assume foam also. Port locker lid was some kind of previous owner hack job of foam, which I replaced with some epoxy-sealed plywood (there's a thread on the list some time back on that). Thanks for the history on the Balboa hull and the Montgomery trim ballast innovation...I was wondering what the hump just forward of the v-berth bulkhead on mine was for. I had an Ensenada 20 briefly, same hull as Balboa; she did have a nice volume in the stern, now I know why. cheers, John On 04/16/2019 09:53 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
Just keep the water out of the balsa!
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 8:26 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 hull/deck joint
Great, thanks. Mine might just be some age of the sealant, like in the write-up - thanks Howard for the write-up! Or, it might be the winch bolt holess...will try that first. I've bedded various items topsides with butyl tape and ended several small oozing leaks, but haven't done the winches yet.
cheers, John
On 04/16/2019 08:03 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
John:
Here is a link to MSOGphotosite that shows the M17 aluminum toe rail setup -
http://msogphotosite.com/Scripts/StoryTechnical/storytechnicaldetail.php?id=...
The overlap in the joint is much smaller but very strong because of the aluminum extrusion. Looking at the above link's drawings you can see how much less overlap there is. For this reason some of these 17s have leaks if the joint is damaged (VERY rare). Still super strong and not going to let the deck come off the hull!
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 7:55 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Dave,
What about the older M17s with aluminum extrusion? There are certainly lots of screws along the hull-deck joint. What I can't tell is how much overlap etc. and how it was originally sealed. Mine seems quite tight, except there is one place on port side just about amidships (just aft of where the cockpit starts) where, if there's a lot of water along the rail and over that joint (heavy rain, washing the boat, etc.) a small amount of water runs down the inside of the hull. It could be the winch mount leaking, so I will bed that and see. But still curious about the older M17 joint.
cheers, John
On 04/16/2019 06:13 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Good discussion about possible places a leak can result in water getting into the cabin & bilge Burt.
The M15, all Sages (17, 15, SageCat) and the M17s with teak toe rails have a bulletproof hull/deck joint. No weak tiny seam and no flimsy PVC. See picture attached/below. (Pic shows a Sage 17 section as Jerry designed the joints on all the boats - Sage 17's is even stronger as it is carbon fiber!)
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 9:45 AM Burton Lowry <burtonlowry7@gmail.com> wrote:
However, the insidious ones for us have usually been the hull to deck
joint. The outside seal would have failed, allowing water to sit against the joint under the rub rail, and the inside looked perfectly sealed, as it was resin and tape, but not gel coated. The water could then seep through all along the joint in very small amounts, but would eventually collect in the bilge.
Burt
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (7)
-
Alex Conley -
Burton Lowry -
Dave Scobie -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
John Schinnerer -
Lawrence Winiarski -
Paul Baker