Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right. There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight. I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower. David GrahBishop California Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 12:33:02 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 Message-ID: <265d552f-eb30-27f0-11ea-ee3c61bf235a@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Last year I did some practical real-world tests of my Honda 2.3 hp long shaft on my 1974 M17. This was at Fern Ridge reservoir near Eugene, OR, where conditions ranged from completely glassy to whitecaps and gusts 20+. My conclusion was that as an auxiliary, the 2.3 is enough motor for an M17. Including with a furling jib (which I have) - a bit more windage forward than hank-on. In light air to glassy conditions, my results were: At the minimum throttle to fully engage the clutch, I was cruising at ~3 knots. At about 1/3 throttle - roughly where the 'start' position (little rabbit symbol) is on the throttle - I was cruising at ~4 knots. Next morning in completely glassy conditions I repeated the tests - same results as above. Then I went up to half throttle, which got me up to 4.7-4.8 knots. NOTE we are getting up to 3/4 or maybe 4/5 of hull speed here... More throttle had, as expected when getting close to hull speed, rapidly diminishing returns, adding at most .2 knots as I put it up to ~3/4 throttle. The motor being new and not even close to broken in per Honda's recommendations, I didn't want to run it any higher at that point. Third day was quite windy all day until late afternoon. 15-20+ with gusts probably to 25. I motored out and tried the same throttle settings direct into the heavy wind and chop, and also at quartering angles. On average I lost only .5-.6 knot of speed from the strong headwinds. So for example the 1/3 throttle that gave 4 knots in calm/glassy gave ~3.5 knots into the wind. Half throttle would give ~4.1-4.2 knots instead of 4.7-4.8. The strongest gusts would briefly take that down another .1 knot. I then sailed for a while, with reefed main and as much jib rolled out as I felt comfortable with. Did consistently 4-5 knots, maxed out at 5.6 knots at some point. I had expected more of a hit on speed into the wind actually, with the "small" motor. So I'm pretty happy, at 31 lbs and high simplicity and what seems like great fuel economy, with a Honda 2.3 on my M17. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com ------------------------------
Motoring into wind like that , 40+kts, isn't something even a large displacement boat with an inboard would happily do. Going straight into the seas usually isn't going to work so approaching the wind at an angle, depends on seas and obstacles, can keep the boat speed up and provide rudder control. If you could reef down enough it is better to sail (I've done 35+ double reefed in a SageCat and Sage 17 with two reefs and storm jib). M15 under main alone is a dog - must keep headsail and some mainsail tension to go to weather. Best to find place to hide for a while if sailing or motoring a bit off the wind isn't an option. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Thu, May 21, 2020, 12:55 PM David Grah via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right. There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower. David GrahBishop California
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 12:33:02 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 Message-ID: <265d552f-eb30-27f0-11ea-ee3c61bf235a@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Last year I did some practical real-world tests of my Honda 2.3 hp long shaft on my 1974 M17. This was at Fern Ridge reservoir near Eugene, OR, where conditions ranged from completely glassy to whitecaps and gusts 20+.
My conclusion was that as an auxiliary, the 2.3 is enough motor for an M17. Including with a furling jib (which I have) - a bit more windage forward than hank-on.
In light air to glassy conditions, my results were:
At the minimum throttle to fully engage the clutch, I was cruising at ~3 knots.
At about 1/3 throttle - roughly where the 'start' position (little rabbit symbol) is on the throttle - I was cruising at ~4 knots.
Next morning in completely glassy conditions I repeated the tests - same results as above.
Then I went up to half throttle, which got me up to 4.7-4.8 knots. NOTE we are getting up to 3/4 or maybe 4/5 of hull speed here...
More throttle had, as expected when getting close to hull speed, rapidly diminishing returns, adding at most .2 knots as I put it up to ~3/4 throttle.
The motor being new and not even close to broken in per Honda's recommendations, I didn't want to run it any higher at that point.
Third day was quite windy all day until late afternoon. 15-20+ with gusts probably to 25.
I motored out and tried the same throttle settings direct into the heavy wind and chop, and also at quartering angles.
On average I lost only .5-.6 knot of speed from the strong headwinds. So for example the 1/3 throttle that gave 4 knots in calm/glassy gave ~3.5 knots into the wind. Half throttle would give ~4.1-4.2 knots instead of 4.7-4.8. The strongest gusts would briefly take that down another .1 knot.
I then sailed for a while, with reefed main and as much jib rolled out as I felt comfortable with. Did consistently 4-5 knots, maxed out at 5.6 knots at some point.
I had expected more of a hit on speed into the wind actually, with the "small" motor. So I'm pretty happy, at 31 lbs and high simplicity and what seems like great fuel economy, with a Honda 2.3 on my M17.
cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp. Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 Defiant ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right. There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight. I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower. David GrahBishop California
With more room (Lake Powell was pretty narrow right there) and more motivation, we may have sailed. Easier and probably better for us in this case, just to find a good spot and wait it out. On Thursday, May 21, 2020, 1:43:59 PM PDT, casioqv@usermail.com <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote: The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp. Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 Defiant ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right. There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight. I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower. David GrahBishop California
Wind resistance is in general proportional to square of speed...so if you were actually getting 40+ mph wind, that is way more than twice the resistance of 20 mph wind. Wicked conditions! At some point the windage of the boat, angle to wind, plus the limitation of hull speed, plus wave/chop resistance, puts one in the position of simply being overpowered. No amount of mere horsepower will overcome that because the other factors override it. Sounds like you were pretty much in that situation...glad you were able to get to a safe spot. Reminds me of being out with Daniel on Tomales Bay, only that was not quite as wicked. He said later that the wind records for the day said 20-25. In any case it was gusting enough that we could not make any speed over ground under sail to windward, so had to drop sails and motor. cheers, John On 5/21/20 12:54 PM, David Grah wrote:
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right.
There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower.
David Grah Bishop California
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 12:33:02 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net <mailto:john@eco-living.net>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 Message-ID: <265d552f-eb30-27f0-11ea-ee3c61bf235a@eco-living.net <mailto:265d552f-eb30-27f0-11ea-ee3c61bf235a@eco-living.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Last year I did some practical real-world tests of my Honda 2.3 hp long shaft on my 1974 M17. This was at Fern Ridge reservoir near Eugene, OR, where conditions ranged from completely glassy to whitecaps and gusts 20+.
My conclusion was that as an auxiliary, the 2.3 is enough motor for an M17. Including with a furling jib (which I have) - a bit more windage forward than hank-on.
In light air to glassy conditions, my results were:
At the minimum throttle to fully engage the clutch, I was cruising at ~3 knots.
At about 1/3 throttle - roughly where the 'start' position (little rabbit symbol) is on the throttle - I was cruising at ~4 knots.
Next morning in completely glassy conditions I repeated the tests - same results as above.
Then I went up to half throttle, which got me up to 4.7-4.8 knots. NOTE we are getting up to 3/4 or maybe 4/5 of hull speed here...
More throttle had, as expected when getting close to hull speed, rapidly diminishing returns, adding at most .2 knots as I put it up to ~3/4 throttle.
The motor being new and not even close to broken in per Honda's recommendations, I didn't want to run it any higher at that point.
Third day was quite windy all day until late afternoon. 15-20+ with gusts probably to 25.
I motored out and tried the same throttle settings direct into the heavy wind and chop, and also at quartering angles.
On average I lost only .5-.6 knot of speed from the strong headwinds. So for example the 1/3 throttle that gave 4 knots in calm/glassy gave ~3.5 knots into the wind. Half throttle would give ~4.1-4.2 knots instead of 4.7-4.8. The strongest gusts would briefly take that down another .1 knot.
I then sailed for a while, with reefed main and as much jib rolled out as I felt comfortable with. Did consistently 4-5 knots, maxed out at 5.6 knots at some point.
I had expected more of a hit on speed into the wind actually, with the "small" motor. So I'm pretty happy, at 31 lbs and high simplicity and what seems like great fuel economy, with a Honda 2.3 on my M17.
cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <mailto:john@eco-living.net> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (4)
-
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Dave Scobie -
David Grah -
John Schinnerer