Hi folks: I’ve been sailing the San Juans for a few years and have a Mercury 4-stroke, 4 hp, that has served me well in getting around the islands on those windless days. However, I’ve been hearing more and more about not leaving the motor on the transom when traveling. I always have. But I’m getting a little worried about it. It weighs 75 pounds. It’s a real pain to put on and off the boat. So, I’m thinking of the 2.3 honda as an alternative and at much less the weight. Have you guys had good luck with that motor? And, is it enough power to push through the currents of the islands. Thanks, Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I'm not a Montgomery owner, rather sailing a Com-Pac Picnic Cat (14 ft 500 lb centerboard catboat) and a Horizon Cat (~19 ft 2500 lb keel/centerboard catboat) on a lake. I use a 2008 Honda 2 long shaft 20" with centrifugal clutch and swap the motor between the 2 boats. Being air-cooled it's noisy but light at 29 lbs so no impeller concerns. I throw it in the back of my Outback every time I'm done sailing. Enough power to push the big Horizon into 20 mph winds (on a lake-not significant waves or currents) with no problem. Very nice motor. I've used it for 14 seasons and it only failed to start once after 8 years because of a fouled (original) plug. I change the oil spring & fall and run Marine Sta-Bil and Sea Foam in the regular gas station gas year round. Noisy but a nice motor.Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: 2/4/22 1:53 PM (GMT-05:00) To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Honda 2.3 Hi folks:I’ve been sailing the San Juans for a few years and have a Mercury 4-stroke, 4 hp, that has served me well in getting around the islands on those windless days. However, I’ve been hearing more and more about not leaving the motor on the transom when traveling. I always have. But I’m getting a little worried about it. It weighs 75 pounds. It’s a real pain to put on and off the boat. So, I’m thinking of the 2.3 honda as an alternative and at much less the weight. Have you guys had good luck with that motor? And, is it enough power to push through the currents of the islands. Thanks, Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrushoutdoors writer and photographerFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowskyTwitter: @zimosoutdoorsThe Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/"We Can Not Control the WindBut We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I've also been quite happy with my Honda 2.3 for my M17 "Pajarita." Ditto John T's comment about using ethanol-free gas, that's what I've been doing. Usually available in "premium" grade only, there are probably apps now that will find you the nearest source. That said, the motor (recent years anyhow) is spec'd as fine with "regular" grade auto gas (typically 87 octane with 10% ethanol in these parts - west coast). There have been multiple threads here in recent years about pushing an M17 with a Honda 2.3HP. My brief summary would be: 1) really high winds (if you have to motor instead of sail for some reason) may be a bigger issue than current in terms of having enough power. Current you cannot overcome with any amount of HP, if the current is faster than somewhere close to your hull speed. Big motors will not save us from failing to pay attention to current! 2) I tested mine in moderately high winds on Fern Ridge reservoir (near Eugene, OR) some years ago and posted results here. Went out motoring in dead calm mornings, and also in what I estimated as 20 mph+ with gusts to 25+. I lost about half a knot of speed motoring into the wind vs. dead calm. That includes that I have a padded luff roller reefing jib (more windage than bare forestay). So If I was going 4 knots at half throttle in dead calm, I'd be down to 3.5 knots at half throttle into the described wind. Strongest gusts would briefly knock off another .1-.2 knots. That's not "really high winds," but is as much as I'd go out in on purpose for fun & recreation. Getting caught out in say 30+ is another issue. I figure brute force isn't going to save me then either, I need to be prepared, know where I can get to on a manageable heading (vs. wind & waves) for some shelter. You could also consider the Suzuki 2.5 hp, which comes in a long shaft since several years back. About $120 less (street price) than the Honda. Water cooled instead of air cooled if you prefer that. Claims same weight (31 lbs). cheers, John On 2/4/22 10:52, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi folks: I’ve been sailing the San Juans for a few years and have a Mercury 4-stroke, 4 hp, that has served me well in getting around the islands on those windless days. However, I’ve been hearing more and more about not leaving the motor on the transom when traveling. I always have. But I’m getting a little worried about it. It weighs 75 pounds. It’s a real pain to put on and off the boat. So, I’m thinking of the 2.3 honda as an alternative and at much less the weight. Have you guys had good luck with that motor? And, is it enough power to push through the currents of the islands. Thanks, Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
PS - re motor noise, air cooled or not - they all get noisy when you rev 'em up - if you have the 'notch' transom M17 but your motor is on a separate transom motor mount, behind the notch, you can cut the noise level in the cockpit a fair bit by shaping a piece of building insulation foam to fill the notch. One day motoring a couple years ago I propped a throw cushion up across the notch and got some noise reduction. So I took a scrap of 1.5" thick insulating foam (pink or blue or green mostly, depending on manufacturer) and shaped it to fill the notch and a few inches higher, with a groove to keep it from popping out fore/aft and snug push-fit into the notch. 2" would be better but I had some 1.5" at hand. I'll post a picture sometime soon when I get to doing a bit of maintenance on my boat. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks. My 4 hp Merc has a lot of vibration and noise. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Feb 4, 2022, at 1:20 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
PS - re motor noise, air cooled or not - they all get noisy when you rev 'em up - if you have the 'notch' transom M17 but your motor is on a separate transom motor mount, behind the notch, you can cut the noise level in the cockpit a fair bit by shaping a piece of building insulation foam to fill the notch. One day motoring a couple years ago I propped a throw cushion up across the notch and got some noise reduction. So I took a scrap of 1.5" thick insulating foam (pink or blue or green mostly, depending on manufacturer) and shaped it to fill the notch and a few inches higher, with a groove to keep it from popping out fore/aft and snug push-fit into the notch. 2" would be better but I had some 1.5" at hand. I'll post a picture sometime soon when I get to doing a bit of maintenance on my boat.
cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks for the info. Great advice. All I know is my 4 hp Merc is a drag when it comes to sailing. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Feb 4, 2022, at 1:11 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I've also been quite happy with my Honda 2.3 for my M17 "Pajarita."
Ditto John T's comment about using ethanol-free gas, that's what I've been doing. Usually available in "premium" grade only, there are probably apps now that will find you the nearest source. That said, the motor (recent years anyhow) is spec'd as fine with "regular" grade auto gas (typically 87 octane with 10% ethanol in these parts - west coast).
There have been multiple threads here in recent years about pushing an M17 with a Honda 2.3HP.
My brief summary would be:
1) really high winds (if you have to motor instead of sail for some reason) may be a bigger issue than current in terms of having enough power. Current you cannot overcome with any amount of HP, if the current is faster than somewhere close to your hull speed. Big motors will not save us from failing to pay attention to current!
2) I tested mine in moderately high winds on Fern Ridge reservoir (near Eugene, OR) some years ago and posted results here. Went out motoring in dead calm mornings, and also in what I estimated as 20 mph+ with gusts to 25+. I lost about half a knot of speed motoring into the wind vs. dead calm. That includes that I have a padded luff roller reefing jib (more windage than bare forestay). So If I was going 4 knots at half throttle in dead calm, I'd be down to 3.5 knots at half throttle into the described wind. Strongest gusts would briefly knock off another .1-.2 knots.
That's not "really high winds," but is as much as I'd go out in on purpose for fun & recreation. Getting caught out in say 30+ is another issue. I figure brute force isn't going to save me then either, I need to be prepared, know where I can get to on a manageable heading (vs. wind & waves) for some shelter.
You could also consider the Suzuki 2.5 hp, which comes in a long shaft since several years back. About $120 less (street price) than the Honda. Water cooled instead of air cooled if you prefer that. Claims same weight (31 lbs).
cheers, John
On 2/4/22 10:52, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi folks: I’ve been sailing the San Juans for a few years and have a Mercury 4-stroke, 4 hp, that has served me well in getting around the islands on those windless days. However, I’ve been hearing more and more about not leaving the motor on the transom when traveling. I always have. But I’m getting a little worried about it. It weighs 75 pounds. It’s a real pain to put on and off the boat. So, I’m thinking of the 2.3 honda as an alternative and at much less the weight. Have you guys had good luck with that motor? And, is it enough power to push through the currents of the islands. Thanks, Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
A Honda 2/2.3 is just slightly underpowered for a M17. Is fine for going in/out of marinas and for calm waters but if motoring into any wind or seas you will be going way below cruising speed (IMO about 4.75 knots is about the best motoring speed for range & noise). The Honda 2/2.3 will get the boat up to hull speed, but doesn't have enough extra power to push through a 1'+ sea or overcome the wind resistance in the rigging - above 12-15 knots. I know folks that used a Yamaha 2.5 on their M17 while cruising the Islands and did fine until the wind/seas came up. They always made it to the destination but went slow. The greater problem with the Yamaha is only available as a short shaft so the prop would cavitate when the seas came up or person went forward. On a perfectly calm day - no wind and no waves and no chop from a tide rip - a Honda 2/2.3 will get you there at 4.75 knots over water at 3/4-ish to 4/5th throttle. A 4HP motor is a great match for the M17 ... sadly no motors are now made in this power size that are light (65-75#) as all manufacturers now use a 6HP engine and just de-rate the motor for a 5hp and a 4hp rating (now weighting 90#+). There is the Tohatsu 3.5HP with 20' shaft that has an advertised weight, dry, of 43#. The only issue with them, from what I hear, is they can have carb issues. :: Dave Scobie :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 11:53 AM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi folks: I’ve been sailing the San Juans for a few years and have a Mercury 4-stroke, 4 hp, that has served me well in getting around the islands on those windless days. However, I’ve been hearing more and more about not leaving the motor on the transom when traveling. I always have. But I’m getting a little worried about it. It weighs 75 pounds. It’s a real pain to put on and off the boat. So, I’m thinking of the 2.3 honda as an alternative and at much less the weight. Have you guys had good luck with that motor? And, is it enough power to push through the currents of the islands. Thanks, Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On 2/6/22 15:22, Dave Scobie wrote:>
The Honda 2/2.3 will get the boat up to hull speed, but doesn't have enough extra power to push through a 1'+ sea or overcome the wind resistance in the rigging - above 12-15 knots.
Per my tests, in these conditions, I lost about half a knot of speed motoring into that wind and associated chop (vs. calm water/wind). Up to .7-.8 knot in gusts over 20. It's about a 15-20% loss of speed. And you'll burn more fuel too of course, for the same distance covered. My boat was lightly loaded also, not fully loaded for cruising a week or two. Probably a bit slower with a big load. But also more momentum when going thru chop. In line with what Dave says below, I was getting about 4.2 kt. at ~half-throttle in calm. The curve really steepens from there - going to ~ 3/4 throttle only gained me about .5 knot and that was pretty much hull speed in practice. Does mean there's a bit of throttle in reserve.
On a perfectly calm day - no wind and no waves and no chop from a tide rip - a Honda 2/2.3 will get you there at 4.75 knots over water at 3/4-ish to 4/5th throttle.
There is the Tohatsu 3.5HP with 20' shaft that has an advertised weight, dry, of 43#. The only issue with them, from what I hear, is they can have carb issues.
If I were going to power up from the Honda 2.3 I would get a Tohatsu 3.5 (also sold under Mercury brand). I have heard same about their carbs. Knew a guy who bought a brand new 3.5 Tohatsu and had carb problems right out of the box. Anecdotal though, don't know if it's more than the occasional one. We usually only hear the bad news, there could be 1000's of them that never had a problem. It was manageable to lift & mount etc. at the rated weight but more of a wrassle than the Honda for sure. And for sure easier than any of the 4/5/6 hp ones at 60+ lbs. minimum. Wish some others would make a true 3.5 or 4 at the low-40-lbs weight but probably not enough market to be worth it. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (4)
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andrecas -
Dave Scobie -
John Schinnerer -
Peter Zimowsky