I've mostly towed my Montgomery 15 with two Toyota trucks, both 4 wheel drive manual transmission. One was 2.2 liter 4 cylinder, one is 3.4 liter 6 cylinder. Both pulled the boat fine with the 4 cylinder being a bit slower up grades or in headwinds. The main issue I have experienced towing with these trucks has not had to do with pulling but has had to do with braking. I live in a mountainous area with steep grades several miles long on ways to and from places I sail. Getting up these grades can be slow but it is getting down that gets my attention. Controlling speed can be a challenge, even using lower gears, but needing to stop unexpectedly on top of maintaining speed is what I am usually most concerned about. I assume my trucks have "stronger" brakes than the cars discussed here on this forum but don't see anyone discussing braking. I like the idea of towing with a car smaller than my trucks, but I wonder about how well these cars can brake under challenging conditions. Anyone have experience towing with a car in challenging braking conditions? David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky Sent from my iPhone
On 8/26/2015 12:16 PM, David Grah via montgomery_boats wrote: I towed our M15 with a VW-Jetta wagon (automatic), but coming down a short very steep grade on a very twisty road in the Adirondacks, I found that I was almost out of braking power. Luckily for us, we were now at the bottom of the grade..... However, I very seriously started looking into trailer brakes, and was planning to equip our trailer with power brakes, to assist the car brakes. As you so nicely put earlier, David, pulling the load isn't the problem; but stopping the load is. Connie, a True Believer in More Brakes are Better....
I've mostly towed my Montgomery 15 with two Toyot a trucks, both 4 wheel drive manual transmission. One was 2.2 liter 4 cylinder, one is 3.4 liter 6 cylinder.
Both pulled the boat fine with the 4 cylinder being a bit slower up grades or in headwinds. The main issue I have experienced towing with these trucks has not had to do with pulling but has had to do with braking.
I live in a mountainous area with steep grades several miles long on ways to and from places I sail. Getting up these grades can be slow but it is getting down that gets my attention. Controlling speed can be a challenge, even using lower gears, but needing to stop unexpectedly on top of maintaining speed is what I am usually most concerned about.
I assume my trucks have "stronger" brakes than the cars discussed here on this forum but don't see anyone discussing braking. I like the idea of towing with a car smaller than my trucks, but I wonder about how well these cars can brake under challenging conditions. Anyone have experience towing with a car in challenging braking conditions?
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
Sent from my iPhone
Yeah, braking is the big deal to me. A bit slow up the hills is not a big deal compared to braking safety. I will respond to this with my experiences later this month. Getting my E20 (similar to M-17 weight, maybe a little heavier) from Klamath Lake to Ashland (Oregon) will involve a dozen miles of winding and sometimes steep (secondary highway, grades up to 6%) downhills. I will definitely be using engine braking with the manual trans. My 2001 Outback has slightly better than stock brakes, and from 2001 the factory brakes are pretty solid anyhow on the Outbacks (the 2000 is weak in that area, they beefed them up for 2001 and onward). cheers, John S. On 08/26/2015 10:16 AM, David Grah via montgomery_boats wrote:
I've mostly towed my Montgomery 15 with two Toyota trucks, both 4 wheel drive manual transmission. One was 2.2 liter 4 cylinder, one is 3.4 liter 6 cylinder.
Both pulled the boat fine with the 4 cylinder being a bit slower up grades or in headwinds. The main issue I have experienced towing with these trucks has not had to do with pulling but has had to do with braking.
I live in a mountainous area with steep grades several miles long on ways to and from places I sail. Getting up these grades can be slow but it is getting down that gets my attention. Controlling speed can be a challenge, even using lower gears, but needing to stop unexpectedly on top of maintaining speed is what I am usually most concerned about.
I assume my trucks have "stronger" brakes than the cars discussed here on this forum but don't see anyone discussing braking. I like the idea of towing with a car smaller than my trucks, but I wonder about how well these cars can brake under challenging conditions. Anyone have experience towing with a car in challenging braking conditions?
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
Sent from my iPhone
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
David, I've done a lot of heavy towing with passenger cars in the mountains of California- even bringing my 3,000lb Catalina 22 up to Big Bear Lake (~7,000 feet) twice with a Volvo 740 Turbo. That was exactly the maximum factory towing weight the car was rated for, and it did it without problems. Any car has enough braking to stop a trailer when the brakes are cold- but as the small brakes on a car heat up one of two things happens. Either the brake fluid boils, or the pads heat to the point that they lose gripping properties (brake fade). I addressed those concerns on the Volvo by using a high boiling point brake fluid (ATE Blue fluid) changed every year, and ceramic "racing" brake pads which make a lot of dust, but don't fade much at high temperature. I also found that even with a small 4 cylinder engine- if I went down the hill at low speed in a low gear (high rpm), the engine braking was able to limit the vehicle speed without using the brakes at all. This keeps them completely cold, and 100% available for an unexpected emergency stop. In every case when I came down a steep mountain grade with a heavy boat in a small passenger car, my brakes were cold too the touch at the bottom of the hill. Also, the size of brakes varies a lot from car to car. Cars designed more for "sporty" driving often have very oversized brakes, perhaps even more than a truck relative to their size, in order to manage the temperatures from aggressive driving. An economy car not designed for aggressive driving will likely have tiny front brakes, and may even have drums on the rear which overheat easily. Often the same model of car the more "sporty" trim package will have much stronger brakes, and usually these can even be purchased and installed on the lower end trim package cars. The Volvo Turbo for example, had more substantial brakes than the non-turbo model of the same car. Tyler Davis, CA '85 M15 #157 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Grah via montgomery_boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 10:16:51 AM Subject: M_Boats: Towing (braking) I've mostly towed my Montgomery 15 with two Toyota trucks, both 4 wheel drive manual transmission. One was 2.2 liter 4 cylinder, one is 3.4 liter 6 cylinder. Both pulled the boat fine with the 4 cylinder being a bit slower up grades or in headwinds. The main issue I have experienced towing with these trucks has not had to do with pulling but has had to do with braking. I live in a mountainous area with steep grades several miles long on ways to and from places I sail. Getting up these grades can be slow but it is getting down that gets my attention. Controlling speed can be a challenge, even using lower gears, but needing to stop unexpectedly on top of maintaining speed is what I am usually most concerned about. I assume my trucks have "stronger" brakes than the cars discussed here on this forum but don't see anyone discussing braking. I like the idea of towing with a car smaller than my trucks, but I wonder about how well these cars can brake under challenging conditions. Anyone have experience towing with a car in challenging braking conditions? David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
My experience with Vovlvos has been that they deliver what has been advertised, but I can not say that about my experience with a Subaru. Steve M-15 # 335 ----- Original Message ----- From: <casioqv@usermail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 10:50 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Towing (braking)
David,
I've done a lot of heavy towing with passenger cars in the mountains of California- even bringing my 3,000lb Catalina 22 up to Big Bear Lake (~7,000 feet) twice with a Volvo 740 Turbo. That was exactly the maximum factory towing weight the car was rated for, and it did it without problems.
Any car has enough braking to stop a trailer when the brakes are cold- but as the small brakes on a car heat up one of two things happens. Either the brake fluid boils, or the pads heat to the point that they lose gripping properties (brake fade). I addressed those concerns on the Volvo by using a high boiling point brake fluid (ATE Blue fluid) changed every year, and ceramic "racing" brake pads which make a lot of dust, but don't fade much at high temperature.
I also found that even with a small 4 cylinder engine- if I went down the hill at low speed in a low gear (high rpm), the engine braking was able to limit the vehicle speed without using the brakes at all. This keeps them completely cold, and 100% available for an unexpected emergency stop. In every case when I came down a steep mountain grade with a heavy boat in a small passenger car, my brakes were cold too the touch at the bottom of the hill.
Also, the size of brakes varies a lot from car to car. Cars designed more for "sporty" driving often have very oversized brakes, perhaps even more than a truck relative to their size, in order to manage the temperatures from aggressive driving. An economy car not designed for aggressive driving will likely have tiny front brakes, and may even have drums on the rear which overheat easily. Often the same model of car the more "sporty" trim package will have much stronger brakes, and usually these can even be purchased and installed on the lower end trim package cars. The Volvo Turbo for example, had more substantial brakes than the non-turbo model of the same car.
Tyler Davis, CA '85 M15 #157
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Grah via montgomery_boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 10:16:51 AM Subject: M_Boats: Towing (braking)
I've mostly towed my Montgomery 15 with two Toyota trucks, both 4 wheel drive manual transmission. One was 2.2 liter 4 cylinder, one is 3.4 liter 6 cylinder.
Both pulled the boat fine with the 4 cylinder being a bit slower up grades or in headwinds. The main issue I have experienced towing with these trucks has not had to do with pulling but has had to do with braking.
I live in a mountainous area with steep grades several miles long on ways to and from places I sail. Getting up these grades can be slow but it is getting down that gets my attention. Controlling speed can be a challenge, even using lower gears, but needing to stop unexpectedly on top of maintaining speed is what I am usually most concerned about.
I assume my trucks have "stronger" brakes than the cars discussed here on this forum but don't see anyone discussing braking. I like the idea of towing with a car smaller than my trucks, but I wonder about how well these cars can brake under challenging conditions. Anyone have experience towing with a car in challenging braking conditions?
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4365/9875 - Release Date: 05/26/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
I'll be finding out... :-! And will let y'all know what I find (about my Subaru anyhow). What Tyler wrote I ditto, that's the way I know to deal with towing at the limit of a vehicle's rating. For on the road at speed, appropriate tongue weight and fore/aft balance of trailer is key. Years ago I towed a 22-ft Airstream my brother used to own down from the Sierra foothills to the SF Bay area. Rented a big heavy powerful full size pickup from Hertz. No issues with power, or brakes. But the trailer was out of balance. Probably because it had been gutted and customized inside in various ways. Too much weight towards the rear is my guess, too light on the tongue. I couldn't go over about 52-53 MPH (maybe 55 on dead straight stretches) or it would start to fishtail. And even a little bit, in a big rig like that, was scary. Slow lane all the way... cheers, John S. On 08/26/2015 11:22 AM, stevetrapp wrote:
My experience with Vovlvos has been that they deliver what has been advertised, but I can not say that about my experience with a Subaru. Steve M-15 # 335
----- Original Message ----- From: <casioqv@usermail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 10:50 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Towing (braking)
David,
I've done a lot of heavy towing with passenger cars in the mountains of California- even bringing my 3,000lb Catalina 22 up to Big Bear Lake (~7,000 feet) twice with a Volvo 740 Turbo. That was exactly the maximum factory towing weight the car was rated for, and it did it without problems.
Any car has enough braking to stop a trailer when the brakes are cold- but as the small brakes on a car heat up one of two things happens. Either the brake fluid boils, or the pads heat to the point that they lose gripping properties (brake fade). I addressed those concerns on the Volvo by using a high boiling point brake fluid (ATE Blue fluid) changed every year, and ceramic "racing" brake pads which make a lot of dust, but don't fade much at high temperature.
I also found that even with a small 4 cylinder engine- if I went down the hill at low speed in a low gear (high rpm), the engine braking was able to limit the vehicle speed without using the brakes at all. This keeps them completely cold, and 100% available for an unexpected emergency stop. In every case when I came down a steep mountain grade with a heavy boat in a small passenger car, my brakes were cold too the touch at the bottom of the hill.
Also, the size of brakes varies a lot from car to car. Cars designed more for "sporty" driving often have very oversized brakes, perhaps even more than a truck relative to their size, in order to manage the temperatures from aggressive driving. An economy car not designed for aggressive driving will likely have tiny front brakes, and may even have drums on the rear which overheat easily. Often the same model of car the more "sporty" trim package will have much stronger brakes, and usually these can even be purchased and installed on the lower end trim package cars. The Volvo Turbo for example, had more substantial brakes than the non-turbo model of the same car.
Tyler Davis, CA '85 M15 #157
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Grah via montgomery_boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "montgomery boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 10:16:51 AM Subject: M_Boats: Towing (braking)
I've mostly towed my Montgomery 15 with two Toyota trucks, both 4 wheel drive manual transmission. One was 2.2 liter 4 cylinder, one is 3.4 liter 6 cylinder.
Both pulled the boat fine with the 4 cylinder being a bit slower up grades or in headwinds. The main issue I have experienced towing with these trucks has not had to do with pulling but has had to do with braking.
I live in a mountainous area with steep grades several miles long on ways to and from places I sail. Getting up these grades can be slow but it is getting down that gets my attention. Controlling speed can be a challenge, even using lower gears, but needing to stop unexpectedly on top of maintaining speed is what I am usually most concerned about.
I assume my trucks have "stronger" brakes than the cars discussed here on this forum but don't see anyone discussing braking. I like the idea of towing with a car smaller than my trucks, but I wonder about how well these cars can brake under challenging conditions. Anyone have experience towing with a car in challenging braking conditions?
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 - Sky
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4800 / Virus Database: 4365/9875 - Release Date: 05/26/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Flew the 30 year old spinnaker on my M-17 over the weekend, it's a .5oz spinnaker, and it began to rip. I used the Sail Ripair tape, and patched it up, but I'll need to replace it fairly soon. I'd be interested in what the group thinks make a good spinnaker, and how they'd replace what I have. I'd really be interested in input from Hyde Sails representative here, and any other M-17 sailors with experience.
Harry with Elliott/Pattison sailmakers can make you a spinnaker ... he is also 100% made in the USA. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com> wrote:
Flew the 30 year old spinnaker on my M-17 over the weekend, it's a .5oz spinnaker, and it began to rip. I used the Sail Ripair tape, and patched it up, but I'll need to replace it fairly soon. I'd be interested in what the group thinks make a good spinnaker, and how they'd replace what I have. I'd really be interested in input from Hyde Sails representative here, and any other M-17 sailors with experience.
participants (7)
-
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
David Grah -
John Schinnerer -
stevetrapp -
Thomas Howe